Suzuki quitting MotoGP at the end of 2022

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warthog1 said:
Not a bad anecdote regarding Lawson. I liked him also.

I remember watching Doohan at a Sandown superbike race in the late 80s.
Destroyed everyone. Left Robbie Phillis and others half a lap or so behind.
I was young but realised he was bloody good.
Doohan wasn't perhaps that likeable but he understood being on top psychologically and it was part of the single minded focus to dominate imo.

Have seen Marquez do .... on a bike nobody else can and watched him endure some pretty ugly crap from team yellow and destroy him on the track. I enjoyed that and it makes me like him more.
Best I've seen.
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Doohan and Rainey had that singleminded obsession with victory in spades for sure. In Rainey’s book he says something like he didn’t really like racing, he just wanted to beat the next guy.

Agree on MM
 
michaelm said:
We agree on some riders/drivers and differ on others.

I was always a Proust over Senna guy.

Your recollection of Doohan’s career and mine differ, he didn’t need many excuses during the 5 title run from 1994 to 1998, then sustained a second injury which ended his career a few races into the 1999 season as I recall. I was a huge fan and posted as Doohan fan on another forum, and liked his uncompromising attitude which is perhaps how Australians see themselves, even though we are mostly soft city folk.

Casey Stoner is my all time favourite though not because he was the best over a career, although I don’t think many have ridden better than he did in his 2 title winning seasons. He was poetry in motion on a bike, as Shuei Nakamoto more or less said when comparing him with MM, particularly around PI, and I could happily watch him ride laps around PI all day on his own.

I am with Warthog in MM being the best as a total package. I was down on him as too dangerous earlier in his career, but had to be impressed with how he stood up to everything that Rossi and the Valeban dished out to him, and he has done things nobody else could do on a bike imo. Lawson is an all time favourite as well and in that echelon, as well as being unimpeachable in character and general deportment as you say. Rossi is right up there with those guys as a rider of course , too bad he is a prick as a human being.
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The very best have always had the ability to ride so hard and fast and make it look smooth and easy. The poetry in motion you reference.

It’s true that Marc Marquez has tempered his murderous streak and I should perhaps adjust my assessment accordingly. It’s also true that he has done and still does things on a bike which have not exactly been replicated, so far. However in doing so he is not as smooth as Stoner was. For me Stoner remains the high mark in pure riding. He did things on a bike to go faster that were very difficult to actually see. He was that smooth.

Doohan was mentally so strong and I have to admire that. Pre injury his demeanor was a lot more human in interviews. Somewhere along the line in the 5 title streak I guess I just got tired of watching him win so consistently. On the seemingly rare occasions he did fail to win, his obsession with victory seemed to prevent him from acknowledging the victory of somebody else. One of the greats for sure, just not one of my personal favorites.
 
Bern1 said:
The very best have always had the ability to ride so hard and fast and make it look smooth and easy. The poetry in motion you reference.

It’s true that Marc Marquez has tempered his murderous streak and I should perhaps adjust my assessment accordingly. It’s also true that he has done and still does things on a bike which have not exactly been replicated, so far. However in doing so he is not as smooth as Stoner was. For me Stoner remains the high mark in pure riding. He did things on a bike to go faster that were very difficult to actually see. He was that smooth.

Doohan was mentally so strong and I have to admire that. Pre injury his demeanor was a lot more human in interviews. Somewhere along the line in the 5 title streak I guess I just got tired of watching him win so consistently. On the seemingly rare occasions he did fail to win, his obsession with victory seemed to prevent him from acknowledging the victory of somebody else. One of the greats for sure, just not one of my personal favorites.
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Sure, no one ever called Doohan likeable during his career, and if you weren’t a fan his desire to ruthlessly grind the rest of the field into the dust was probably not very entertaining. I don’t think he rode unfairly though.

We agree about Stoner obviously. Ben Spies it was I think who said when following Stoner as opposed to other top riders around a track that he could understand what they did, which they obviously did better than others,, but just couldn’t fathom how Stoner did what he did. Nakamoto said, early in MM’s ascendancy admittedly, that Marc had faster reflexes, but Casey was a genius on a bike.
 
michaelm said:
Casey Stoner is my all time favourite though not because he was the best over a career, although I don’t think many have ridden better than he did in his 2 title winning seasons. He was poetry in motion on a bike, as Shuei Nakamoto more or less said when comparing him with MM, particularly around PI, and I could happily watch him ride laps around PI all day on his own.
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In terms of riding talent, Casey is the archetype. He achieved the perfect balance between fast-loose and wheels in line corner speed, and he could alter the balance of his style turn by turn or lap by lap to optimize his lap time.

Many riders measure themselves by how much faster they are than the competition. Casey clearly measured himself by how fast he was compared to his own expectations.
 
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michaelm said:
Sure, no one ever called Doohan likeable during his career, and if you weren’t a fan his desire to ruthlessly grind the rest of the field into the dust was probably not very entertaining. I don’t think he rode unfairly though.

We agree about Stoner obviously. Ben Spies it was I think who said when following Stoner as opposed to other top riders around a track that he could understand what they did, which they obviously did better than others,, but just couldn’t fathom how Stoner did what he did. Nakamoto said, early in MM’s ascendancy admittedly, that Marc had faster reflexes, but Casey was a genius on a bike.
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Likeable and moral character. Two separate things. Personally I don’t really care about the former, it’s the latter I insist on regarding true greatness. Nobody ever accused Rainey of being likeable. I don’t think I ever saw him smile. As mentioned both he and Doohan are in the same domination category, not by chance at great physical cost to each of them. I regret nitpicking at Doohan regarding the interviews. I never saw him run anybody off the road, a very clear sign of integrity.
 
mylexicon said:
In terms of riding talent, Casey is the archetype. He achieved the perfect balance between fast-loose and wheels in line corner speed, and he could alter the balance of his style turn by turn or lap by lap to optimize his lap time.
Click to expand...

This exactly.

In 2012 at Laguna during the later part of the race I was standing on the outside of Turn 6, the fast uphill left hander with some serious bumps in the middle/exit of it. A very important corner exit for a lap time as it leads onto one of the few straight parts of the track on the run up to the corkscrew. After Stoner pulled the pin and passed Lorenzo, he was ever so slightly actually drifting both wheels through these bumps. Everybody else was just driving through them. Indeed, nobody else was capable of it. It was stunning to watch in person and I doubt it was visible on TV.
 
michaelm said:
Sure, no one ever called Doohan likeable during his career, and if you weren’t a fan his desire to ruthlessly grind the rest of the field into the dust was probably not very entertaining. I don’t think he rode unfairly though.

We agree about Stoner obviously. Ben Spies it was I think who said when following Stoner as opposed to other top riders around a track that he could understand what they did, which they obviously did better than others,, but just couldn’t fathom how Stoner did what he did. Nakamoto said, early in MM’s ascendancy admittedly, that Marc had faster reflexes, but Casey was a genius on a bike.
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Similarity-wise: They both dominated on bikes that no-one else could gel with.

They were unalike in that Stoner didn’t need to constantly injure himself in dozens of crashes to know where the limit was. That’s a big part of what made him an “alien”. There seemed not to be any learning curve for him. I chalk a lot of that up to all his early years riding on dirt. The Kenny Roberts effect as it were. In his autobiography his obsessive nature from a very young age is plain to see, given which, his ability to walk away from it all is that much more impressive.

If his talent was something you could buy, it would be the Holy Grail.
 
Bern1 said:
Likeable and moral character. Two separate things. Personally I don’t really care about the former, it’s the latter I insist on regarding true greatness. Nobody ever accused Rainey of being likeable. I don’t think I ever saw him smile. As mentioned both he and Doohan are in the same domination category, not by chance at great physical cost to each of them. I regret nitpicking at Doohan regarding the interviews. I never saw him run anybody off the road, a very clear sign of integrity.
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I was lucky enough to encounter (meet is too strong a word) Rainey a few summers back at a flat-track race in New Jersey. He came (unannounced) to celebrate the anniversary of an iconic race held in Peoria and was there with a bunch of old-timers. I’m generally pretty chill around famous people. In my business I’ve worked with many. But when standing on line to say hello I was pretty nervous: he looked like he was made out of weather-beaten granite. Grim as hell. But whenever some old fan would come up and recount an old mile race that Rainey had competed in he would just light up and laugh. I kept thinking, God help anyone who tries to take a selfie with him. He was in fact, super nice. Even at his age, in a wheel chair he has immense gravitas.
 
Another take on Suzuki leaving the grid:
https://www.cycleworld.com/story/motorcycle-racing/suzuki-quits-motogp/

Carlo Pernat, former Aprilia Racing Team principal and Enea Bastianini’s current manager, provides some insight: “According to the new agreement, each manufacturer receives 3 million euros from Dorna per season; a satellite team receives 5 million to line up two riders. This amount returns to the manufacturer to pay for the bikes. I don’t know exactly how much the penalty is for a team or manufacturer to break the contract with Dorna, but I assume around 10 million.”
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Gold nugget
 
michaelm said:
I was a big Bayliss fan as well, but still think there was a fair chance of winning that last race had winning been necessary.
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"He said to me: Dad, I'm either gonna win this thing or bring it home on the wrecker truck. Which isn't really what you to hear from your son before he steps on a MotoGP bike"

- Earl Hayden.
 
Was Spies the last American hope? His crew too low level for GP? His mom?

OR...was he forced out by the yellow cabal? That's my pick.
 
Mrpurple said:
Was Spies the last American hope? His crew too low level for GP? His mom?

OR...was he forced out by the yellow cabal? That's my pick.
Click to expand...

Spies is like Doohan insofar as Spies is the last of his kind.

Steel hardened steel in the golden era of the 500cc two-strokes. Doohan was the last man standing. Spies was the last youngster standing in the twilight of AMA SBK's golden era. Was Mary a problem? I mean, if Uccio can be Rossi's "manager", I'm sure Mary Spies is smart enough to be a manager figurehead.

The yellow cabal might have cost Spies his factory Yamaha seat, but they didn't end his career. I suspect Dorna was the driving factor in Spies jump to satellite Ducati which wasted his talent, and ultimately ended his career.

Dorna view American riders as a sort of affirmative action program to increase the value of TV rights in The States. Naturally, this sort of treatment doesn't foster talent development, and Europeans in the paddock surely whine about handouts for underachieving American riders. Now that MotoAmerica is a Dorna fiefdom, it will probably get worse.

With the exception of Hayden, who did manage to win a world championship, but who also stuck around in GP long after losing a few tenths and half of this confidence, which American rider has benefitted from Dorna's charity? Hayden and Edwards stuck around much too long. Spies' career was ended abruptly by a mediocre ride. Beaubier is nearly 30, Moto2 has wasted the prime of his career, unless he can maintain speed in his early 30s for Yamaha WSBK. Gerloff has hit a ceiling, though it's unclear if Dorna boosted him to WSBK.

In Dorna's defense, they have sent a lot of older world-level talent to the US to help sharpen the field, but the profile of motorcycle racing will need a huge boost to increase the number of groms.
 
mylexicon said:
Spies is like Doohan insofar as Spies is the last of his kind.

Steel hardened steel in the golden era of the 500cc two-strokes. Doohan was the last man standing. Spies was the last youngster standing in the twilight of AMA SBK's golden era. Was Mary a problem? I mean, if Uccio can be Rossi's "manager", I'm sure Mary Spies is smart enough to be a manager figurehead.

The yellow cabal might have cost Spies his factory Yamaha seat, but they didn't end his career. I suspect Dorna was the driving factor in Spies jump to satellite Ducati which wasted his talent, and ultimately ended his career.

Dorna view American riders as a sort of affirmative action program to increase the value of TV rights in The States. Naturally, this sort of treatment doesn't foster talent development, and Europeans in the paddock surely whine about handouts for underachieving American riders. Now that MotoAmerica is a Dorna fiefdom, it will probably get worse.

With the exception of Hayden, who did manage to win a world championship, but who also stuck around in GP long after losing a few tenths and half of this confidence, which American rider has benefitted from Dorna's charity? Hayden and Edwards stuck around much too long. Spies' career was ended abruptly by a mediocre ride. Beaubier is nearly 30, Moto2 has wasted the prime of his career, unless he can maintain speed in his early 30s for Yamaha WSBK. Gerloff has hit a ceiling, though it's unclear if Dorna boosted him to WSBK.

In Dorna's defense, they have sent a lot of older world-level talent to the US to help sharpen the field, but the profile of motorcycle racing will need a huge boost to increase the number of groms.
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From what I recall of his interviews, Spies had been very hesitant to come to Europe at all. He was in his element in World Superbike, but I don’t think he ever felt MotoGP was where he belonged. Always got the feeling that he felt pushed and prodded to go to MotoGP, like his heart really wasn’t in it.
 
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Mrpurple said:
Was Spies the last American hope? His crew too low level for GP? His mom?

OR...was he forced out by the yellow cabal? That's my pick.
Click to expand...

Road racing in America has become a very hard thing to get into. There are hardly any entry or developmental racing series left. Club racing has become harder to get into, thus fewer people can get involved.
 
Keshav said:
From what I recall of his interviews, Spies had been very hesitant to come to Europe at all. He was in his element in the world superbike, but I don’t think he ever felt MotoGP was where he belonged. Always got the feeling that he felt pushed and prodded to go to MotoGP, like his heart really wasn’t in it.
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Yeah, AMA paid well before it fell apart, and Ben had no reason to leave. Same for Mladin. But when Ben went to Europe, he wanted GP, and he and Merigali put together that deal to launch Ben and his entire side of the paddock into GP if he won.

The question is why he refused to go back to WSBK when Yamaha surely threw a seven figure compensation package his direction. I can only imagine that Dorna intervened to sub his GP pay, but maybe I’m wrong.
 
Spies seemed to be an enigma, but surely that’s because I wasn’t really aware of what was going on.

As far as developmental racing here in the US it appears not to exist. Europe is grooming racers that are hitting Moto3 full stride when they are teenagers and we are sending fully mature 30 year olds over there who are getting too close to their sell by date, don’t know the tracks or the paddock culture.

I don’t care who it is, any more than a season or two of WSBK without hitting MotoGP and you ain’t never getting there. 4 or 5 AMA superbike titles same. Those riders are over the the hill by the time they manage to get to Europe.

That goes for the Europeans too. Rea will never make it in MotoGP.

Let’s face the facts: some of those guys just feel comfortable winning at a lower level and don’t want to risk losing on the big stage.

IMO, one of the reasons Biaggi never became world champion in the premier class is because he spent too much time racking up wins and championships in 250.
 
Bern1 said:
Spies seemed to be an enigma, but surely that’s because I wasn’t really aware of what was going on.

As far as developmental racing here in the US it appears not to exist. Europe is grooming racers that are hitting Moto3 full stride when they are teenagers and we are sending fully mature 30 year olds over there who are getting too close to their sell by date, don’t know the tracks or the paddock culture.

I don’t care who it is, any more than a season or two of WSBK without hitting MotoGP and you ain’t never getting there. 4 or 5 AMA superbike titles same. Those riders are over the the hill by the time they manage to get to Europe.

That goes for the Europeans too. Rea will never make it in MotoGP.

Let’s face the facts: some of those guys just feel comfortable winning at a lower level and don’t want to risk losing on the big stage.

IMO, one of the reasons Biaggi never became world champion in the premier class is because he spent too much time racking up wins and championships in 250.
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Yamaha provided him with a faulty/cracked chassis for a significant number of races iirc which is when the rot started/he perhaps lost confidence. Then the impetus for the return of the prodigal 9 times world champion started to gather force.
 

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