Suzuki unhappy with Vinalez helping Rossi

Gaz said:

Nah Dubs, you are trolling again with your anti-CS views

As I have said many times, or each time you bring up the BS about CS, I will happily take Krop's view which is factored on paddock feedback that CS has a unique ability to describe the manner in which a bike is behaving, to the degree that Krop and other journalists would ask a question of CS where they want a detailed description of the action.

Krop and others have relayed stores of CS' innate ability including the time he took a Ducati out and came straight in, describing to the team the feeling that he was getting from the motor and advising them that something was amiss. The tech checked all telemetry, data and could find nothing so told him to go back out. Half way through the lap, the motor shat itself ............

That is but one story as Nakamoto has relayed similar as have Suppo, Preziosi and Puig to name a few.

Given that these people are in the paddock as are the journalists who have relayed the stories I suspect that they are closer than you or I and such in better position to make the call.

If CS can describe such things that telemetry and data cannot, or simply describe in detail the actions of how tyres flex and what not, then he is more than able to give the feedback required for the Factory to use and develop as, after all, the rider gives feedback whilst the factory develops.

Sure some bikes he has ridden did not produce the same results year on year but does that philosophy also not make VR a poor developer as he had years where he won a title then did not the following year, or what of Lorenzo or Marquez who have similar?

I have NFI as to whether CS is a good developer, but from media and motogp insider reports, his feedback was second to none in terms of what he could identify and describe, thus he more than played his part.

Let us also not forget that he identified the motor issue at HRC but was ignored in favour of Marquez's feedback (confirmed by HRC) with regards the 2015 Honda.

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I've had hand jobs where the telemetry and data said everything was right but I knew something wasn't right and I got rug burn. My point is that Stoners data did not help other riders or development go in the right direction. He could see this and feel that but they couldn't turn that into data that helped develop the bike anywhere he went. For what ever reason. My point was always that his style has so different it hurt development. I don't know why. But hopefully Ducati is throwing his info now straight into the trash.

MdubSTYLIE said:

I've had hand jobs where the telemetry and data said everything was right but I knew something wasn't right and I got rug burn. My point is that Stoners data did not help other riders or development go in the right direction. He could see this and feel that but they couldn't turn that into data that helped develop the bike anywhere he went. For what ever reason. My point was always that his style has so different it hurt development. I don't know why. But hopefully Ducati is throwing his info now straight into the trash.

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Well he had a "Special" way of riding that couldn't be replicated. That could be the reason his telemetry was never useful to other riders. But to apportion the blame on him for riding it in a special way to overcome the problems of the bike is blasphemy.

MM won on a bike in 2013 and 2014 which Casey gave up in 2012. That contradicts the theory on its head.

Also he did say in 2014 (as a test rider) that the engine had a pretty aggressive character and look where Honda finds itself in 2016.

The direction is always right as long as you can win

Jakrap said:

Well he had a "Special" way of riding that couldn't be replicated. That could be the reason his telemetry was never useful to other riders. But to apportion the blame on him for riding it in a special way to overcome the problems of the bike is blasphemy.

MM won on a bike in 2013 and 2014 which Casey gave up in 2012. That contradicts the theory on its head.

Also he did say in 2014 (as a test rider) that the engine had a pretty aggressive character and look where Honda finds itself in 2016.

The direction is always right as long as you can win

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I wouldn't say I blame him. Its a tough thing. You can't really expect the engineers or data experts to throw his data in the trash. I'm just making the observation that bikes seem to go backwards when he is involved.


I congratulate you on mentioning someone besides Rossi. I think very highly of MM's riding more so than Stoner even that would be why. Many people agree that Marc is overriding the bike to get that much out of it. Seriously thank you for taking this somewhere besides Rossi v Stroner.

MdubSTYLIE said:

I've had hand jobs where the telemetry and data said everything was right but I knew something wasn't right and I got rug burn. My point is that Stoners data did not help other riders or development go in the right direction. He could see this and feel that but they couldn't turn that into data that helped develop the bike anywhere he went. For what ever reason. My point was always that his style has so different it hurt development. I don't know why. But hopefully Ducati is throwing his info now straight into the trash.

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No offense dude, but your posts on this subject are in bopper territory.

MdubSTYLIE said:

I wouldn't say I blame him. Its a tough thing. You can't really expect the engineers or data experts to throw his data in the trash. I'm just making the observation that bikes seem to go backwards when he is involved.


I congratulate you on mentioning someone besides Rossi. I think very highly of MM's riding more so than Stoner even that would be why. Many people agree that Marc is overriding the bike to get that much out of it. Seriously thank you for taking this somewhere besides Rossi v Stroner.

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Again, the RCV didn't go backwards till 2015 when they ...... up with the engine design. Stoner left since by his own admission they weren't listening to what he was telling them.

Like I already said, you ignore 4 years of the bike being a title contender in favor of one year where they didn't listen to him. Your continuing to imply a cause and effect that doesn't exist.

JPSLotus said:

No offense dude, but your posts on this subject are in bopper territory.

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There is a difference between thinking stoner is not great nor any good for the sport and being a bopper. I don't think Stoner could beat Marc on equal equipment but he would wipe the floor with Rossi. Does that make me a bopper?

JPSLotus said:

Again, the RCV didn't go backwards till 2015 when they ...... up with the engine design. Stoner left since by his own admission they weren't listening to what he was telling them.

Like I already said, you ignore 4 years of the bike being a title contender in favor of one year where they didn't listen to him. Your continuing to imply a cause and effect that doesn't exist.

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You are talking about the four years with Marc right?

MdubSTYLIE said:

There is a difference between thinking stoner is not great nor any good for the sport and being a bopper. I don't think Stoner could beat Marc on equal equipment but he would wipe the floor with Rossi. Does that make me a bopper?

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I've been reading your posts on Stoner and the bikes going backwards (supposedly) under his watch in the alternating voices of VR and Burgess.

MdubSTYLIE said:

You are talking about the four years with Marc right?

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4 seasons of 2011 thru 2014 where you claim the bike went backwards even though nothing even backs that ridiculous claim. Then you had 2015 where Stoner warned about the engine, but HRC went ahead with it because of MM's input.

MdubSTYLIE said:

I've had hand jobs where the telemetry and data said everything was right but I knew something wasn't right and I got rug burn. My point is that Stoners data did not help other riders or development go in the right direction. He could see this and feel that but they couldn't turn that into data that helped develop the bike anywhere he went. For what ever reason. My point was always that his style has so different it hurt development. I don't know why. But hopefully Ducati is throwing his info now straight into the trash.

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I see your point but would counter it, as I often have with such type of commentary with the situation that racers are not there to develop bikes and in many ways, nor are the test riders.

What they are there to do when testing is ride the bike at the limits requested by the engineers in order to produce and gather data surrounding a set of circumstances. Personally, I suspect that in availability terms there is no better option than CS right now to get on a bike and wring it's neck to a level where it can be compared to the race pace that is so required for testing of components etc

The data then needs to be interpreted by the engineers (who will also factor in the comments from rider) and then determine if the data shows improvement or decreased performance factored on what is being targeted with the test.

Your point about the unique style or ability is true, but that does not make him a poor development rider as the job of the engineers is to interpret the data and action accordingly. His problem (admittedly) is that his unique style (as commented on by many) as well as his innate sense of machine (again, commented by many) may produce results not immediately apparent on data or transferable to a meaningful result, but again, this is where the engineers come to play

My opinion only, but stories about of him asking for things whilst at Ducati that were not to be provided until the more recent years where there was improvement. To me, the issue is more around engineering direction and obstinate management of the factories involved than a lack of ability on his or the engineers part.

As for 2012/2013 whilst he had input into those bikes there were also late notice changes to rules, weight and/or tyre compounds that caused a flow on and impacted HRC harder than other teams who were either ready for them or more likely, more adaptable with a good management attitude towards sudden change

JPSLotus said:

I've been reading your posts on Stoner and the bikes going backwards (supposedly) under his watch in the alternating voices of VR and Burgess.



4 seasons of 2011 thru 2014 where you claim the bike went backwards even though nothing even backs that ridiculous claim. Then you had 2015 where Stoner warned about the engine, but HRC went ahead with it because of MM's input.

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The 2012 bike that Stoner helped develope was according to him the best bike he had ever ridden, including the one he dominated 2011. Then they changed regulations and tires at the last minute and we know how that went.

MdubSTYLIE said:

There is a difference between thinking stoner is not great nor any good for the sport and being a bopper. I don't think Stoner could beat Marc on equal equipment but he would wipe the floor with Rossi. Does that make me a bopper?

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I am not sure Stoner could beat MM on equal equipment either. It would have been really nice to find out; Nakamoto himself said something along the lines that MM had faster reflexes, but Stoner was a genius on a bike. I tend to think they have similar speed, but MM has more enduring focus and greater resilience; Stoner focused as he was in 2007 and 2011 would be hard for anyone to beat though imo.

You are not a bopper at all, you just don't like Stoner, an opinion to which you are obviously entitled.

michaelm said:

I am not sure Stoner could beat MM on equal equipment either. It would have been really nice to find out; Nakamoto himself said something along the lines that MM had faster reflexes, but Stoner was a genius on a bike. I tend to think they have similar speed, but MM has more enduring focus and greater resilience; Stoner focused as he was in 2007 and 2011 would be hard for anyone to beat though imo.

You are not a bopper at all, you just don't like Stoner, an opinion to which you are obviously entitled.

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But I do always enjoy replies from the likes of you and gaz. They are always full of excellent information.

MdubSTYLIE said:

But I do always enjoy replies from the likes of you and gaz. They are always full of excellent information.

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