Suzuki unhappy with Vinalez helping Rossi

Keshav said:

But would you not agree that less experienced riders have ALWAYS followed riders that knew that track better to see what they could learn?

And would you not also concede that even the "aliens" have ghosted behind the leading rider for the better part of the race, looking to see where the other rider is strong and where he is weak in order to plan where to make that last turn pass?

I don't see that there's any difference in doing so in FP or Quali. #2 rider is in effect scouting out his competitor, looking for a tactical advantage.

The majority of the folks here had no problem with the way that MM "raced" Rossi - using the "If it's legal, it doesn't matter if it's ethical." reasoning. The same standard should therefore be applicable to Quali, which after all, is a competition, just like the race itself.

It does seem that folks who said "You can't know for certain what was going on in MM's mind" are now claiming to know what was going on in Vinales' mind.

How say you?

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Except we are talking whether Suzuki had a right to be unhappy about the actions of their current employee. I saw no indications HRC were unhappy with how MM rode, in the last 3 races of last season anyway, but I concede they would likely in the circumstance be inclined to keep the hope for their side happy for the future.

As I said, if this report which admittedly looks dodgy is true thrn I can understand Suzuki being annoyed that a tow given by their rider to someone riding for a competitor has provided the margin that denied them a rare pole, the 1st since their return. It is not clear from this sketchy and poorly translated article whether they are of the opinion that Vinales deliberately aided VR or didn't try hard enough to deny him the tow, but if it was totally inadvertent then I agree their annoyance is less justifiable and VR took whatever advantage was available to him.

michaelm said:

Do your answer to those you claim always find fault with Rossi is to always find fault with Lorenzo?

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I don't believe much in fault nor in "guilt" fixation against a single individual, not in life, nor in social matters, nor, for the little that it's worth, in sport. The term alone and more importantly the "crowd pointing the finger" attitude are one of the most disgusting, cruel and useless things humanity can display.

I didn't say it merely cause I'm a Rossi biased supporter (just like any supporter is) and cause I didn't think it was necessary, but I have no problem accepting that, taking in consideration the years from 2010 on, Lorenzo has prooved to be, during this time, a much much MUCH better rider than Vale: numbers don't lie when they're so lapalissian, though of course the Ducati mistake may have cost Vale at least one more shot for the tenth, which still wouldn't change the substance though.

I also have no problem admitting Lorenzo is one of the two/three great geniuses of contemporary MotoGP and perhaps one of the greatest stylistical innovators of all times, and this is something people don't usually give him credit for: what I said before about the "cutting the relevancy of the contact factor", no matter how much I personally find it a little frustrating and unpleasing to watch sometimes, requires no less than a genius, and it's not by chance that Jorge is the only one able to fully execute it. In my mind NOW he stilistically is second only to Marquez, but it's sort of like comparing Kandinskij to Picasso: it's even a matter of personal taste.

What I was doing, btw, was not answering to blind criticism with opposed blind criticism - again, I can't criticise Lorenzo for being Lorenzo, I can only applaude him for that, when it comes to riding -. I was merely suggesting that sometimes people here, in order to criticise Valentino, pretend specific riding philosophies or moralistic specific school of thoughts are arbitrarily the one and only golden rule, in order then to be able to find VR out of this "accettable norm" and point it out with hate. This whole wave of "hate against towing" is the perfect example. If Lorenzo mocks and criticises other riders for getting a tow, I can find him a little obnoxious but I have no problem seeing both the psychological and pragmatic reasons behind such statements. Again, it's his style who just can't benefit in any way from such behaviours, hence the whole moralistic crusade against the "bad kids who copy other people's homework". I kinda hate it when I hear it, but I know why HE says that. Fans who claim to be objective lovers of the sport shouldn't buy it though. At least, they shouldn't act like it's true that's the norm. It's not a norm, it's not something that ethically makes you superior, it's not an unwritten rule: it's just a sign of how much you prefeer riding alone.

michaelm said:

Except we are talking whether Suzuki had a right to be unhappy about the actions of their current employee. I saw no indications HRC were unhappy with how MM rode, in the last 3 races of last season anyway, but I concede they would likely in the circumstance be inclined to keep the hope for their side happy for the future.

As I said, if this report which admittedly looks dodgy is true thrn I can understand Suzuki being annoyed that a tow given by their rider to someone riding for a competitor have provided the margin that denied them a rare pole, the 1st since their return. It is not clear from this sketchy and poorly translated article whether they are of the opinion that Vinales deliberately aided VR or didn't try hard enough to deny him the tow, but if it was totally inadvertent then I agree their annoyance is less justifiable and VR took whatever advantage was available to him.

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Can't provide a link, but I'm reasonably certain Honda did chew MM out over his tactics at Sepang. And yes - it appeared that any aid MV gave Rossi was inadvertent.

CharlieParker said:

I don't believe much in fault nor in "guilt" fixation against a single individual, not in life, nor in social matters, nor, for the little that it's worth, in sport. The term alone and more importantly the "crowd pointing the finger" attitude are one of the most disgusting, cruel and useless things humanity can display.

I didn't say it merely cause I'm a Rossi biased supporter (just like any supporter is) and cause I didn't think it was necessary, but I have no problem accepting that, taking in consideration the years from 2010 on, Lorenzo has prooved to be, during this time, a much much MUCH better rider than Vale: numbers don't lie when they're so lapalissian, though of course the Ducati mistake may have cost Vale at least one more shot for the tenth, which still wouldn't change the substance though.

I also have no problem admitting Lorenzo is one of the two/three great geniuses of contemporary MotoGP and perhaps one of the greatest stylistical innovators of all times, and this is something people don't usually give him credit for: what I said before about the "cutting the relevancy of the contact factor", no matter how much I personally find it a little frustrating and unpleasing to watch sometimes, requires no less than a genius, and it's not by chance that Jorge is the only one able to fully execute it. In my mind NOW he stilistically is second only to Marquez, but it's sort of like comparing Kandinskij to Picasso: it's even a matter of personal taste.

What I was doing, btw, was not answering to blind criticism with opposed blind criticism - again, I can't criticise Lorenzo for being Lorenzo, I can only applaude him for that, when it comes to riding -. I was merely suggesting that sometimes people here, in order to criticise Valentino, pretend specific riding philosophies or moralistic specific school of thoughts are arbitrarily the one and only golden rule, in order then to be able to find VR out of this "accettable norm" and point it out with hate. This whole wave of "hate against towing" is the perfect example. If Lorenzo mocks and criticises other riders for getting a tow, I can find him a little obnoxious but I have no problem seeing both the psychological and pragmatic reasons behind such statements. Again, it's his style who just can't benefit in any way from such behaviours, hence the whole moralistic crusade against the "bad kids who copy other people's homework". I kinda hate it when I hear it, but I know why HE says that. Fans who claim to be objective lovers of the sport shouldn't buy it though. At least, they shouldn't act like it's true that's the norm. It's not a norm, it's not something that ethically makes you superior, it's not an unwritten rule: it's just a sign of how much you prefeer riding alone.

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Another yellow tinted pile... Boring!!!

CharlieParker said:

I don't believe much in fault nor in "guilt" fixation against a single individual, not in life, nor in social matters, nor, for the little that it's worth, in sport. The term alone and more importantly the "crowd pointing the finger" attitude are one of the most disgusting, cruel and useless things humanity can display.

I didn't say it merely cause I'm a Rossi biased supporter (just like any supporter is) and cause I didn't think it was necessary, but I have no problem accepting that, taking in consideration the years from 2010 on, Lorenzo has prooved to be, during this time, a much much MUCH better rider than Vale: numbers don't lie when they're so lapalissian, though of course the Ducati mistake may have cost Vale at least one more shot for the tenth, which still wouldn't change the substance though.

I also have no problem admitting Lorenzo is one of the two/three great geniuses of contemporary MotoGP and perhaps one of the greatest stylistical innovators of all times, and this is something people don't usually give him credit for: what I said before about the "cutting the relevancy of the contact factor", no matter how much I personally find it a little frustrating and unpleasing to watch sometimes, requires no less than a genius, and it's not by chance that Jorge is the only one able to fully execute it. In my mind NOW he stilistically is second only to Marquez, but it's sort of like comparing Kandinskij to Picasso: it's even a matter of personal taste.

What I was doing, btw, was not answering to blind criticism with opposed blind criticism - again, I can't criticise Lorenzo for being Lorenzo, I can only applaude him for that, when it comes to riding -. I was merely suggesting that sometimes people here, in order to criticise Valentino, pretend specific riding philosophies or moralistic specific school of thoughts are arbitrarily the one and only golden rule, in order then to be able to find VR out of this "accettable norm" and point it out with hate. This whole wave of "hate against towing" is the perfect example. If Lorenzo mocks and criticises other riders for getting a tow, I can find him a little obnoxious but I have no problem seeing both the psychological and pragmatic reasons behind such statements. Again, it's his style who just can't benefit in any way from such behaviours, hence the whole moralistic crusade against the "bad kids who copy other people's homework". I kinda hate it when I hear it, but I know why HE says that. Fans who claim to be objective lovers of the sport shouldn't buy it though. At least, they shouldn't act like it's true that's the norm. It's not a norm, it's not something that ethically makes you superior, it's not an unwritten rule: it's just a sign of how much you prefeer riding alone.

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I have no problem with Rossi trying to get a tow if he can, just if Vinales deliberately gave him a tow because they are going to be team-mates next year rather than concentrating on his current job. If it was inadvertent as I am told then VR did no more than take an advantage that happened to be available.

My main objections are to the old Rossi fan refrain concerning his rivals not being racers like he is, or complaints about his rivals "whining", given Rossi has demonstrated he is not so keen on having his own riding tactics reversed on him, and exceeded any whining Jorge or his other rivals have ever done by orders of magnitude last year.

Everything Rossi does gets 10x the attention vs if it was another rider. There's far more talk about Rossi in the slipstream than Iannone tucked in behind Lorenzo for almost the entire Q2 session! Iannone probably would've been on pole if he hadn't stopped after he improved his time thinking it would be good enough. When Lorenzo was leaving the pits the 2nd time, he hit the brakes to force Iannone to pass him. But Iannone still got back behind Lorenzo and used him again and the announcers were praising him for it!! Aleix Espargaro was tucked in so close to Marquez I thought there was going to be contact. After they crossed the line, Marquez didn't even seem to care as they both gave each other a thumbs up and shook hands.

What everyone has missed about the race itself was Lorenzo's setup. He'd completely turned his settings upside down so he could outbrake Rossi. It worked, Rossi couldn't outbrake him without running wide.
The downside for him was he couldn't corner anywhere near his normal speed. There's every chance that he could've done a disappearing act if he'd stuck to his normal setup, it was the reason the pace was slower and Marquez was able to close in. It didn't matter anyway so he was vindicated, having set up his bike to defend from Rossi's late braking.
As for riders getting a tow during practice and qualifying , more and more riders are latching onto Lorenzo, Marquez and Vinales as they're seen as guys who can get good solo laps around circuits.
It is a shame Rossi chooses to do it as the guy surely has more track knowledge than anyone. Also it's ironic as he used to rage at riders following him, indeed he broke his leg because he slowed at Mugello in practice to remonstrate with a follower, when he resumed his pace he highsided because his tyre had cooled and lost grip. An irony indeed...

yamfan said:

What everyone has missed about the race itself was Lorenzo's setup. He'd completely turned his settings upside down so he could outbrake Rossi. It worked, Rossi couldn't outbrake him without running wide.
The downside for him was he couldn't corner anywhere near his normal speed. There's every chance that he could've done a disappearing act if he'd stuck to his normal setup, it was the reason the pace was slower and Marquez was able to close in. It didn't matter anyway so he was vindicated, having set up his bike to defend from Rossi's late braking.
As for riders getting a tow during practice and qualifying , more and more riders are latching onto Lorenzo, Marquez and Vinales as they're seen as guys who can get good solo laps around circuits.
It is a shame Rossi chooses to do it as the guy surely has more track knowledge than anyone. Also it's ironic as he used to rage at riders following him, indeed he broke his leg because he slowed at Mugello in practice to remonstrate with a follower, when he resumed his pace he highsided because his tyre had cooled and lost grip. An irony indeed...

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That's interesting, I hadn't heard anything about Lorenzo doing that with his setup. I would think it would be more beneficial to use a setup that would allow him to break away from Rossi and just maintain the gap. Sure, he was doing well preventing Rossi from outbraking him, but had Rossi's engine not blown he would've had 16 laps to keep trying. Even a not-so-clean block pass could've resulted in Rossi getting in the lead. Risky strategy, but I guess it worked out.

moto vudu said:

That's interesting, I hadn't heard anything about Lorenzo doing that with his setup. I would think it would be more beneficial to use a setup that would allow him to break away from Rossi and just maintain the gap. Sure, he was doing well preventing Rossi from outbraking him, but had Rossi's engine not blown he would've had 16 laps to keep trying. Even a not-so-clean block pass could've resulted in Rossi getting in the lead. Risky strategy, but I guess it worked out.

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It was mentioned in an interview with mcn, Lorenzo said it made his bike harder to turn and he was tired when Marquez attacked at the end of the race. He felt lucky to have won and praised Marquez for his riding and commiserated Rossi for his woes too.
I take it you have no issues with my opinions on the riders getting a tow lately. Don't you find it strange that nowadays it's all accepted as normal, but when Rossi was the one getting followed around (much to his fury), that the riders were lazy, out of order and should work out how to get a fast lap for themselves. Those were Rossi's opinions in 2010...

yamfan said:

It was mentioned in an interview with mcn, Lorenzo said it made his bike harder to turn and he was tired when Marquez attacked at the end of the race. He felt lucky to have won and praised Marquez for his riding and commiserated Rossi for his woes too.
I take it you have no issues with my opinions on the riders getting a tow lately. Don't you find it strange that nowadays it's all accepted as normal, but when Rossi was the one getting followed around (much to his fury), that the riders were lazy, out of order and should work out how to get a fast lap for themselves. Those were Rossi's opinions in 2010...

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I wouldn't hold anyone to opinions they had 6 years ago. Some of the opinions I had 6 minutes ago I no longer agree with. lol

moto vudu said:

I wouldn't hold anyone to opinions they had 6 years ago. Some of the opinions I had 6 minutes ago I no longer agree with. lol

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I know what you mean buddy, but it throws into perspective how blinkered the idiots are who criticise Lorenzo's stance on getting a tow, when Rossi used to do it even more vocally doesn't it. Lol
I've seen Rossi pull alongside riders and remonstrate with them over it, just like Lorenzo, but Rossi was praised for it. Lorenzo gets pilloried and called a whiner. Go figure...
Time I slept anyway, work in 4 hrs[emoji22]

yamfan said:

It was mentioned in an interview with mcn, Lorenzo said it made his bike harder to turn and he was tired when Marquez attacked at the end of the race. He felt lucky to have won and praised Marquez for his riding and commiserated Rossi for his woes too.
I take it you have no issues with my opinions on the riders getting a tow lately. Don't you find it strange that nowadays it's all accepted as normal, but when Rossi was the one getting followed around (much to his fury), that the riders were lazy, out of order and should work out how to get a fast lap for themselves. Thoseasically with his old attitude were Rossi's opinions in 2010...

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I go with his old attitude mostly, I don't think riders are at all obliged to give tows, and it seemed it was being regarded as illegal in moto 3 under the old penalty points system. I don't have much problem with team-mates willingly giving tows, and if the tow in question was inadvertent and didn't interfere with Vinales I don't have much trouble with it.

I think riders like Lorenzo and formerly Stoner are pushing the limits most of the time in practice and qualifying to find the last fraction for the perfect lap, and have different riding styles and take different lines than many, so I can understand them being annoyed by having another rider up on them, particularly if the rider is a back marker regarded as untrustworthy; Stoner in particular was famously almost crashing on every corner to get his bike through corners at a competitive pace when riding for Ducati.

I am amazed that so many here are dumbfounded and righteously indignant that Vale has behaved in pretty much the way human nature studies predict he would over the course of his career: Obtain the pinnacle of your desire and corresponding power that is associated; Consolidate and wield said power over time to entrench your dominance; Develop an acutely narcissistic point of view; Base decision-making/emotions on your powerful, narcissistic position.

It is the standard play-book of success on Wall Street, in corporations, in academia, in politricks, in military campaigns... It is the natural order of power and success unless it is kept in check by strict rules specifically designed to encourage competition (or equality) over monopoly. Is the individual to blame for grabbing the brass ring and not letting go, if that is our nature, or should we look towards the institution governing the activity to see if they have taken the necessary precautions to ensure their bailiwick offers equal opportunity to all, given man's proclivity to monopolisation?

It is patently obvious that Rossi's power was allowed to rampage unchecked for years because it dovetailed with the needs of the overseers... who would have ....... guessed... astounding revelation. Not. Also not much of a surprise that the Rossi's world-view would be distorted by the massive privilege he has enjoyed over time and would take to blaming others (let's call them the 'powerless' even if they do have a modicum of power) for their own failures, real or perceived.

MotoGP's issues are the result of institutional failure/bias NOT of predicable human nature. All the bitching in the world about Rossi and his tenure at the top of MGP will change nothing moving forward other than guaranteeing another prince or clown set upon the throne. The way to meaningful change in the future equality of competition in MGP is to criticise the benefactors of the inequality (DORNA and its investors/stakeholders) POLICIES, not by meaninglessly bitching about the behaviour of the yellow clown currently acting as the face of the perpetrator of the systemic inequality of opportunity.

Equalising policy ideas for DORNA:
1. All changes to tyre specs must be initiated by riders (or designated rider rep) and voted on and approved by ⅔ of the grid;
2. Race weekend all tyres are thrown in a cement mixer and randomised. Teams use schoolyard-pick to choose tyres from the mixer;
3. All established manufacturers must field 6 identical factory bikes (2 each for 3 riders) and a minimum of 4 satellite (last years) bikes (2 each for 2 riders). No factory teams. No factory mechanics or electronics or tyre guys in the pits - teams must hire their own crews. Upgrades must be provided to all riders at the same time;
4. Roll FP4 and both QP into one long session - 45 mins on Sat AT RACE TIME;
5. Testing every Mon after race weekend;
6. Teams rotate through Moto3, Moto2, and MotoGP like EPL;
7. Some form of profit sharing for poorer teams;
8. Riders or rider reps on all decision-making boards and committees.


Rant over! Ha!

a video is worth 1000 words lol

mark419ny said:

a video is worth 1000 words lol

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.

stay on topic rossi drone. this is about following people around the track not about a race in 2008 . sad screen name too i bet you dont even know the history about stoner and rossi . you know the one where stoner was so good coming up that rossi had yamaha not sign him so he wouldnt have to be number 2 rider. look it up then come back or the one where he threatened to quit because stoner was too good so rossi got his own tires to compete.

so you dont have to watch the entire thing start at 1:20 rossi he has the best bike and is the best rider

mark419ny said:

stay on topic rossi drone. this is about following people around the track not about a race in 2008 . sad screen name too i bet you dont even know the history about stoner and rossi . you know the one where stoner was so good coming up that rossi had yamaha not sign him so he wouldnt have to be number 2 rider. look it up then come back or the one where he threatened to quit because stoner was too good so rossi got his own tires to compete.

so you dont have to watch the entire thing start at 1:20 rossi he has the best bike and is the best rider

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Since were exchanging videos about quitters.....

9TimeGod said:

.

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You mean that incident where Rossi made a riding error, went off track to maintain position, and would have torpedoed Stoner taking them both out in a high speed collision were it not for quick evasive action by Stoner in moving from where he was negotiating the corner normally (for him anyway, which was much faster than anyone else could manage on a Ducati) to the other side of the track)?.

michaelm said:

You mean that incident where Rossi made a riding error, went off track to maintain position, and would have torpedoed Stoner taking them both out in a high speed collision were it not for quick evasive action by Stoner in moving from where he was negotiating the corner normally (for him anyway, which was much faster than anyone else could manage on a Ducati) to the other side of the track)?.

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Thats a lot of words to use for what Vale would refer to as a "bitchslap"