Suzuki unhappy with Vinalez helping Rossi

moto vudu said:

If Rossi wasn't faster than Vinales, he never would've caught up to him to be able to slipstream him on the straight! That's the point. You're acting like Rossi only got pole because he was in Vinales' slipstream getting towed around the lap. He didn't catch Vinales in acceleration zones because of a tow, he closed the distance in all the braking zones. The slipstream on the straight to get under the last bit of time to get pole was the payoff for excellent riding earlier in the lap.

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Correct MV but without that draft on the straight the chances of him getting pole are reduced and I suspect that this is what has irritated Suzuki if the story is accurate and/or correct, as after all it would have been their first team pole for many years.

Personally, I have no real issue with drafting although I do understand the issues that many do, but my take is that as it is legal in the race thence I fully expect people to draft in practice even if it is a frowned on activity. Sure some people will gain an advantage by jumping grid spots and what not but really, if the rider cannot maintain the pace they will not stay in the position anyway come race day

Draft = pull down a long straight; tow = pull for a complete lap.

truth is: getting a tow properly is smart and if Maverick was ok with it who gives a ....?

Maverick and Valentino only prooved that in some occations they might help each other with a little detail such as one tenth in a qualy. Big deal. We're talking about nothing here. And whatever we're talking about, we're talking about it only cause they act it simply, clearly and under the sun. Shameless, some might say. I say they have nothing to be ashamed about, and I'd say it even for JLo if he'd get a tow from MM or anyone else.

CharlieParker said:

truth is: getting a tow properly is smart and if Maverick was ok with it who gives a ....?

Maverick and Valentino only prooved that in some occations they might help each other with a little detail such as one tenth in a qualy. Big deal. We're talking about nothing here. And whatever we're talking about, we're talking about it only cause they act it simply, clearly and under the sun. Shameless, some might say. I say they have nothing to be ashamed about, and I'd say it even for JLo if he'd get a tow from MM or anyone else.

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If they are team mates YES! This is the same chickenshit he accuse Marc & Jorge of last year at Sepang without proof. But it is OK for maverick=Suzuki & him flossi=yamaha, different manufacturer to help each other blatantly. Another rossi do as I say but dont do as I do. Or in other words I can do it, but you cant because I'm the great rossi.

Compare: one-tenth-in-a-qualy defining alliance strategy vs three-races-and-a-championship defining strategy. I know you don't believe the latter happened, but still, on a theorical/conceptual level, can you compare them?

Answer is hell no. Cause, funnily enough, no matter how much Rossi needs to be pictured as the symbol of lack of ethics, it's only the second type of behaviour that is indeed unquestionably unethical.

CharlieParker said:

truth is: getting a tow properly is smart and if Maverick was ok with it who gives a ....?
.

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Because Viñalez is in a position to voice his displeasure?

It prevented SUZUKI from a pole. Not just Viñalez. It's not just Viñalez who needs to give a ..... He's not the .... who is paying to be in MotoGP. But he is getting paid to make Suzuki look good.

He didn't have a say in Rossi using him as a whore...maybe, unless he was tacitly ok with it. He wasn't going to say, that was chickenshit of Rossi either.

Getting a tow is not honorable in Qual. No matter how much you guys try now to sugar coat it. "Smart"? Yes, so is punting a guy for a win. Honorable? No.

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

Jumkie said:

Because Viñalez is in a position to voice his displeasure?

It prevented SUZUKI from a pole. Not just Viñalez. It's not just Viñalez who needs to give a ..... He's not the .... who is paying to be in MotoGP. But he is getting paid to make Suzuki look good.

He didn't have a say in Rossi using him as a whore...maybe, unless he was tacitly ok with it. He wasn't going to say, that was chickenshit of Rossi either.

Getting a tow is not honorable in Qual. No matter how much you guys try now to sugar coat it.

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

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Oh give us a break, if SUZUKI was that worried about it... why did they NOT reprimand MV after he got a TOW from Rossi in the first half of Q2?

If teams don't want any slipstreaming during qualifying they need to petition for MotoGP to use WSBK's old superpole format of sending one rider out at a time. That's the most fair format for the riders, but the most boring for the viewers.

Anytime you send a gaggle of riders out on track at the same time, there will be slipstreams (some intentional and some not). That's why it's ridiculous for JL to make sure he's the first one out on track then ..... about riders being behind him. NEWSFLASH, if you don't want riders behind you as you start your first lap... leave the pits LAST not FIRST.

CharlieParker said:

Compare: one-tenth-in-a-qualy defining alliance strategy vs three-races-and-a-championship defining strategy. I know you don't believe the latter happened, but still, on a theorical/conceptual level, can you compare them?.

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Helping is Helping irrespective of when it occurs or the end outcome

What is alleged to have occurred last year did NOT result in either HRC or Yamaha alleging that either of their riders may have acted unethically (either by direct statement of imputation) to assist another rider. The allegations have been and remain unproven within the court of man, although I readily accept that there are many who believe it so as it was spoken as fact not suspicion

The point is that a few grid positions may make the difference between first corner carnage or clearing that first corner carnage so the few tenths gained could well have as large an impact as the alleged three race conspiracy.

Once should not diminish the severity of assistance purely because now it may well be falling favourably to the other side of the coin

Jumkie said:

Because Viñalez is in a position to voice his displeasure?

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.... no lest he then become subject to Ianonne like displeasure that would be quickly shutdown, or lest some clause be found in his contract or a wall be readied.

Jumkie said:

It prevented SUZUKI from a pole. Not just Viñalez. It's not just Viñalez who needs to give a ..... He's not the .... who is paying to be in MotoGP. But he is getting paid to make Suzuki look good.

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And they should be pissed if they feel it deliberate or even culpable (after all, we have seen many riders pull out of a lap when riders jump on the tail)

Jumkie said:

Getting a tow is not honorable in Qual. No matter how much you guys try now to sugar coat it. "Smart"? Yes, so is punting a guy for a win. Honorable? No.

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Honestly Jum, I fully see where the 'anti' brigade come from with this but my take is like it used to be at cricket practice (backe when I could play) where I would get guys to bowl bouncers to me as I would have to face them in a game, in a race they will have riders slipstreaming or drafting so they need to become accustomed and build tactics. Again though, in qualifying of you are the towie, you will be the one who loses however and thus I fully see the issues.

moto vudu said:

Anytime you send a gaggle of riders out on track at the same time, there will be slipstreams (some intentional and some not). That's why it's ridiculous for JL to make sure he's the first one out on track then ..... about riders being behind him. NEWSFLASH, if you don't want riders behind you as you start your first lap... leave the pits LAST not FIRST.

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So MV, why the dig at JL?

And to explain the why go first, to borrow the explanation from Stoner (and it makes sense) although I am paraphrasing as I cannot find the direct quote.

'When you go out first you do not have to fight your way through slower riders who may well be hanging around for a tow, so you tend to be able to get some good laps in without issues with others slowing your laps.'

Sure he is a rider that was capable of a blinding out lap but essentially he is correct, to go early gives clear track, to go late you simply do not know.

Gaz said:

So MV, why the dig at JL?

And to explain the why go first, to borrow the explanation from Stoner (and it makes sense) although I am paraphrasing as I cannot find the direct quote.

'When you go out first you do not have to fight your way through slower riders who may well be hanging around for a tow, so you tend to be able to get some good laps in without issues with others slowing your laps.'

Sure he is a rider that was capable of a blinding out lap but essentially he is correct, to go early gives clear track, to go late you simply do not know.

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JL is not above criticism from me. I know he wants a clear track in front of him and that's why he makes sure he's first, but he still complains about riders behind him. He can't have it both ways. Give up having a clear track in front or deal with riders directly behind you.

From my experience if you tow (follow a rider on a hot lap) in club racing here it's frowned upon especially if it's blatant like it was in this case. It is chicken .... tactics.

At the end of the day though it's Sunday that matters, and for all those practice starts the media were slobbering over on Friday, the old man still got a lesson how to start by his team mate come race day.

Also this .... will soon stop if Maverick beats him at yam.

Was the tow lap MV's best? And was MV's best better than Rossi's second best?


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moto vudu said:

JL is not above criticism from me. I know he wants a clear track in front of him and that's why he makes sure he's first, but he still complains about riders behind him. He can't have it both ways. Give up having a clear track in front or deal with riders directly behind you.

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You mean like complaining or creating a conspiracy theory of rider A helping rider B and then having rider Z help you but not complain of it?

JL complains as do ALL other faster riders, but because he is quote worthy and the victim of what would at times seem a media driven need to sell copy, he is more often quoted than the others.

Gaz said:

You mean like complaining or creating a conspiracy theory of rider A helping rider B and then having rider Z help you but not complain of it?

JL complains as do ALL other faster riders, but because he is quote worthy and the victim of what would at times seem a media driven need to sell copy, he is more often quoted than the others.

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JL can voice his opinions just as Rossi voices his. The same way you and others criticize Rossi's opinions, the rest of us can call JL out on his BS.

moto vudu said:

JL can voice his opinions just as Rossi voices his. The same way you and others criticize Rossi's opinions, the rest of us can call JL out on his BS.

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BS or opinions?

Are you calling that what he does as ........ ?

On one hand you say that he has the right but then you want to call what he does as BS (why is only one opinion BS under these guidelines)?

Which is it?

Is he entitled to an unpopular (amongst some) opinion or action or not?

BS is Australia means fallacy, lie, make it up (and a hell of a lot of other things) so VR is as guilty as JL is he not?

Gaz said:

BS or opinions?

Are you calling that what he does as ........ ?

On one hand you say that he has the right but then you want to call what he does as BS?

Which is it?

Is he entitled to an unpopular (amongst some) opinion or action or not?

BS is Australia means fallacy, lie, make it up (and a hell of a lot of other things) so VR is as guilty as JL is he not?

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He has the right to his opinions just like I have the right to mine. My opinion can be that some of JL's opinions are BS. Sure, VR has some BS opinions as well.

moto vudu said:

He has the right to his opinions just like I have the right to mine. My opinion can be that some of JL's opinions are BS. Sure, VR has some BS opinions as well.

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All of these guys have a load of ........ in their worlds as afterall, anyone who calls them out on it will not be in that world for long (may I use ex-managers and team technicians as examples).

IMO only, but I have no issues with JL's complaints regarding tows, just as I do not with respects to VR having a tow/draft that likely gifted him pole (we shall never really know).

IMO, BS has been thrown around a lot in the air for a number of season and has gotten particularly strong lately as riders are positioned by the media to be seen as on the side of good, or on the side of the axis of evil. The media needs good versus evil and so even if it is not found or not around, it will be generated as it has been for years.

Without JL around (using his example) there would be little for people who are so aligned to whinge about (just as when VR leaves the sport, who/what will replace him for angst) as I cannot see it being Vinales (he is good, but I do not feel that he is there yet)

Richy56 said:

From my experience if you tow (follow a rider on a hot lap) in club racing here it's frowned upon especially if it's blatant like it was in this case. It is chicken .... tactics.

At the end of the day though it's Sunday that matters, and for all those practice starts the media were slobbering over on Friday, the old man still got a lesson how to start by his team mate come race day.

Also this .... will soon stop if Maverick beats him at yam.

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I didn't see qualifying and can't really comment on the lap itself.

The issue for me is whether this report is correct, and it looks fairly flimsy.
If it is then Suzuki are of course entitled to be annoyed, Vinales is currently contracted to them, not that contracts seem to mean much to him, and if it is the stage of qualifying where fastest times are being set he should be concentrating on his own qualifying rather than helping riders who are currently riding for an opposition team, and if he had the pace for a high grid position then Valentino shouldn't have been catching up to him at that time I wouldn't have thought.

The report looks rather dubious anyway though as I said.

michaelm said:

The report looks rather dubious anyway though as I said.

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Certainly the website which published the report is not a go-to source for truth in motorsports reporting... I have seen no 'reputable' sites publishing the same and of yet...

CharlieParker said:

Towing is chickenshit. So is copying during math tests at school (all the rights for this analogy belong to the very own master of ethics gentleman Jorge. Only thing is: he didn't mean it as a joke... oh, the good kid he must have been...). I would also add as another valuable example losing virginity before marriage. Chickenshit at its finest as well.

Real racing MEN (unlike the chickenshits) always do it without the help of anyone on the track. Always on their own strictly with their own effort! During all practices, qualies, races, and stages of the season. Championship defining moments too, of course! Forever alone JLo.

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How the .... is losing your virginity before marriage chickenshit?

After your first sentence you could have stopped. The rest of the post served to detract from your first point.