Suzuki unhappy with Vinalez helping Rossi

yamfan · May 29, 2016

michaelm said:
I didn't see qualifying and can't really comment on the lap itself.

The issue for me is whether this report is correct, and it looks fairly flimsy.

If it is then Suzuki are of course entitled to be annoyed, Vinales is currently contracted to them, not that contracts seem to mean much to him, and if it is the stage of qualifying where fastest times are being set he should be concentrating on his own qualifying rather than helping riders who are currently riding for an opposition team, and if he had the pace for a high grid position then Valentino shouldn't have been catching up to him at that time I wouldn't have thought.

The report looks rather dubious anyway though as I said.

A point which many seem to forget is that riders gaining a tow don't just benefit from slipstream, they gain valuable time and experience of the track in that moment (grip level, safe braking point, where to pick the bike up and accelerate, best line through corners etc etc.) by using the rider in front as a reference marker. The faster the rider, the better marker for the tow.
In Qatar when Rossi was clearly trying to use Lorenzo (and also piss him off), once Lorenzo spotted him and waved him by, he immediately latched onto MV for his final fast run. Since Qatar this has been repeated several times this seaso, just like the Ducati's last year did with Jorge.
It's not illegal by any stretch but is a bit distasteful and disrespectful to the towee, but if the towee is a willing participant, he is leaving himself open to criticism such as MV is getting now.
I'd go as far as to say if Lorenzo was doing the following of another fast rider, Rossi and his fans would be up in arms and calling for rule changes.

Jumkie · May 29, 2016

yamfan said:
I'd go as far as to say if Lorenzo was doing the following of another fast rider, Rossi and his fans would be up in arms and calling for rule changes.

Haha, they'd be saying how Lorenzo is benefiting from Rossi’s development and needs to get off the ..., do .... on his own. Oh wait, that's exactly what Rossi is doing.

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

michaelm · May 29, 2016

CharlieParker said:
Compare: one-tenth-in-a-qualy defining alliance strategy vs three-races-and-a-championship defining strategy. I know you don't believe the latter happened, but still, on a theorical/conceptual level, can you compare them?

Answer is hell no. Cause, funnily enough, no matter how much Rossi needs to be pictured as the symbol of lack of ethics, it's only the second type of behaviour that is indeed unquestionably unethical.

One actually happened and the other didn't, particularly at PI, where again the ludicrous conspiracy theory, of which no-one had the slightest suspicion prior to that Sepang press conference was that MM on an HRC bike, while his team-mate who won 2 of the last 5 races of the season (EDIT last 4 actually, including the race before and the next race) was languishing in 5th, controlled the finishing order from 2nd to 4th and didn't give full effort in a race he actually won.

Any complaint Jorge might care to make pales into insignificance compared to that nonsense, which is why you guys have zero credibility in your complaints about JL. Please keep hating him, it only increases his determination.

Gaz · May 29, 2016

Mick D said:
Certainly the website which published the report is not a go-to source for truth in motorsports reporting... I have seen no 'reputable' sites publishing the same and of yet...

I do recall rumblings somewhere across the weekend ............ well, mention of rumblings anyway but it may have been just chatter and not an article, but that said what I heard was not of the 'deliberate' type of rumbling but was mentioned that Vinales needs to be more aware of who is around

Gaz · May 29, 2016

yamfan said:
I'd go as far as to say if Lorenzo was doing the following of another fast rider, Rossi and his fans would be up in arms and calling for rule changes.

That would be as short odds as Rossi not getting mentioned by Nick Harris for a period of 20 minutes during commentary in a race in which Rossi is no longer participating

moto vudu · May 29, 2016

Lets have a picture recap of Q2 at Mugello.

We start with Lorenzo leaving the pits with Iannone, A. Espargaro, and Y. Hernandez right behind him.

At this point the announcers are singing praises for Iannone: "Iannone, clever... don't you think? Getting in behind Jorge Lorenzo... just... just... the right thing to do."

Vinales uses Rossi to move up to 2nd place

Both Iannone and Lorenzo have pitted and are back out, but Iannone is still on Lorenzo's ... and gets another red sector.

Mmmm red sectors, Ducati likey.. don't care if Iannone is using Lorenzo as a reference marker.

Iannone improves his time behind Lorenzo

Again, the announcers are singing his praise... AMAZING job by Iannone... so clever! Lets cut to a beautiful slow motion view of the man of the hour.

Ut oh, Rossi managed to catch Vinales and got a red 3rd sector time!

Rossi comes out of the slipstream and takes pole! The place explodes with yellow smoke!

Not so fast, other fast riders are still on track. Here is Espargaro absolutely glued to Marc's rear wheel.

Bad 3rd sector time for Marquez, but Espargaro is still all over him.

Vinales gets in his final lap, but it wasn't good enough.

JPS and Jumkie are going wild with the crowd. Rossi! Rossi! Rossi!

michaelm · May 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
Lets have a picture recap of Q2 at Mugello.

We start with Lorenzo leaving the pits with Iannone, A. Espargaro, and Y. Hernandez right behind him.

At this point the announcers are singing praises for Iannone: "Iannone, clever... don't you think? Getting in behind Jorge Lorenzo... just... just... the right thing to do."

Vinales uses Rossi to move up to 2nd place

Both Iannone and Lorenzo have pitted and are back out, but Iannone is still on Lorenzo's ... and gets another red sector.

Mmmm red sectors, Ducati likey.. don't care if Iannone is using Lorenzo as a reference marker.

Iannone improves his time behind Lorenzo

Again, the announcers are singing his praise... AMAZING job by Iannone... so clever! Lets cut to a beautiful slow motion view of the man of the hour.

Ut oh, Rossi managed to catch Vinales and got a red 3rd sector time!

Rossi comes out of the slipstream and takes pole! The place explodes with yellow smoke!

Not so fast, other fast riders are still on track. Here is Espargaro absolutely glued to Marc's rear wheel.

Bad 3rd sector time for Marquez, but Espargaro is still all over him.

Vinales gets in his final lap, but it wasn't good enough.

JPS and Jumkie are going wild with the crowd. Rossi! Rossi! Rossi!

As I said, I couldn't watch qualifying this time (at a party at a location out of mobile coverage range anyway), but you would seem to be making a case against your own argument if Suzuki are unhappy, for which as I also said there is not necessarily strong evidence.

Vinales last lap "wasn't good enough" by less than 0.1 seconds; would it have been "good enough" if VR hadn't benefited from the tow/slipstreaming/whatever on his fastest lap?

moto vudu · May 29, 2016

michaelm said:
As I said, I couldn't watch qualifying this time (at a party at a location out of mobile coverage range anyway), but you would seem to be making a case against your own argument if Suzuki are unhappy, for which as I also said there is not necessarily strong evidence.

Vinales last lap "wasn't good enough" by less than 0.1 seconds; would it have been "good enough" if VR hadn't benefited from the tow/slipstreaming/whatever on his fastest lap?

That's possible, Vinales just barely missed pole on his lap attempt and he didn't have the benefit of a slipstream. But Suzuki can't be upset that their rider who slipstreamed Rossi to 2nd place missed out on pole after Rossi slipstreamed him in return. While their other rider A. Espargaro was stuck so close to Marques that he could smell if he farted. Suzuki riders were getting tows as well as several other riders.

michaelm · May 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
That's possible, Vinales just barely missed pole on his lap attempt and he didn't have the benefit of a slipstream. But Suzuki can't be upset that their rider who slipstreamed Rossi to 2nd place missed out on pole after Rossi slipstreamed him in return. While their other rider A. Espargaro was stuck so close to Marques that he could smell if he farted. Suzuki riders were getting tows as well as several other riders.

As I said, I didn't see it. Did he slipstream Rossi on his fastest lap?

Two parties can have a problem. Vinales obviously didn't, so that is fine, but it is not unreasonable for Suzuki to complain (if they did) if aiding an opposition rider possibly cost their bike and rider a pole position.

Gaz · May 29, 2016

MV, the image with Vinales behind Rossi does not help your argument of earlier that Rossi at 15-20 metres back (as he was) would not have received the benefit of the slip stream/draft as in that image, Vinales seems a similar distance back to your pro-Rossi point of earlier

If we assume that each line is 1 metre wide then we have 8 metres,as a minimum but in some shots the lines seem wider than a metre (happy to defer to people with experience at Mugello).

But looking at Rossi being fully on the red line, the line is clearly over 1 metre wide when you look at the wheelbase of the bikes and nearer to 2 metres so to me it looks as though Vinales may be 15 metres back, which, to refernce your earlier comment would make him not likely to receive the benefit of the draft

Gaz · May 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
That's possible, Vinales just barely missed pole on his lap attempt and he didn't have the benefit of a slipstream. But Suzuki can't be upset that their rider who slipstreamed Rossi to 2nd place missed out on pole after Rossi slipstreamed him in return. While their other rider A. Espargaro was stuck so close to Marques that he could smell if he farted. Suzuki riders were getting tows as well as several other riders.

I suspect that Suzuki are more pissed at having missed the pole because it was likely that VR was assisted on the straight, not necessarily that they are pissed at MV as such but they may also be thinking conspiracy.

Besides, I strongly doubt that any rider would willingly and/or deliberately give up their first pole position

Keshav · May 30, 2016

michaelm said:
I didn't see qualifying and can't really comment on the lap itself.

The issue for me is whether this report is correct, and it looks fairly flimsy.
If it is then Suzuki are of course entitled to be annoyed, Vinales is currently contracted to them, not that contracts seem to mean much to him, and if it is the stage of qualifying where fastest times are being set he should be concentrating on his own qualifying rather than helping riders who are currently riding for an opposition team, and if he had the pace for a high grid position then Valentino shouldn't have been catching up to him at that time I wouldn't have thought.

The report looks rather dubious anyway though as I said.

Exactamundo. In the end, Rossi would have been on the front row regardless of whether Vinales was there or not. Without the benefit of that little extra drag-along from Vinales, Rossi - it seems - would not have gotten that extra razor's edge that gained him the pole, but so freakin' what? Pole's value is mostly psychological. The end results would have been the same anyhow.

xx CURVE xx · May 30, 2016

Cry me a ....... river

Keshav · May 30, 2016

xx CURVE xx said:
Cry me a ....... river

michaelm · May 30, 2016

Keshav said:
Exactamundo. In the end, Rossi would have been on the front row regardless of whether Vinales was there or not. Without the benefit of that little extra drag-along from Vinales, Rossi - it seems - would not have gotten that extra razor's edge that gained him the pole, but so freakin' what? Pole's value is mostly psychological. The end results would have been the same anyhow.

I agree that as long as you are up with Lorenzo pole doesn't mean much, and that not quite being on pole doesn't affect Lorenzo much, but being down the grid and having to fight through the Ducatis etc was a crucial disadvantage for Rossi on several occasions last year which he seems to be attempting to address this year.

I could see Suzuki quite wanting a pole though,as an underdog who has just come back into it, and while the motives as to why all the Japanese firms race are somewhat opaque to me getting a pole against the might of Honda and Yamaha would certainly be good publicity for the manufacturer and perhaps help the team justify their participation.

I agree in general though, the likes of Colin Edwards and iirc even Pol Espargaro have managed pole positions without it changing opinions that they were/are other than journeymen.

I think the occasional inadvertently blocked post was preferable to all this spam, btw.

JPSLotus · May 31, 2016

Always good to come back after a pleasant weekend and see the bopper(s) talking out of their ... as usual.

Did you know that the effects of a draft can be felt over 100 feet back when you are drafting a 18-wheeler truck in your car on the highway at normal driving speeds? In spite of the distance, it will increase fuel efficiency by 11%. Now while a motorcycle doesn't have that profile of a 18-wheeler, rest assured, the effect can be felt from a decent distance.

I just happened to notice one thing that strikes me as amusing with the people defending the Vinales/Rossi tow at Mugello. Some were absolutely certain of two riders during the latter stage of 2015 conspiring with one another to prevent a 8th premier class title for VR...the premise of which was not supported by any evidence whatsoever other than VR claiming it was true because he said so. There was particular outrage over it, including from some posters here. Meanwhile, when you have admission from Vinales and Rossi that they were conspiring to work in tandem, this is perfectly acceptable. It doesn't matter that Vinales pretty much ...... his team out of a likely pole position so he could further ingratiate himself with his master.

Towing riders around the circuit, or trying to follow another rider has always been a ........ move. I'm not opposed to everyone being out on the same track, but Stoner and Lorenzo are two of the most prominent riders who despise the practice of some riders trying to follow them around the circuit. Think about it, you put in all of that work to set the bike up, perfect your lines around the circuit, and then have someone trying to copy you because they are too lazy to do the work themselves?

CharlieParker · May 31, 2016

The thing that's really crazy is people seem to forget or willingly ignore that the only way, with the way the qualy format works right now, to make a perfect lap (or try to) without getting or giving any tow through all the sectors of the track, is, from a practical standpoint (of course there can be exceptions but we're talking very few, weird and rare circumstances): to get out first out of the pits.

Now, we all know that's Jorge Lorenzo's (only his, almost always) typical behaviour in qualy, which is a consequence of his riding style and preference as a whole. Of course no one can blame him or accuse him for loving to always do it "on his own" with everyone else distanced in all sessions and during the race, and if he's able to do it props to him, but what people undirectly is doing here, other than blaming Vale for blaming Vale's sake - which of course is legimitate and anyway doesn't surprise anyone -, is something else, perhaps even more dangerous for the accuracy of an analysis: to base ethical judgments and judgements of performances of all riders on ONE single rider's parameters and preferences, namely JLo, which are of course VERY specific (this specificity being the reason of his success btw).

We all know if it was Lorenzo's decision, he would probably ideally love MotoGP to become a sort of one-man-on-the-track-at-a-time sport with chrono sessions even on sundays. That's at least how he approaches all races, and if he doesn't is cause he can't; not cause he wouldn't. Point is: that's his own ....... preference. It's not the sport. It's not how everyone else is supposed to behave. Both Rossi and, weirdly (not so much actually) enough, Marquez belong to a very different school of thought which needs to be respected. If you want a sport where contact and closeness between riders is only a virtual formality, go watch F1. In MotoGP contact and the sort of invisible bound that ties riders together on the track is at least as important as pure speed: it's part of the show, it's part of the fun, it's part of a rider required set of abilities. The fact that Jorge's success is based on trying to delete as much as he can the relevancy of this factor for his own good is good and legitimate for him, but other than that doesn't mean .....

Keshav · May 31, 2016

michaelm said:
I agree that as long as you are up with Lorenzo pole doesn't mean much, and that not quite being on pole doesn't affect Lorenzo much, but being down the grid and having to fight through the Ducatis etc was a crucial disadvantage for Rossi on several occasions last year which he seems to be attempting to address this year.

I could see Suzuki quite wanting a pole though,as an underdog who has just come back into it, and while the motives as to why all the Japanese firms race are somewhat opaque to me getting a pole against the might of Honda and Yamaha would certainly be good publicity for the manufacturer and perhaps help the team justify their participation.

I agree in general though, the likes of Colin Edwards and iirc even Pol Espargaro have managed pole positions without it changing opinions that they were/are other than journeymen.

I think the occasional inadvertently blocked post was preferable to all this spam, btw.

Yes - of course being back several places on the grid would potentially be a goat rodeo. At Mugello however - it was clear after Rossi had cleared the first few sectors he would (barring a major screw-up) on the first row without any assistance from Vinales.

IMHO - Suzuki were unreasonable in their censure of Vinales as he gave no signs of outperforming himself in the course of the final lap. Mayhaps they felt he was dawdling. I could see how they might arrive at that perception.

I think management here ought to give one of the regulars here access and authority to delete spam. :butcher:

michaelm · May 31, 2016

CharlieParker said:
The thing that's really crazy is people seem to forget or willingly ignore that the only way, with the way the qualy format works right now, to make a perfect lap (or try to) without getting or giving any tow through all the sectors of the track, is, from a practical standpoint (of course there can be exceptions but we're talking very few, weird and rare circumstances): to get out first out of the pits.

Now, we all know that's Jorge Lorenzo's (only his, almost always) typical behaviour in qualy, which is a consequence of his riding style and preference as a whole. Of course no one can blame him or accuse him for loving to always do it "on his own" with everyone else distanced in all sessions and during the race, and if he's able to do it props to him, but what people undirectly is doing here, other than blaming Vale for blaming Vale's sake - which of course is legimitate and anyway doesn't surprise anyone -, is something else, perhaps even more dangerous for the accuracy of an analysis: to base ethical judgments and judgements of performances of all riders on ONE single rider's parameters and preferences, namely JLo, which are of course VERY specific (this specificity being the reason of his success btw).

We all know if it was Lorenzo's decision, he would probably ideally love MotoGP to become a sort of one-man-on-the-track-at-a-time sport with chrono sessions even on sundays. That's at least how he approaches all races, and if he doesn't is cause he can't; not cause he wouldn't. Point is: that's his own ....... preference. It's not the sport. It's not how everyone else is supposed to behave. Both Rossi and, weirdly (not so much actually) enough, Marquez belong to a very different school of thought which needs to be respected. If you want a sport where contact and closeness between riders is only a virtual formality, go watch F1. In MotoGP contact and the sort of invisible bound that ties riders together on the track is at least as important as pure speed: it's part of the show, it's part of the fun, it's part of a rider required set of abilities. The fact that Jorge's success is based on trying to delete as much as he can the relevancy of this factor for his own good is good and legitimate for him, but other than that doesn't mean .....

So your answer to those you claim always find fault with Rossi is to always find fault with Lorenzo?

Last race rather demonstrated he can fight for position if that is the best strategy and he wasn't too bad at it as a 250 rider either. His more common recent strategy seems to be one VR is trying to emulate.

I actually consider Rossi's pace to be extremely impressive particularly at age 37, but you (and he) are not in a great position to complain about him being denied credit.

Keshav · May 31, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Always good to come back after a pleasant weekend and see the bopper(s) talking out of their ... as usual.

Did you know that the effects of a draft can be felt over 100 feet back when you are drafting a 18-wheeler truck in your car on the highway at normal driving speeds? In spite of the distance, it will increase fuel efficiency by 11%. Now while a motorcycle doesn't have that profile of a 18-wheeler, rest assured, the effect can be felt from a decent distance.

I just happened to notice one thing that strikes me as amusing with the people defending the Vinales/Rossi tow at Mugello. Some were absolutely certain of two riders during the latter stage of 2015 conspiring with one another to prevent a 8th premier class title for VR...the premise of which was not supported by any evidence whatsoever other than VR claiming it was true because he said so. There was particular outrage over it, including from some posters here. Meanwhile, when you have admission from Vinales and Rossi that they were conspiring to work in tandem, this is perfectly acceptable. It doesn't matter that Vinales pretty much ...... his team out of a likely pole position so he could further ingratiate himself with his master.

Towing riders around the circuit, or trying to follow another rider has always been a ........ move. I'm not opposed to everyone being out on the same track, but Stoner and Lorenzo are two of the most prominent riders who despise the practice of some riders trying to follow them around the circuit. Think about it, you put in all of that work to set the bike up, perfect your lines around the circuit, and then have someone trying to copy you because they are too lazy to do the work themselves?

But would you not agree that less experienced riders have ALWAYS followed riders that knew that track better to see what they could learn?

And would you not also concede that even the "aliens" have ghosted behind the leading rider for the better part of the race, looking to see where the other rider is strong and where he is weak in order to plan where to make that last turn pass?

I don't see that there's any difference in doing so in FP or Quali. #2 rider is in effect scouting out his competitor, looking for a tactical advantage.

The majority of the folks here had no problem with the way that MM "raced" Rossi - using the "If it's legal, it doesn't matter if it's ethical." reasoning. The same standard should therefore be applicable to Quali, which after all, is a competition, just like the race itself.

It does seem that folks who said "You can't know for certain what was going on in MM's mind" are now claiming to know what was going on in Vinales' mind.

How say you?

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