Stoner might retire by the end of 2012 season.

Mr Squiggle · May 4, 2012

Talpa said:
Thanks Casey you proved my point, without TC they all would be spat off, especially Stoner due to his aggressive riding style........much like what use to happen to McCoy with far less horsepower, managing rubber and that sort of power across race distance without TC with such an aggressive style would be impossible without some serious offs, he may have different TC settings to most, doesn't mean to say that it doesn't kick seriously in when its really needed

And on the issues of benefits from regs, instead of your usual ranting rubbish argumentum ad hominem one of you boning neos explain to me how Casey would have wiped the field with the 990 Ducati on Bridgestones if no rules had changed between 2006- 2007?

Because Capirossi who was a serious title contender in 2006 had Stoner as a team mate in 2007 and was nowhere near him all year .......1st Vs 7th in the standings at the end of the season.

Stoner has done the same thing to every team mate he has had since he joined the circus.....must be the bike huh?

BarryMachine · May 4, 2012

Talpa said:
And on the issues of benefits from regs, instead of your usual ranting rubbish argumentum ad hominem one of you boning neos explain to me how Casey would have wiped the field with the 990 Ducati on Bridgestones if no rules had changed between 2006- 2007?

Well to go anywhere near proving that you'd have to just stick him straight up on a factory 1,000 and if he was as good as they suggest he would win a race on it ...... not saying straight up ..... but after a few rounds to get used to it .............. oh wait, didn't Stoner jump on the Honda and dominate all testing and then win the first race he had on it!??? .......... don't know if theres ever been a precedent for that

Ever!

michaelm · May 4, 2012

mylexicon said:
They are trying to make things more exciting, but rules don't change this. Ergo, let's change the fuel capacity rules.

Casey Stoner is funny b/c no one can tell exactly what he means. I suspect people feel the same way reading my posts on occasion. Anyway, I'll take a stab. "They are trying to make it more exciting" means they are trying to screw up the ECU and introduce production parts to reduce the sophistication. Stoner hates those rules. However, Stoner is okay with a horsepower limit? Dunno, he didn't specify bore or revs.

Kind of an interesting statement. He wants very sophisticated equipment, but he wouldn't mind a horsepower limit b/c the riders would make the difference.

As jumkie also says, no doubt he has deficiencies as a public speaker. His public pronouncements are not infrequently poorly thought through, and he sometimes seem to say the first thing which occurs to him. He has proved capable of more thoughtful considered comments in one on one interviews with the likes of david emmett on occasion.

BarryMachine · May 4, 2012

I get what Stoner is saying. You can still have the technology and "prototype-ness" and limit the HP electronically. Still gives a huge scope for development and yet maintains the possibility of a chance for a win by anyone.

michaelm · May 4, 2012

BarryMachine said:
I get what Stoner is saying. You can still have the technology and "prototype-ness" and limit the HP electronically. Still gives a huge scope for development and yet maintains the possibility of a chance for a win by anyone.

Sure, if you have unlimited horsepower you need unlimited electronic aids.

mylexicon · May 4, 2012

michaelm said:
As jumkie also says, no doubt he has deficiencies as a public speaker. His public pronouncements are not infrequently poorly thought through, and he sometimes seem to say the first thing which occurs to him. He has proved capable of more thoughtful considered comments in one on one interviews with the likes of david emmett on occasion.

I'm not trying to criticize Stoner. Everyone has different cognitive patterns, and when he speaks, imo, he appears to be searching for some fundamental concept or normative virtue. An idea or emotion too complex, perhaps too personal to discuss with the bloodsuckers. So the fans/media are left to their own devices.

I think Casey's predicament is humorous. He gets more recognition as his star grows, yet the more recognition he gets, the more he must slog through all of the sociological conventions he deems detestable. The struggle doesn't appear to be taking any real toll on his psychological well-being so I'll laugh for now. It's even more humorous to contrast the reactions to Stoner and Rossi. How many times has Rossi said/done things that make no sense? All of those inane celebrations, based entirely of inside jokes. Chickens in pots and what not. The whole world laughs and they pretend to know what's going on. They are convinced they have a substantive reason to laugh at one and loathe the other.

In this media-saturated world of mindless self-promotion, someone like Stoner is practically deadwood, but give him a MotoGP and start the timer.............

But enough sociological meanderings. If I've made the correct inferences from his recent interviews, Stoner says that HRC are closed to the idea of spec-ECUs, but open to the possibility of adding fuel? That would be a fascinating revelation.

Mr Squiggle · May 4, 2012

mylexicon said:
I think Casey's predicament is humorous. He gets more recognition as his star grows, yet the more recognition he gets, the more he must slog through all of the sociological conventions he deems detestable. The struggle doesn't appear to be taking any real toll on his psychological well-being so I'll laugh for now.

Easy to smile for the cameras when you are winning...we all know if his results go south this part of the job will takes its toll...look at Rossi and his current predicament for a perfect example of being uncomfortable under the microscope when things arent going to plan.

mylexicon said:
In this media-saturated world of mindless self-promotion, someone like Stoner is practically deadwood, but give him a MotoGP and start the timer.............

Precisely....in the end I personally dont really care about that sort of BS. He is far more interesting riding a motorcycle than he will ever be at public speaking and considering he is there for exactly that reason I will forgive his misgivings when it comes to his lack of social graces and his inabilities to captivate an audience when put in front of a microphone.

frizzle · May 4, 2012

Talpa said:
Thanks Casey you proved my point, without TC they all would be spat off, especially Stoner due to his aggressive riding style........much like what use to happen to McCoy with far less horsepower, managing rubber and that sort of power across race distance without TC with such an aggressive style would be impossible without some serious offs, he may have different TC settings to most, doesn't mean to say that it doesn't kick seriously in when its really needed

And on the issues of benefits from regs, instead of your usual ranting rubbish argumentum ad hominem one of you boning neos explain to me how Casey would have wiped the field with the 990 Ducati on Bridgestones if no rules had changed between 2006- 2007?

No worries. I propose next race we turn TC off all the bikes & see what happens. I'd hate to be on that Ducati more than anything.

BarryMachine · May 4, 2012

michaelm said:
Sure, if you have unlimited horsepower you need unlimited electronic aids.

Cos Electronic Aids are like Bandaids ....... the bigger the cut the more you need

with so many horsepowers you'd need at least 10 electronic aids!!??

Talpa · May 4, 2012

Mr Squiggle said:
Because Capirossi who was a serious title contender in 2006 had Stoner as a team mate in 2007 and was nowhere near him all year .......1st Vs 7th in the standings at the end of the season.

Stoner has done the same thing to every team mate he has had since he joined the circus.....must be the bike huh?

2007-A season which had the biggest lot of reg changes ever implemented-that's my point-how would have he gone without any changes to the regs between 2006-07.......? Simple question really. Stoner has had one season before the monster regs came in Motogp-2006-he came 8th

Michelin proved to be far superior to BS for many, many years with their supply strategy, this would have continued without the supply reg. Yamaha and Honda would have continued to be ahead of Ducati, as they always were in the 990 era, riders like Rossi/Caparossi/Hayden/Barros/Checha/Melandri etc would not have had to re-learn how to go fast on a very new platform, which threw out a lot of what they had developed/mastered since 2002. Hayden would not have had to have ridden a bike built for a midget. The 990 M1 would have been nearly unstoppable again-as it had been for 3 years at the time.

My point is, it would be highly unlikely that Stoner would have had the success he had in 2007 if the regs were not implemented back then, thus he is and was a great beneficiary of the huge reg changes between 2006-07, making his latest comments on the matter seem a little egotistical/hypocritical, but hey-when your on top.........I'm sure if you ask Loris, Rossi Hayden, Elias, Melandri/Checha if they would have preferred to stay with the 990's as they were in 2006.........well, I believe none of them would say 'no'.

The Rev limit/Control ECU may just prove to give a rider like Marquez an absolute advantage next season.......he may just spank the field as a result, what comes around...........

michaelm · May 5, 2012

Talpa said:
2007-A season which had the biggest lot of reg changes ever implemented-that's my point-how would have he gone without any changes to the regs between 2006-07.......? Simple question really. Stoner has had one season before the monster regs came in Motogp-2006-he came 8th

Michelin proved to be far superior to BS for many, many years with their supply strategy, this would have continued without the supply reg. Yamaha and Honda would have continued to be ahead of Ducati, as they always were in the 990 era, riders like Rossi/Caparossi/Hayden/Barros/Checha/Melandri etc would not have had to re-learn how to go fast on a very new platform, which threw out a lot of what they had developed/mastered since 2002. Hayden would not have had to have ridden a bike built for a midget. The 990 M1 would have been nearly unstoppable again-as it had been for 3 years at the time.

My point is, it would be highly unlikely that Stoner would have had the success he had in 2007 if the regs were not implemented back then, thus he is and was a great beneficiary of the huge reg changes between 2006-07, making his latest comments on the matter seem a little egotistical/hypocritical, but hey-when your on top.........I'm sure if you ask Loris, Rossi Hayden, Elias, Melandri/Checha if they would have preferred to stay with the 990's as they were in 2006.........well, I believe none of them would say 'no'.

The Rev limit/Control ECU may just prove to give a rider like Marquez an absolute advantage next season.......he may just spank the field as a result, what comes around...........

You don't seem to have answered my rebuttal of your arguments whilst criticising others for not doing so.

I agree with you about one thing. He jagged that 2007 ride, and was indeed fortunate he landed on a championship capable bike; he may not have ever got such a chance otherwise, and I don't really think even ducati thought they were handing him a strong chance at the championship when they signed him. This may mean that there are others who have the potential but never get a real chance ( I have thought this in regard to randy de puniet for one), but I can't see how it detracts in any way from stoner's success. It seems to be emerging fairly undeniably that what he did on the ducati every year he was on it was quite exceptional, and unless he starts failing now that he is on an unequivocally good bike for an unequivocally strong team, I don't see how you can criticise him, particularly in comparison with riders who have always been on such bikes for such teams.

BarryMachine · May 5, 2012

Luckily we can test Talpas theory.

Using Capirosi, who stayed at Ducati but also switched capacities.

2006 ........... 3rd

2007 ............ 7th

clearly the 07 was a worse bike than the 06, therefore Stoner would have won more in 07 on a 990.

mylexicon · May 5, 2012

Talpa said:
My point is, it would be highly unlikely that Stoner would have had the success he had in 2007 if the regs were not implemented back then

So who wins in 2007 if it's 22L 990s? Knowing what we know now, Stoner is still one of the front runners. If Casey didn't win in 2007, maybe he would have landed on an RC in 2009, when Honda ditched Hayden for Dovi (sweet trade). Maybe he'd have gone on a Doohan streak. None of the hypothetical scenarios are relevant though b/c none of them change Casey's abilities.

The rules worked for Casey once. He won easily. The rules changed over and over for the next 3 years, and all of those changes hurt Ducati. He switched to Honda and won in his first season, despite Rossi spotting Lorenzo a 25pt advantage. For 2012 the rules changed again, but this time the changes weren't a reaction to the "wrong guy" winning. The field is closer to Casey. Rules have not done much of anything for CS27, and that's why he doesn't like rules changes.

Mr Squiggle · May 5, 2012

Talpa said:
2007-A season which had the biggest lot of reg changes ever implemented-that's my point-how would have he gone without any changes to the regs between 2006-07.......? Simple question really.

It is a simple question...but the answer is infinitely complex in that there is no right or wrong answer - it is based purely on speculative fantasy....which so far has been the crux of most of your criticism against Stoner....ifs, buts and maybes have zero relevance in real world scenarios.

The only thing that really matters is results...and on that score Casey Stoner is the most successful rider in MotoGP since he entered the series....argue that

birdman · May 5, 2012

I would of thought one of the biggest rule changes was 2002 when they went four stroke. Well half went four stroke, all the other lucky buggers got to keep the two strokes. Other lucky buggers like McCoy got Kwakas crapper, and Roberts a Shitzooki. By comparison, Tohru Ukawa got a V5. Was it fair?

GeePee · May 5, 2012

mylexicon said:
The rules worked for Casey once. He won easily. The rules changed over and over for the next 3 years, and all of those changes hurt Ducati. He switched to Honda and won in his first season, despite Rossi spotting Lorenzo a 25pt advantage. For 2012 the rules changed again, but this time the changes weren't a reaction to the "wrong guy" winning. The field is closer to Casey. Rules have not done much of anything for CS27, and that's why he doesn't like rules changes.

Good post.

I hadn't thought that way.

Mr Squiggle · May 5, 2012

GeePee said:
Good post.

I hadn't thought that way.

Lex has a habit of allowing you to see things from a perspective you may not have previously considered....which is why I value his contributions to the forum more than most.

Mick D · May 5, 2012

Mr Squiggle said:
Lex has a habit of allowing you to see things from a perspective you may not have previously considered.

Its just that sometimes the "perspective" from Pluto is a little out there!

Just kiddin' Lex!

Mick D · May 5, 2012

Apparently Yamaha factory teams a quite the jokers!!!! From twitter:

Yamaha MotoGP ‏ @YamahaMotoGP

@HRC_MotoGP if Casey wants to retire today we're happy to contribute to a leaving present...

michaelm · May 5, 2012

mylexicon said:
So who wins in 2007 if it's 22L 990s? Knowing what we know now, Stoner is still one of the front runners. If Casey didn't win in 2007, maybe he would have landed on an RC in 2009, when Honda ditched Hayden for Dovi (sweet trade). Maybe he'd have gone on a Doohan streak. None of the hypothetical scenarios are relevant though b/c none of them change Casey's abilities.

The rules worked for Casey once. He won easily. The rules changed over and over for the next 3 years, and all of those changes hurt Ducati. He switched to Honda and won in his first season, despite Rossi spotting Lorenzo a 25pt advantage. For 2012 the rules changed again, but this time the changes weren't a reaction to the "wrong guy" winning. The field is closer to Casey. Rules have not done much of anything for CS27, and that's why he doesn't like rules changes.

A reasonable perspective. I would at least like to think stoner is not being entirely self-serving; I believe he is correct that constant rule changes are bad for the whole sport, and in particular its cost structure.

As an aside, thinking about all this, I believe stoner was signed by ducati for 2007 with the intention of parking him for a year while they waited for their preferred choice, marco melandri, to complete his contract with gresini honda. Both nicky hayden and john hopkins reputedly knocked back the ride, iirc.

Hopper certainly could ride bridgestones, and did well on them on the 2007 suzuki, remarkably so in retrospect. He was definitely a hard charger, and I wonder whether he might have been someone else who could have gotten the 2007 ducati into its operating range and exploited its potential.

Stoner might retire by the end of 2012 season.

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