yes Rossi had to work for this one,but it does show now that the others are getting closer this season to competing with rossi,but still -34,there's still work to do,and Cataluna will be very interesting,but hats off to rossi,he made a great race,but it did show also,rossi flat out,and the rest are not far behind. !
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jun 10 2006, 04:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Doesn't the Ducati use big bang too? Besides, as long as I've been watching Rossi, from his 250 days, there is one thing that allways has separated him from the rest and that is how early he is on power out of the turns. 2004 must have been the season he perfected that technique. Massivly underpowered he still gained early and lost little or nothing exiting the turns bit lost a lot on the long straights. So how much the Yamaha motor and chassi actually has to do with it is an open issue to me.
Look at Hayden and Pedrose and how different those bikes behave. Allthough different bikes I bet most of the difference is rider and his choise of setup.
I`m not saying that the big bang firing order is winning Rossi`s championships for him, I`m juust using it as an example of where the M1 outdoes the Ducati and the RCV. As far as I know the only other factory using the big bang firing order is Kawasaki, and their setup isn`t as good as Yamahas. I think part of the reason it was developed in the first place is so the inline four "Felt" more like a V4 or V5 to Rossi, who had come off the RCV. I don`t know how that works. How does a V4 or V5 firing order compare to a normal inline four?
Look at Hayden and Pedrose and how different those bikes behave. Allthough different bikes I bet most of the difference is rider and his choise of setup.
I`m not saying that the big bang firing order is winning Rossi`s championships for him, I`m juust using it as an example of where the M1 outdoes the Ducati and the RCV. As far as I know the only other factory using the big bang firing order is Kawasaki, and their setup isn`t as good as Yamahas. I think part of the reason it was developed in the first place is so the inline four "Felt" more like a V4 or V5 to Rossi, who had come off the RCV. I don`t know how that works. How does a V4 or V5 firing order compare to a normal inline four?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Jun 10 2006, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I`m not saying that the big bang firing order is winning Rossi`s championships for him, I`m juust using it as an example of where the M1 outdoes the Ducati and the RCV. As far as I know the only other factory using the big bang firing order is Kawasaki, and their setup isn`t as good as Yamahas. I think part of the reason it was developed in the first place is so the inline four "Felt" more like a V4 or V5 to Rossi, who had come off the RCV. I don`t know how that works. How does a V4 or V5 firing order compare to a normal inline four?
Play around with the crank and cams and you can make her fire whatever way you want to. The Yamaha and Kawasaki aren't strictly big bang engines. A true big bang configuration in a 4 cylinder be it in-line or V4 is when two cylinders fire simultaneously, mimicking the power delivery of a v-twin. Both these in-line fours have a 'close firing order, say 1,3...2,4, think of it like a very fast heartbeat. It's much easier on the crank and final drive with the huge BHP and very high revs of a 4 stroke gp bike this way instead of two huge pushes on the crank, without sacrificing tractability. It's the same basic idea with a V5. Honda's V3, if that's what the 800cc engine is will be interesting to hear, it could be an even firing high revving nutter of a motor, like a 500 mmmmmm nice!
Play around with the crank and cams and you can make her fire whatever way you want to. The Yamaha and Kawasaki aren't strictly big bang engines. A true big bang configuration in a 4 cylinder be it in-line or V4 is when two cylinders fire simultaneously, mimicking the power delivery of a v-twin. Both these in-line fours have a 'close firing order, say 1,3...2,4, think of it like a very fast heartbeat. It's much easier on the crank and final drive with the huge BHP and very high revs of a 4 stroke gp bike this way instead of two huge pushes on the crank, without sacrificing tractability. It's the same basic idea with a V5. Honda's V3, if that's what the 800cc engine is will be interesting to hear, it could be an even firing high revving nutter of a motor, like a 500 mmmmmm nice!
AFAIK Kawasaki and Yamaha use Big Bang (all 4 cyls fire in a very short space of time (less than 30º). You exchange power for traction.
Ducati fires their cylinders in pairs, they gave it a name (dual stroke or something) not quite the same, but similar.
Suzuki I guess also works same way as Ducati though I don't know, if the firing order is normal (screamer) then that really is a crap engine.
Honda doesn't use Big Bang configuration.
Ducati fires their cylinders in pairs, they gave it a name (dual stroke or something) not quite the same, but similar.
Suzuki I guess also works same way as Ducati though I don't know, if the firing order is normal (screamer) then that really is a crap engine.
Honda doesn't use Big Bang configuration.
If Ducati are using a big bang firing order why bother making a V4? Why not go for a V2, get the same effect and save money and weight. I`m missing somthing here, aren`t I Skid?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Jun 13 2006, 02:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If Ducati are using a big bang firing order why bother making a V4? Why not go for a V2, get the same effect and save money and weight. I`m missing somthing here, aren`t I Skid?
yeah richo it would lose
yeah richo it would lose
yeah, thanks for that, Erv Kanemoto.
I meant what advantage is there in having two extra cylinders (usually meaning you can have more power pulses per revolution because theyre SPACED OUT) if you got two firing at once? Isnt that the same as a decently designed twin spark twin?
I meant what advantage is there in having two extra cylinders (usually meaning you can have more power pulses per revolution because theyre SPACED OUT) if you got two firing at once? Isnt that the same as a decently designed twin spark twin?
not quite the gear head to be talkin bout this, but if it was possible to do so i think a twin gp bike would already be in existence. the weight gain is not enough of an advantage & 2 big cylinders don't seem to produce the needed output & caracteristics for racing at this level. read something to this effect somewhere. wheres the tech dept.!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Jun 13 2006, 08:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If Ducati are using a big bang firing order why bother making a V4? Why not go for a V2, get the same effect and save money and weight. I`m missing somthing here, aren`t I Skid?
You're thinking along the right lines Richo. Like I said before there ain’t no such thing in motogp as a 4 cylinder firing each pair of pots simultaneously, the crank would break in no time. The stuff that the crank is made of isn’t the same as in your average VW. It’s super-light and machined down so that it has as little mass as possible whilst still being strong enough. Everything inside a racing engine is given the same teatment. A V-twin is a bit different in that the crank is significantly shorter so weight vs. strength isn‘t as big an issue. Weight isn’t as crucial on a superbike anyway. Teo, I’m not so sure about your theory on the Yamaha and Kawasaki firing all four pots inside 30 degrees. The crank would have to be a weird shape to accomodate that, far too big for a race bike, and at high revs it would be so out of balance it would shake itself to pieces. I think one pair firing inside 30 degress and the other pair firing at the opposite end of the rev sounds more like it. The Ducati and Suzuki will be the same, bang bang………bang bang. Honda have a V5 for various reasons, one being there a far more possibilities to make different firing orders and change how the bike drives, it’s definitely not a screamer with each pot firing uniformly as the engine spins, there is some bang bang in there, that’s a fact. The obvious is 1,3,5.…..2,4. We’ll have to wait until Honda produce an RCV for the road before we find out exactly how the thing is set up. Or you could just hang around that bunch of Suzuki mechanics with a microphone hooked up to an oscilliscope at the end of the straight at Catalunya.
You're thinking along the right lines Richo. Like I said before there ain’t no such thing in motogp as a 4 cylinder firing each pair of pots simultaneously, the crank would break in no time. The stuff that the crank is made of isn’t the same as in your average VW. It’s super-light and machined down so that it has as little mass as possible whilst still being strong enough. Everything inside a racing engine is given the same teatment. A V-twin is a bit different in that the crank is significantly shorter so weight vs. strength isn‘t as big an issue. Weight isn’t as crucial on a superbike anyway. Teo, I’m not so sure about your theory on the Yamaha and Kawasaki firing all four pots inside 30 degrees. The crank would have to be a weird shape to accomodate that, far too big for a race bike, and at high revs it would be so out of balance it would shake itself to pieces. I think one pair firing inside 30 degress and the other pair firing at the opposite end of the rev sounds more like it. The Ducati and Suzuki will be the same, bang bang………bang bang. Honda have a V5 for various reasons, one being there a far more possibilities to make different firing orders and change how the bike drives, it’s definitely not a screamer with each pot firing uniformly as the engine spins, there is some bang bang in there, that’s a fact. The obvious is 1,3,5.…..2,4. We’ll have to wait until Honda produce an RCV for the road before we find out exactly how the thing is set up. Or you could just hang around that bunch of Suzuki mechanics with a microphone hooked up to an oscilliscope at the end of the straight at Catalunya.
Skidmark It was 70º not 30º, sorry my fault, anyways all of the cylinders are fired almost together that's the pure Big Bang concept. Of course the crankshaft is completely different and it requires a much bigger mass to balance the impulse of the 4 pots going pop almost together.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>HRC built several different motors in their search for that user-friendly power delivery. Finally, they settled on the Big Bang, that fired all four cylinders within 70 degrees, giving the rear tire time to regain traction between each salvo.
This is extracted from:
NSR 500
Quite a nice tech read.
Richo, the rev limit of an engine is set (among other things) by the mass of the piston, using a dual system you have 2 small masses instead of a big one, so you can rev higher than in a 1000cc V2 and still keep the advantage of the superior traction.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>HRC built several different motors in their search for that user-friendly power delivery. Finally, they settled on the Big Bang, that fired all four cylinders within 70 degrees, giving the rear tire time to regain traction between each salvo.
This is extracted from:
NSR 500
Quite a nice tech read.
Richo, the rev limit of an engine is set (among other things) by the mass of the piston, using a dual system you have 2 small masses instead of a big one, so you can rev higher than in a 1000cc V2 and still keep the advantage of the superior traction.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jun 9 2006, 06:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>there is one thing that allways has separated him from the rest and that is how early he is on power out of the turns. 2004 must have been the season he perfected that technique.
Look at Hayden and Pedrose and how different those bikes behave. Allthough different bikes I bet most of the difference is rider and his choise of setup.
Bang on what I remember from Le Mans 06. The difference to Pedrosa's was abismal, for instance. I thought then that is was sheer superior acceleration from this 06 engine. Now you suggest that is also down to his technique. I'm with richo and many here about how good the M1 is, and I believe that the engine is so damn good that Rossi stuck to it no matter what. I imagine the face of Yamaha engineers when they were rushed to design, develop and test a second chassis in less than three months time.
Look at Hayden and Pedrose and how different those bikes behave. Allthough different bikes I bet most of the difference is rider and his choise of setup.
Bang on what I remember from Le Mans 06. The difference to Pedrosa's was abismal, for instance. I thought then that is was sheer superior acceleration from this 06 engine. Now you suggest that is also down to his technique. I'm with richo and many here about how good the M1 is, and I believe that the engine is so damn good that Rossi stuck to it no matter what. I imagine the face of Yamaha engineers when they were rushed to design, develop and test a second chassis in less than three months time.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ Jun 14 2006, 01:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You're thinking along the right lines Richo. Like I said before there ain’t no such thing in motogp as a 4 cylinder firing each pair of pots simultaneously, the crank would break in no time. The stuff that the crank is made of isn’t the same as in your average VW. It’s super-light and machined down so that it has as little mass as possible whilst still being strong enough. Everything inside a racing engine is given the same teatment. A V-twin is a bit different in that the crank is significantly shorter so weight vs. strength isn‘t as big an issue. Weight isn’t as crucial on a superbike anyway. Teo, I’m not so sure about your theory on the Yamaha and Kawasaki firing all four pots inside 30 degrees. The crank would have to be a weird shape to accomodate that, far too big for a race bike, and at high revs it would be so out of balance it would shake itself to pieces. I think one pair firing inside 30 degress and the other pair firing at the opposite end of the rev sounds more like it. The Ducati and Suzuki will be the same, bang bang………bang bang. Honda have a V5 for various reasons, one being there a far more possibilities to make different firing orders and change how the bike drives, it’s definitely not a screamer with each pot firing uniformly as the engine spins, there is some bang bang in there, that’s a fact. The obvious is 1,3,5.…..2,4. We’ll have to wait until Honda produce an RCV for the road before we find out exactly how the thing is set up. Or you could just hang around that bunch of Suzuki mechanics with a microphone hooked up to an oscilliscope at the end of the straight at Catalunya.
Jeez you know your ....! I`d be so confused if it wasn`t for you.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (teomolca @ Jun 14 2006, 01:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Richo, the rev limit of an engine is set (among other things) by the mass of the piston, using a dual system you have 2 small masses instead of a big one, so you can rev higher than in a 1000cc V2 and still keep the advantage of the superior traction.
That sounds about right.
I guess vibration comes into it too
Jeez you know your ....! I`d be so confused if it wasn`t for you.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (teomolca @ Jun 14 2006, 01:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Richo, the rev limit of an engine is set (among other things) by the mass of the piston, using a dual system you have 2 small masses instead of a big one, so you can rev higher than in a 1000cc V2 and still keep the advantage of the superior traction.
That sounds about right.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (teomolca @ Jun 13 2006, 03:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Richo, the rev limit of an engine is set (among other things) by the mass of the piston, using a dual system you have 2 small masses instead of a big one, so you can rev higher than in a 1000cc V2 and still keep the advantage of the superior traction.
Very true, two smaller pistons can travel much faster than one big one which gives you a heap more revs, and importantly more scope to play around with bore vs. stroke and squeeze as much torque per cube out as possible, get yo' big bang on and you've got V twin-esque power delivery. The only reason Ducati went V2 with the 916 was because of the extra 250cc they gained in WSB, now they want more.
Liked the article on the NSR Teo, Doohan was a legend, totally.
Very true, two smaller pistons can travel much faster than one big one which gives you a heap more revs, and importantly more scope to play around with bore vs. stroke and squeeze as much torque per cube out as possible, get yo' big bang on and you've got V twin-esque power delivery. The only reason Ducati went V2 with the 916 was because of the extra 250cc they gained in WSB, now they want more.
Liked the article on the NSR Teo, Doohan was a legend, totally.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ Jun 13 2006, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How small is that
drool drool!
now picture it in V3 form!
now picture it in V3 form!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Jun 14 2006, 08:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>now picture it in V3 form!
now you gave me gas
now you gave me gas
I liked it last season where Rossi basically played with the other riders (I suppose he will, if he gets back in the lead of the championship this year). He would always come back to win, he still can.
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