Sachsenring GP Race Discussion

chopperman said:

This is also a mystery to me. Ive read this entire thread and cant see anybody moaning about the last corner pass. Everybody seems to share the opinion it was a hard but fair pass. Holding someone out wide is a move Rossi has used in the past (gibbers jerez 05) so he is not moaning either. In fact i took is gesture over the line as mocking gibbers as it was a carbon copy move, but then the press say it was a piss take to stoner. Who knows ? thing is no one in this thread has accused stoner of dirty racing, only that if the same mover were used on him he would have whined like he did at Guna 08

I think one thing that has become obvious in this thread is who cannot be bothered to read the whole thread and just assume what was said by reading comment's made by member's who were just trying to get a rise out of others. Note the ones who accuse have not quoted anybody !!

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I guess I am only speaking for myself, but I think it is sometimes easy to carry attitudes generated by reading other sites (crashnet in particular) where most of us would never post on to here.

Babelfish said:

Well, we know you haven't raced with broken bones but I have and I'm sure others here have. Although my 4 fractures in the foot was nothing compared to Rossi's fracture I was out on track after 3 weeks so believe it or not but there are a few here that do understand what's it like to race with injuries.

Besides, looking at Rossi is something we probably do a lot better in the arm chair rather on the bike behind. I'll promise you the view behind there is very limited, especially when you have your own race-bike to worry about.

It's not always the smart thing to transfer your own (lack of) experience onto others as it may not be relevant.

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Do you actually expect me to believe that your judgement of Rossi's injury is more relevant than Stoners? Do me a favour

Tom said:

Has anyone actually objected to Stoner's move? I see no argument against it being a good move, and i think Stoner can be glad to have clearly raised his pace to enter and then win a battle. It should silence many critics of his, but Rossi was pretty clever with his post race comments because now we are all guessing how it would be if positions were reversed rather than talking about the fact that Rossi got beat in a straight up battle to a slower rider.

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Now that's better Tom. You are absolutely right. Intended or not the post race comments now overshadow the actual events.

Besides, what are Stoner to do next time Rossi does a hard pass at him?

Babelfish said:

Besides, what are Stoner to do next time Rossi does a hard pass at him?

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Well he could either take it well and show that he's hardened up and that the Laguna objection came largely from the element of surprise... or complain and be a hypocrite like so many other riders (including the other man in question). I wouldn't judge him for either.

Tom said:

Do you actually expect me to believe that your judgement of Rossi's injury is more relevant than Stoners? Do me a favour

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Other than the usual bumps and bruises and a belly ache, Has stoner been injured in this sport yet ? Please enlighten me if he has raced with broken bones because i can't remember. Maybe he has and im sure because of your strong opinion in stating how qualified stoner is to judge rossi's riding while injured you would be aware of these injuries ?

In the article Stoner said rossi only has a few pins. Thats factually wrong for a start. A rod inserted in the bone is hardly a poxy K-wire is it ?

chopperman said:

Other than the usual bumps and bruises and a belly ache, Has stoner been injured in this sport yet ? Please enlighten me if he has raced with broken bones because i can't remember. Maybe he has and im sure because of your strong opinion in stating how qualified stoner is to judge rossi's riding while injured you would be aware of these injuries ?

In the article Stoner said rossi only has a few pins. Thats factually wrong for a start. A rod inserted in the bone is hardly a poxy K-wire is it ?

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I think poxy k-wires or the conditions they are inserted for anyway are still problematic. Stoner did have a shoulder injury for which he had off-season surgery I think after the 2007 season so perhaps at least had some perspective when he said the shoulder may have been more of a problem for valentino than the fracture, particularly since this is what valentino said himself. I think all these guys even wimps like stoner are pretty good at putting up with pain at least while the adrenaline is surging during a race . Functional impairment seems to be a bigger problem although I have no pretensions to being a sports medicine physician.



My personal non-scientific opinion is that the biggest factor for valentino in this race was psychological as babelfish said and as I believe I said quite early on. Perhaps not very surprisingly valentino would seem to be rather tough psychologically. He doubtless also did not have full strength in the leg; how much this impaired him I have no idea. I don't think casey will be counting on beating him at laguna seca.



(EDIT I left out the imaginary scaphoid fracture confirmed by doctor costa for which he went to the length of having sham surgery).

Tom said:

Do you actually expect me to believe that your judgement of Rossi's injury is more relevant than Stoners? Do me a favour

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No, Stoner's comment is not relevant because he was just trying to dismiss a medical situation he never experienced himself, and which he's not qualified in any way to judge, worrying it could belittle his achievement of beating Rossi at the last corner -- an achievement for which Rossi himself has given him full credit, by the way.



I heard it from Rossi in Italian, very clearly: "He has beaten me". Only after saying this, he smiled and went on with the joke, "at least this time he will not whinge". He did not mention his leg or the shoulder, so Stoner was entitled to a proper answer to the teasing joke, ( he could have said "I'll beat him in all occasions so that I'm sure I'll never have to whinge again") and that would have been amusing, but venturing into such a diagnosis was clumsy, and bad taste. I felt sorry for him.



By the way Stoner shares his pass with Gibernau, who beat Rossi at the same corner in exactly the same way when Rossi was the age Stoner is now, and 100% fit. And, it was for 1st place. That time, Rossi was really pissed (with himself) afterwards!

michaelm said:

I think poxy k-wires or the conditions they are inserted for anyway are still problematic. Stoner did have a shoulder injury for which he had off-season surgery I think after the 2007 season so perhaps at least had some perspective when he said the shoulder may have been more of a problem for valentino than the fracture, particularly since this is what valentino said himself. I think all these guys even wimps like stoner are pretty good at putting up with pain at least while the adrenaline is surging during a race . Functional impairment seems to be a bigger problem although I have no pretensions to being a sports medicine physician.



My personal non-scientific opinion is that the biggest factor for valentino in this race was psychological as babelfish said and as I believe I said quite early on. Perhaps not very surprisingly valentino would seem to be rather tough psychologically. He doubtless also did not have full strength in the leg; how much this impaired him I have no idea. I don't think casey will be counting on beating him at laguna seca.



(EDIT I left out the imaginary scaphoid fracture confirmed by doctor costa for which he went to the length of having sham surgery).

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Your a Doctor mike so i respect your opinion, like i did when i stated Vale would be back in a matter of a few weeks. You then told me with your superior orthopedic experience that open fractures like vale's were very serious indeed and he would more than likely be out for several months if not the whole season (paraphrasing here of course) now stoner has said it's not that impressive bla bla and people like tom are stating stoner is qualified to make these statements. Not personally knowing stoner, for all i know he has a medical degree? i would rather take your word than his

J4rn0 said:

True. But Rossi never brought up his physical condition when commenting Stoner's last-corner pass, on the contrary he stated that Stoner had won the duel, period. So Stoner's comment playing Rossi's physical difficulties down sounds a bit like an uncalled for excuse. Of course there are many who think that a Rossi in good shape and 100% fit would have found that extra bit of speed to win that one. But you do not silence those doubts by offering an amateurish diagnosis of Rossi's medical situation -- you can silence them only by beating Rossi again next Sunday at Laguna.

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I agree,

I dont think he had to say those things, especially that he himself didn't race 3 gp's in 2009 and SURELY for a smaller problem than Rossi's and i dont remember Rossi joked about his sickness. Stoner and many of Rossi hater's are jealous of the attention fans are paying to Rossi, and if he thinks, he may find out that if he had won 7 championships and was 10 years at the top, then he would have recieved much more attention last year. in other words More success will bring more repect and that's why Rossi recieves this much attention.



On the other hand, i also think Rossi should have used a more diplomatic word (or softer) in stead of "Crying"in that sentence. and then Stoner wouldn't have felt bad.



but anyways these guy's are mature enough to defend themselves and fans should only laugh and joke about this. I like to see them both appraciating eachother and race to max of their ability, but if i was in their situation i could have said the same things that they said.





i read your other post which gave more insight to Rossi's after race comments, about If Yam lets him go it's maybe because he is old, and that he takes more time for taking/sharing his decision, all these little things tell me, Rossi is gone to Ducati already, and Casey Vale rivalry can say the same thing. but maybe i,m reading too much in to it.



the only good thing out of their comments is that we are invited for another battle/s between them untill the end of this year.

chopperman said:

Your a Doctor mike so i respect your opinion, like i did when i stated Vale would be back in a matter of a few weeks. You then told me with your superior orthopedic experience that open fractures like vale's were very serious indeed and he would more than likely be out for several months if not the whole season (paraphrasing here of course) now stoner has said it's not that impressive bla bla and people like tom are stating stoner is qualified to make these statements. Not personally knowing stoner, for all i know he has a medical degree? i would rather take your word than his

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Not to belabor this overmuch... but Stoner's been racing a fair number of years now

and while he hasn't personally experienced catastrophic bone or tissue damage,

he's spent a lot of time in company of fellow riders who have, and undoubtedly

been witness to the quick recovery of racers who have experienced a wide variety

of injuries and has most likely discussed their recoveries with them as well - which

would lead to Stoner having formed at the very least, a well-informed opinion on the subject.



I remember during my club racing days - seeing riders break collar bones etc,

and as a newbie, being shocked to see them show up a week or two later

with pins still sticking out of their limbs and jumping on a bike and riding very well.

And these guys were just mostly low-budget privateers - none of them having the kind

of fitness training or hi-bucks medical therapies that Rossi has been privy to. But

after seeing this sort of thing on a pretty regular basis, it didn't seem so extraordinary.

The same must be true for Stoner. I still contend that his remark was a sign of poor

judgement PR-wise.

J4rn0 said:

No, Stoner's comment is not relevant because he was just trying to dismiss a medical situation he never experienced himself, and which he's not qualified in any way to judge, worrying it could belittle his achievement of beating Rossi at the last corner -- an achievement for which Rossi himself has given him full credit, by the way.



I heard it from Rossi in Italian, very clearly: "He has beaten me". Only after saying this, he smiled and went on with the joke, "at least this time he will not whinge". He did not mention his leg or the shoulder, so Stoner was entitled to a proper answer to the teasing joke, ( he could have said "I'll beat him in all occasions so that I'm sure I'll never have to whinge again") and that would have been amusing, but venturing into such a diagnosis was clumsy, and bad taste. I felt sorry for him.

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Wait a minute, didn't you say not to degenerate the conversation? Reading you trying to defend Rossi's ... here then saying Stoner was out of line is amusing; but not surprising. I'll give you this J4rno, I don't mind exchanging with you because despite your leaning toward bopperism, you posses some ability to debate, unlike the bottom dwellers. So Rossi, the hypocrite says "at least he won't whine this time" (perhaps he forgot he did so to Elias, but the whole of the sport dismiss it when he did it) and you are gonna now split hairs in the ...-for-tat that the medical part is off limits? Why? Simply because Rossi didn't mention it? Rossi has had his well documented whining, not limited to on-the-track incidents either, even whines about his own teammate's status. Why is it off limits to call out the overhype of Rossi's injury by the media? Its not like the media (not shy about playing up to the Boppers) are exactly impartial. And you are incorrect, Stoner didn't dismiss the injury, he just said lets not continue to overhype it and gave some insight as to the rustiness a rider experiences from being off the bike. While you are "feeling sorry for him" do you also feel sorry for Rossi when he sticks his foot in his mouth while whining? I'll give you its a ...-for-tat; but lets not all go crucifing Stoner if you are not willing to call out Rossi when he makes similar poor taste commentary, or as you guys like to gloss it over by calling it "Rossi's mind games" when in fact its Rossi being a ......

chopperman said:

Other than the usual bumps and bruises and a belly ache, Has stoner been injured in this sport yet ? Please enlighten me if he has raced with broken bones because i can't remember.

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No, he hasn't raced with broken bones. He said it himself yesterday in his interview.

I remember, he said the same about Horhay, even he had no problems with him as he does with Rossi. while Horhay was riding with broken ankles and couldn't walk.

wow so Rossi makes a statement at Stoner and he fires back. Im sorry but this kid has no ground to stand on, back when he had his scooby-doo mysterious illness and missed several GP races, and he's goging to comment about Rossi's health. Nice. Stoner has been running his mouth too much lately. He's stated the sport is for whimps, if so they why is he NOT winning? I just dont see his logic in his statements. So a guy is riding out there with a ropd in his leg and he's a wimp?



As for the race, I was surprised to see Pedrobot up front like that and Lorenzo not walking away with it, so we actually got to see some nice racing for the top 1-4 spots. Good work riders, thats what this sport needs tight racing, and we got that.



I really cant believe they had a grid restart with 12 riders, LOL seriously. That's a joke. Any ..... that can even ride a bike could have scored a point, how funny. Hell Gibbers could have come out of retirement and scored points, LOL. What I dont like about this is that mid pack is now 6th place, thats messed up!

Keshav said:

Not to belabor this overmuch... but Stoner's been racing a fair number of years now

and while he hasn't personally experienced catastrophic bone or tissue damage,

he's spent a lot of time in company of other racers who have, and undoubtedly

been witness to the quick recovery of riders who have experienced a wide variety

of injuries and has most likely discussed their recoveries with them as well - which would lead

to Stoner having formed at the very least, a well-informed opinion on the subject.

I remember during my club racing days - seeing riders break collar bones etc,

and in the early days, being shocked to see them show up a week or two later

with pins still sticking out of their limbs and jumping on a bike and riding very well.

And these guys were just mostly low-budget privateers - none of them having the kind

of fitness training or hi-bucks medical therapies that Rossi has been privy to. But

after seeing this sort of thing on a pretty regular basis, it didn't seem so extraordinary.

The same must be true for Stoner. I still contend that his remark was a sign of poor

judgement PR-wise.

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Yeah well ive been wiping my arse for a few years now but that does not make me a proctologist .

I would agree with you that stoner has been around many a rider who has ridden with injury but im sure mike will agree that one fracture is not the same as another. I would also say it was not stoners place to make such comments and question his motives behind the reason for making them.

12 bikes on the grid, and Capirossi comes 11th, Hayden comes in 7th, since Stoner found his pace, Hayden is again no where., maybe a 4th place again in the next round can make him a bit motivated.

chopperman said:

This is also a mystery to me. Ive read this entire thread and cant see anybody moaning about the last corner pass. ...



I think one thing that has become obvious in this thread is who cannot be bothered to read the whole thread and just assume what was said by reading comment's made by member's who were just trying to get a rise out of others. Note the ones who accuse have not quoted anybody !!

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Buddy, I should be getting ready for Laguna, but here I am reading the forum for ..... and giggles. Hahaha. Wish you were here compa. Anyway as you will see, let me provide you a few quotes, then elaborate by using your owe words about “detecting” true feelings.

Mick.. Rossi.. 46 No1... :-) said:

Stoner would still be crying now if Rossi had put that move on him. Thank god Rossi's back to put the fun back into Moto GP.

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Mick.. Rossi.. 46 No1... :-) said:

Yeaaaaah thats right. Well done to Stacey for finishing in front of an injured Rossi.

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inam said:

I think Rossi thought Stoner is not gonna make desperate move in the last corner thats why he didn't cover that corner fully and paid the price in the end, it was very aggressive move from Casey but in the end this is racing.

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Talpa said:

Stoner did well too-clean and legal-would have been interesting to hear his reaction if the tables were turned on that last corner pass....

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woody996 said:

Good pass on Rossi by Stoner - tough but nothing Rossi wouldn't have done to Stoner. Not bad for the SOAT (Sookiest Of All Time)

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Talpa' date='18 July 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1279514109' post='245398 said:

that would be 'no'



and the Ducati gets off the turns just fine, how else could Stoner have made the pass.

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Let me start by using your words compa:

chopperman' date='18 July 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1279493616' post='245355 said:

I'm detecting some spite here. ....

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That's exactly how I see it. Read those quotes above by the Boppers. Uhm, do you detect some "spite"? They are just too chickenshit to come out and say their true feelings, but that's ok, that's why I'm here buddy, to separate the Rossi fans from the Rossi Boppers--its my personal etertainment. They are moaning above about "the pass" and you don't need much of a device to detect their sooking.

Babelfish' date='19 July 2010 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1279523272' post='245409 said:

But as EVERYONE of the forum agreed on, the final move was hard but fair. All the more strange that the two CLOWNS on the forum has not only lost their ability for logic reasoning but they clearly lost their ability to read.

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I know you like to hide behind the “lost in translation” card, but while reading, try to decipher ‘meaning’ (its actually part of the comprehension process). Even monkeys can pronounce words on a card but to extrapolate meaning, especially nuance, is a higher process of which I've become aware you are not capable of . Read the quotes above about the pass, your fellow boppers above, its not that hard to detect spite, their not-so-hidden feelings.



...should I continue about how the same Boppers moaning about the pass are also moaning about Stoner's mind games comments?

only peep moaning on here is Casey's press ...... n Barry hoping we soak about it,Are you Casey Barry?

chopperman said:

Yeah well ive been wiping my arse for a few years now but that does not make me a proctologist

.

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Well what about all the '....' talking you do, surely this at very least makes you somewhat familiar with the whole ....... thing.



Speaking of ........ (and believe you mean, I don't lump you in with the Bopper bottom dwellers compa, despite your expertise in the "whipng your own arse" thingy...)

Talpa said:

What else is there to talk about?

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inam said:

what else is there to talk about?

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Originality is not you guy's forte I see. But then what else would be expected from mindless worshippers holding hands and only eco eachothers cues.

Jumkie said:

That's exactly how I see it. Read those quotes above by the Boppers. Uhm, do you detect some "spite"?

They are just too chickenshit to come out and say their true feelings, but that's ok, that's why I'm here buddy, to separate the Rossi fans from the Rossi Boppers--its my personal etertainment.

They are moaning above about "the pass" and you don't need much of a device to detect their sooking.

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Its funny that this is coming from you ....... who himself don't have enough courage to admit that he is the biggest Stoner's ........... on this forum along side with bull .......

chopperman said:

Yeah well ive been wiping my arse for a few years now but that does not make me a proctologist

.

I would agree with you that stoner has been around many a rider who has ridden with injury but im sure mike will agree that one fracture is not the same as another. I would also say it was not stoners place to make such comments and question his motives behind the reason for making them.

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Maybe you just need motivation. Here, try this simple aptitude test.