Some Conspiracy stuff to chew on...

rezonator636 · Nov 19, 2013

The only way I would buy into a conspiracy to keep non-Spanish riders out of MotoGP is if Dorna could somehow make more money by making the championship Spanish-only. Thing is, they would stand to make a hell of a lot more money if elite riders showed up from other parts of the world. The problem is, none are showing up.

A Chinese version of Marc Marquez (and I'm not talking about MM making the "slanty eyes," but an honest-to-God elite-level Chinese rider) would get fast-tracked to MotoGP and get a ton of publicity when he got there. Why? Because China is the biggest market in the world, and their pro athletes are huge draws. But no such rider is forthcoming.

Same deal with the UK. Now that you guys have to pay extra to watch MotoGP, Dorna would love to have some marketable British riders. Problem is, the best the you can do is Crutchlow, who's going to spend the next two years pitching Ducatis into air fences. It's the same problem here in the US; Dorna desperately wants a foothold in this country, but the best rider we could come up with is Spies, who could barely stay upright on a MotoGP bike.

chopperman · Nov 19, 2013

rezonator636

3691411384893445

The only way I would buy into a conspiracy to keep non-Spanish riders out of MotoGP is if Dorna could somehow make more money by making the championship Spanish-only. Thing is, they would stand to make a hell of a lot more money if elite riders showed up from other parts of the world. The problem is, none are showing up.

A Chinese version of Marc Marquez (and I'm not talking about MM making the "slanty eyes," but an honest-to-God elite-level Chinese rider) would get fast-tracked to MotoGP and get a ton of publicity when he got there. Why? Because China is the biggest market in the world, and their pro athletes are huge draws. But no such rider is forthcoming.

Same deal with the UK. Now that you guys have to pay extra to watch MotoGP, Dorna would love to have some marketable British riders. Problem is, the best the you can do is Crutchlow, who's going to spend the next two years pitching Ducatis into air fences. It's the same problem here in the US; Dorna desperately wants a foothold in this country, but the best rider we could come up with is Spies, who could barely stay upright on a MotoGP bike.

Funny how you say "the best the uk could do" Crutchlow as if he were proved somehow inferior. The man who podiumed a second tier bike and regually ran with the so call Alians, all on factory bikes i might add. I guess we will never know what he could have achieved on say Pedrosa's bike, Imo he was more deserving of it than dani and far more deserving of Rossi's bike. Dorna may have made a rule allowing for up to 4 factory bikes but no funding to help a British rider. We may not know the dynamics of the rigging but we can the the result of it.

rezonator636 · Nov 19, 2013

chopperman

3691441384894298

Funny how you say "the best the uk could do" Crutchlow as if he were proved somehow inferior. The man who podiumed a second tier bike and regually ran with the so call Alians, all on factory bikes i might add. I guess we will never know what he could have achieved on say Pedrosa's bike, Imo he was more deserving of it than dani and far more deserving of Rossi's bike. Dorna may have made a rule allowing for up to 4 factory bikes but no funding to help a British rider. We may not know the dynamics of the rigging but we can the the result of it.

He wasn't proved inferior, he just isn't as good as Marquez and Lorenzo. If he had alien levels of talent, you'd be able to see it.

In a way, the Duc may be his best chance to prove himself. If he can make that bike work, in the way that the parade of riders (including Rossi) before him couldn't, then that will be ultimate proof that he really is a top-tier rider. If he can do that, and a vacancy opens up at Yamaha (either from Rossi retiring or Jorge switching allegiances), then Cal may well get his shot.

However, we know that's pretty unlikely. Cal and Dovi were more or less equal at Tech 3 (Dovi rode better in 2012, but Cal's gotten better this year), and if Dovi can't make the Duc work, it's doubtful Cal can. But we'll see.

baturro · Nov 19, 2013

Strange way to look at things Rog, but to each their own. Your starting to spout off without thinking. There is no spot for Pol to go on a factory bike. Of the big 4, the most non deserving rider would be Rossi, and I doubt they would piss off the masses. Next year Pol and Smith will be on the same bike. Would you be interested in a wager? I say the rookie will beat his experienced teammate. They are on a French team. Spain and France get along as well as England and France.

Or do you want to wave the conspiracy flag now and blame Dorna for Smith getting schooled?

chopperman · Nov 19, 2013

rezonator636

3691471384894893

He wasn't proved inferior, he just isn't as good as Marquez and Lorenzo. If he had alien levels of talent, you'd be able to see it.

In a way, the Duc may be his best chance to prove himself. If he can make that bike work, in the way that the parade of riders (including Rossi) before him couldn't, then that will be ultimate proof that he really is a top-tier rider. If he can do that, and a vacancy opens up at Yamaha (either from Rossi retiring or Jorge switching allegiances), then Cal may well get his shot.

However, we know that's pretty unlikely. Cal and Dovi were more or less equal at Tech 3 (Dovi rode better in 2012, but Cal's gotten better this year), and if Dovi can't make the Duc work, it's doubtful Cal can. But we'll see.

I normally agree with a lot of your posts but with this particular one i disagree with all of it.

You say cal isn't as good as MM or Lorenzo. That maybe true but all things considered i cant see how that was proved. He not only podiumed a second tier bike and regularly ran with the "top" boys, he also finished 5th in the championship behind only the 4 bikes on the grid capable of winning. Seriously, what else could he have done to prove his worth ?

Secondly, to say going to Ducati is an opportunity to prove himself then maybe get a shot is laughable. Ducati is nothing more than a retirement fund builder to a rider with the knowledge that your never going to get a shot. The bike is a bag of bolts that will never win .... but pays well. If you see out your contract you will still be ruined and unnoticed. Rossi only got a second shot through money and marketability. We can all see that talent kept off the boil never comes back.

chopperman · Nov 19, 2013

baturro

3691491384895128

Strange way to look at things Rog, but to each their own. Your starting to spout off without thinking. There is no spot for Pol to go on a factory bike. Of the big 4, the most non deserving rider would be Rossi, and I doubt they would piss off the masses. Next year Pol and Smith will be on the same bike. Would you be interested in a wager? I say the rookie will beat his experienced teammate. They are on a French team. Spain and France get along as well as England and France.

Or do you want to wave the conspiracy flag now and blame Dorna for Smith getting schooled?

Firstly i dont rate smith so why would i wager on him ?

Secondly, you start a thread called "Some Conspiracy stuff to chew on" then stick your head in the sand when your shown spanish bias. What was the point ?

14X · Nov 19, 2013

Same deal with the UK. Now that you guys have to pay extra to watch

MotoGP, Dorna would love to have some marketable British riders. Problem

is, the best the you can do is Crutchlow

Now I'm a fan of Cal, and I have to agree he's not on the same level as MM and JL. Perhaps Dani given recent form.

It's telling that even Cal himself said that he thought Jorge would be able to win races on his Tech 3 last year. I think Cal is a great rider, and I still hold hope that his sheer don't give a fuckitude and Britishness will be able to beat the Ducati into submission next year, but saying he would be at the level of the two best riders in the world (who happen to be Spanish) is a little over-generous. Could he win races on a factory bike? Sure. Can he win championships? Not with those two on the grid.

Incidently we Brits don't really have that much to complain about when it comes to representation. We have a guy on a factory bike, another guy just get promoted to the big league and another guy joining Moto2 from World Supersport (and rumours still abound that his brother might be joining MotoGP also) Would I like to see them shove Crutchlow and Redding on Repsol Hondas? Sure that'd be great, but I won't accuse them of bias when they don't.

baturro · Nov 19, 2013

Bet on him cause he is your countryman, is experienced on the Yamaha and on the off chance he wins will prove me wrong. It could be the modern day sinking of the armada.

I think Pol is an ...... But has proved to be competitive against MM, and that is why Yamaha has chosen him over Redding. Nothing to do with him being Spanish. That's my point. You are fixated on seeing Spanish bias, but especially in this case, there isn't any. You didn't show me .....

chopperman · Nov 19, 2013

14X

3691521384896582

Now I'm a fan of Cal, and I have to agree he's not on the same level as MM and JL. Perhaps Dani given recent form.

It's telling that even Cal himself said that he thought Jorge would be able to win races on his Tech 3 last year. I think Cal is a great rider, and I still hold hope that his sheer don't give a fuckitude and Britishness will be able to beat the Ducati into submission next year, but saying he would be at the level of the two best riders in the world (who happen to be Spanish) is a little over-generous. Could he win races on a factory bike? Sure. Can he win championships? Not with those two on the grid.

Incidently we Brits don't really have that much to complain about when it comes to representation. We have a guy on a factory bike, another guy just get promoted to the big league and another guy joining Moto2 from World Supersport (and rumours still abound that his brother might be joining MotoGP also) Would I like to see them shove Crutchlow and Redding on Repsol Hondas? Sure that'd be great, but I won't accuse them of bias when they don't.

How can you form such a judgement when the playing field was far from level ?

At the end od the day, dani kept his ride due to passport, there were plenty of deserving riders who could have been given the chance. Take Dovi as van example, he was sacked where as that was not ever going to happen fo dani. Them Marquez comes up from moto2, a spaniard the rules were bent for. Disapite there being deserving riders on the grid who had complied to the rookie rule. Motogp is a resist farce.

rezonator636 · Nov 19, 2013

chopperman

3691501384895755

I normally agree with a lot of your posts but with this particular one i disagree with all of it.

You say cal isn't as good as MM or Lorenzo. That maybe true but all things considered i cant see how that was proved. He not only podiumed a second tier bike and regularly ran with the "top" boys, he also finished 5th in the championship behind only the 4 bikes on the grid capable of winning. Seriously, what else could he have done to prove his worth ?

Secondly, to say going to Ducati is an opportunity to prove himself then maybe get a shot is laughable. Ducati is nothing more than a retirement fund builder to a rider with the knowledge that your never going to get a shot. The bike is a bag of bolts that will never win .... but pays well. If you see out your contract you will still be ruined and unnoticed. Rossi only got a second shot through money and marketability. We can all see that talent kept off the boil never comes back.

Here is my argument. Stoner made the Ducati work. Stoner is at least equal to MM and Lorenzo in terms of talent and skill on the bike. If Cal can make the bike work, that means he's in the same league. I'm not saying he has to win like Stoner did (I don't expect anyone to win on that thing again), but if he can ride around the bike's problems and blow Dovi away, then we'll see the true measure of his talent.

The best riders can overcome the limitations of their bikes. Stoner proved that. Let's see if Cal can prove it as well.

chopperman · Nov 19, 2013

rezonator636

3691551384897443

Here is my argument. Stoner made the Ducati work. Stoner is at least equal to MM and Lorenzo in terms of talent and skill on the bike. If Cal can make the bike work, that means he's in the same league. I'm not saying he has to win like Stoner did (I don't expect anyone to win on that thing again), but if he can ride around the bike's problems and blow Dovi away, then we'll see the true measure of his talent.

The best riders can overcome the limitations of their bikes. Stoner proved that. Let's see if Cal can prove it as well.

Stoner made the ducati work in 07. The same year we changed formula to 800's and every other factory was caught with their pants down. That's see it for what it was, not like he he won another wc on it once the others got their .... together.

Arrabbiata1 · Nov 19, 2013

rezonator636

3691551384897443

Here is my argument. Stoner made the Ducati work. Stoner is at least equal to MM and Lorenzo in terms of talent and skill on the bike. If Cal can make the bike work, that means he's in the same league. I'm not saying he has to win like Stoner did (I don't expect anyone to win on that thing again), but if he can ride around the bike's problems and blow Dovi away, then we'll see the true measure of his talent.

The best riders can overcome the limitations of their bikes. Stoner proved that. Let's see if Cal can prove it as well.

Disagree. Stoner himself has warned about the dangers of comparison. Although he has asserted that the bike Valentino inherited was very similar if not practically identical to the one that he was managing to bring fairly regularly into parc ferme, several years have passed and the Ducati is now a completely different animal. He is also quick to venture that it could be better it could be worse - but to enable comparison with the machine that he rode is pointless.

14X · Nov 19, 2013

chopperman

3691541384897195

How can you form such a judgement when the playing field was far from level ?

At the end od the day, dani kept his ride due to passport, there were plenty of deserving riders who could have been given the chance. Take Dovi as van example, he was sacked where as that was not ever going to happen fo dani. Them Marquez comes up from moto2, a spaniard the rules were bent for. Disapite there being deserving riders on the grid who had complied to the rookie rule. Motogp is a resist farce.

See, now you're just saying stuff I agree with and expecting me to argue. There is indeed some bias in some areas, being Spanish probably opened a few doors for 93 and 99, but it's very hard to make an argument that anyone currently on the grid is in their league without clutching at straws. I think the rookie rule thing was ........, but can you honestly say there's anyone else who could've done what Marquez did this year? I don't think they should've chaged rules for him, but as a viewer, I'm kinda glad they did. Otherwise 2013 would've been the Jorge Lorenzo show, and as much as I want to see him win and take titles, I want there to be some fight there, otherwise we've got everything that's wrong with F1 at the moment.

As for judgement, I'm doing little more than agreeing with Cal.

Cal Crutchlow

Would Jorge Lorenzo still win on my package? Yes, maybe - but that's

him. Would Valentino Rossi or anyone else win on it? I don't think so. I

think Lorenzo is what makes the difference at Yamaha but I'm confident

we can do a good job on what we've got.[/quote]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/motogp/22042391

JohnnyKnockdown · Nov 19, 2013

Jumkie

3691291384883606

I'll claim this next time you accuse me of having a condescending tone. Haha

carry on amigo.

where is nannyK when u need him? :....:

Hes off selling personalized toe clippers to Filipinos. It's a very important job. Toenail fungus can run rampant after a disaster

rezonator636 · Nov 19, 2013

Arrabbiata1

3691571384897809

Disagree. Stoner himself has warned about the dangers of comparison. Although he has asserted that the bike Valentino inherited was very similar if not practically identical to the one that he was managing to bring fairly regularly into parc ferme, several years have passed and the Ducati is now a completely different animal. He is also quick to venture that it could be better it could be worse - but to enable comparison with the machine that he rode is pointless.

All good points, but that's not my argument. What I'm saying is this: we all know the Ducati is a terrible bike, but a top-tier rider has the ability to make a bike look better than it is. If Cal really has the talent that some folks hope he does, then he should be putting the Duc a place or two higher than it deserves, and he should be making Dovi look silly in the process.

My point is, you can see true talent. I haven't watched F1 in forever, but I remember when Fernando Alonso was driving for Minardi and somehow qualifying that glorified go-kart as high as seventeenth on the grid. Or when Michael Shumacher took over the Ferrari (the one Nigel Mansell declared "undriveable") and started making it kinda sorta competitive in his first year. If Cal had that kind of talent, we'd see it. I just don't think he does.

chopperman · Nov 19, 2013

14X

3691601384898869

See, now you're just saying stuff I agree with and expecting me to argue. There is indeed some bias in some areas, being Spanish probably opened a few doors for 93 and 99, but it's very hard to make an argument that anyone currently on the grid is in their league without clutching at straws. I think the rookie rule thing was ........, but can you honestly say there's anyone else who could've done what Marquez did this year? I don't think they should've chaged rules for him, but as a viewer, I'm kinda glad they did. Otherwise 2013 would've been the Jorge Lorenzo show, and as much as I want to see him win and take titles, I want there to be some fight there, otherwise we've got everything that's wrong with F1 at the moment.

As for judgement, I'm doing little more than agreeing with Cal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/motogp/22042391

hahaha, now you're saying things i agree with and expecting me to argue . I think without doubt Lorenzo is the best rider on the grid. I also think MM has a special talent and deserves the ride he has but the rules everyone else complied to should have also applied to him. Maybe if he spent his rookie year on a second tire bike he would have not picked up the points he did.

Do you think there are riders that deserve Dani's ride more than him over the past few years ? Do you think Scott deserved a better ride than he finds himself on? Do you think cal after finishing in the highest place after the top 4 deserved a better ride that the red pig ?

chopperman · Nov 19, 2013

rezonator636

3691631384899545

All good points, but that's not my argument. What I'm saying is this: we all know the Ducati is a terrible bike, but a top-tier rider has the ability to make a bike look better than it is. If Cal really has the talent that some folks hope he does, then he should be putting the Duc a place or two higher than it deserves, and he should be making Dovi look silly in the process.

My point is, you can see true talent. I haven't watched F1 in forever, but I remember when Fernando Alonso was driving for Minardi and somehow qualifying that glorified go-kart as high as seventeenth on the grid. Or when Michael Shumacher took over the Ferrari (the one Nigel Mansell declared "undriveable") and started making it kinda sorta competitive in his first year. If Cal had that kind of talent, we'd see it. I just don't think he does.

The evidence proves otherwise imo. Melandri, Hayden, Dovi, Rossi all top riders who failed on the red pig.

baturro · Nov 19, 2013

chopperman

3691651384900060

The evidence proves otherwise imo. Melandri, Hayden, Dovi, Rossi all top riders who failed on the red pig.

Maybe they are not top riders.

michaelm · Nov 19, 2013

14X

3691601384898869

See, now you're just saying stuff I agree with and expecting me to argue. There is indeed some bias in some areas, being Spanish probably opened a few doors for 93 and 99, but it's very hard to make an argument that anyone currently on the grid is in their league without clutching at straws. I think the rookie rule thing was ........, but can you honestly say there's anyone else who could've done what Marquez did this year? I don't think they should've chaged rules for him, but as a viewer, I'm kinda glad they did. Otherwise 2013 would've been the Jorge Lorenzo show, and as much as I want to see him win and take titles, I want there to be some fight there, otherwise we've got everything that's wrong with F1 at the moment.

As for judgement, I'm doing little more than agreeing with Cal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/motogp/22042391

I think it could be argued earlier in his days with HRC that Dani got favourable treatment whilst only delivering 2 wins a year, whatever the reasons for his relative under performance, but as far as I can see he hasn't really been their number 1 rider for 3 years now, and they made approaches to Lorenzo as well before they got Stoner. I really don't think anyone else would be better than him currently as the second HRC rider, and I don't think Dovi was ever comparable to him.

Jumkie · Nov 19, 2013

baturro

3691491384895128

Strange way to look at things Rog, but to each their own. Your starting to spout off without thinking.

I don't think I like your tone young man. :smug:

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Some Conspiracy stuff to chew on...

rezonator636

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chopperman

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14X

baturro

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rezonator636

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Arrabbiata1

14X

JohnnyKnockdown

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