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Rules changes in wake of 2015 discussion

There is still zero reason that Rossi was allowed to keep points from Sepang. Would Rossi or his fans have preferred starting last with a points lead or a points deficit and starting where he qualified . Considering Valencia is maybe Lorenzo's strongest track and Rossi's Waterloo , I guarantee they would choose the former, which is exactly what they got. I mean lets get real, they had to do something , and either choice takes the championship to the final race, but they chose the option that gave Rossi the best chance to win a title. The new panel is a ....... joke since anyone on it can be biased towards one rider or another , plus if they are financed by Dorna, they will have Dorna's best interest at heart. That's just the way it is. A rule for purposely riding another rider off track should be cut and dry, no analysis needed, automatic dq from that event. Further penalties can be discussed afterward if warranted.
 
They will be charged with all incidents of unfair play, especially of rule that mandates responsible behavior by the riders.

Considering this panel is being constructed because Rossi and his fans feel he was unjustly penalized, who do you think the quote above is aimed at. Could this new panel decide that Marquez's riding was unfair and irresponsible even though he did absolutely nothing wrong, sure sounds that way.
 
plus if they are financed by Dorna, they will have Dorna's best interest at heart.


Everyone in MotoGP is financed by Dorna in one way or another, at least at an organizational level.

Javier Alonso is a Dorna executive.
Mike Webb is, I believe, paid by IRTA. IRTA receives all of its income from Dorna.
Loris Capirossi is paid by Dorna for his role as Safety Officer.
Franco Uncini is the FIM representative, and is paid by the FIM. The bulk of the FIM's income (to the tune of several million a year) comes from Dorna, for the rights to organize MotoGP.

Part of organizing MotoGP is ensuring the fair and safe running of MotoGP races. The officials involved in making that happen need paying. That money needs to come from somewhere. Who else will pay if not Dorna?

The fact is that any honorable person who takes their responsibilities seriously will not be swayed from making the right decision by the people who pay them. Finding honorable people is the hardest part of Dorna's job. I believe they have succeeded when it comes to Race Direction.
 
The fact is that any honorable person who takes their responsibilities seriously will not be swayed from making the right decision by the people who pay them. Finding honorable people is the hardest part of Dorna's job. I believe they have succeeded when it comes to Race Direction.
just have to agree to disagree
By not removing Rossi from the track and subsequently handing him nothing more than than a slap on the wrist, it is hard for me to deduce that they were doing nothing more than acting in Dorna and Rossi's best interest.
 
just have to agree to disagree
By not removing Rossi from the track and subsequently handing him nothing more than than a slap on the wrist, it is hard for me to deduce that they were doing nothing more than acting in Dorna and Rossi's best interest.

A slap on the wrist that ensured that he could not win the title, and left him reliant on other riders to help him.
 
A slap on the wrist that ensured that he could not win the title, and left him reliant on other riders to help him.

It ensured nothing of the sort. All his penalty achieved was finishing 20 seconds behind 3rd instead of 5. Given his times throughout the weekend, he was going to be reliant on other riders unless Lorenzo crashed. Him starting 12 th where he qualified would not have changed anything. Anyone not labeled a bopper would agree that starting 4th would have made no difference either, unless he simply crashed Lorenzo at turn 1.
 
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A slap on the wrist that ensured that he could not win the title, and left him reliant on other riders to help him.

But he finished where he would have finished in Valencia regardless of his grid position?

He didn't have the pace of the front 3 all weekend. Had he started nearer the front, he could only have hoped to disrupt their rhythm/race pace, which is the exact thing he was bitching about Marquez supposedly doing in PI and Sepang, which would have been very ironic.
 
Everyone in MotoGP is financed by Dorna in one way or another, at least at an organizational level.

Javier Alonso is a Dorna executive.
Mike Webb is, I believe, paid by IRTA. IRTA receives all of its income from Dorna.
Loris Capirossi is paid by Dorna for his role as Safety Officer.
Franco Uncini is the FIM representative, and is paid by the FIM. The bulk of the FIM's income (to the tune of several million a year) comes from Dorna, for the rights to organize MotoGP.

Part of organizing MotoGP is ensuring the fair and safe running of MotoGP races. The officials involved in making that happen need paying. That money needs to come from somewhere. Who else will pay if not Dorna?

The fact is that any honorable person who takes their responsibilities seriously will not be swayed from making the right decision by the people who pay them. Finding honorable people is the hardest part of Dorna's job. I believe they have succeeded when it comes to Race Direction.

I'd appreciate if you could reply to my response that I made to you earlier in this topic. Thanks.

Edit: Check post #59.
 
I'd appreciate if you could reply to my response that I made to you earlier in this topic. Thanks.

Edit: Check post #59.

I have precisely zero interest in debating this with anyone. If The Lord God Almighty came down from the heavens on his blazing chariot demanding to discuss my view of the Rossi/Sepang clash, I would tell him to piss off.

I am all debated out on the subject. Your mind is made up. There is nothing I can do to persuade you, so I won't bother trying.
 
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I have precisely zero interest in debating this with anyone. If The Lord God Almighty came down from the heavens on his blazing chariot demanding to discuss my view of the Rossi/Sepang clash, I would tell him to piss off.

I am all debated out on the subject. Your mind is made up. There is nothing I can do to persuade you, so I won't bother trying.

Part of the reply was about what you wrote in your column.
 
A slap on the wrist that ensured that he could not win the title, and left him reliant on other riders to help him.
With all 'due' respect Krops, you seem to put an incongruent bias in favor of a body based on a penalty Race Direction were FORCED to issue. You seem to bank the impartiality of a body who were faced to make a decision on an event that was the equivalent of a crime caught on tape, in real time, where we've seen an intervention in real time which they deferred, for far less obviously deliberate violations; however in this case the action they took was far less than was expected in a normal world. That is incongruent.

When have Race Direction openly admitted (a slip to be sure but quite revealing) their intervention was influenced by the implications of 'a rider's' points? Certainly they did not have Marquez's points in mind, did they? So whom's points are more important? Why is it on this occasion the points trumped immediate action? It seems odd (untenable if I'm honest) that you would point to this action as "proof" of the impartiality of the members tasked to make a decision where impartiality is supposed to purposefully NOT be influenced by the contestant they are presiding over, where clearly, and by their own admission, it did BECAUSE it was Rossi.

Krops, again, I appreciate you offering us your opinions and unique perspective here. Going forward, I want you to know that when I disagree with your opinions, it's just that, a disagreement, nothing personal.

Krops, we all have strong opinions on various GP subjects, the Rossi perpetrated debacle of 2015 is just the latest of what I consider a long line of Rossi-centric episodes. Its a reality of the sport, and frankly it continues to exist because the overwhelming majority of all experts involved are willing enablers. I get Dorna's position, Rossi-centrism translates into dollars for them, but I'm astonished at how aligned the reporting of the sport is cozy to Dorna's narrative. To be sure, you're an oasis (that's a compliment) though frankly, I have found your insistance that Marquez was an active participant (based on a hunch) in a "feud" with Rossi quite disturbing, especially if we consider your entire opinion covering the matter hinges solely on his riding at Sepang (the rest of which has been subsequently dovetailed into the case against Marc).

If I may borrow this quote from Dennis Noyes, "The journalists who used "kick" in their headlines were irresponsable..." I'd like to adapt his admonishing to include journalists who insist a Rossi’s perpetrated debacle as a "feud" between "Marquez vs Rossi". Its a classic one sided bullying episode which is being ' irresponsibly' described as a war. Its inaccurate at best, part of the ........ doctored narrative at worst.

This unchallenged dynamic i describe above is part of the reason Dorna can in haste create the Rossi rule--a fundemental change to the penalty system that has the effect of insulating him while creating a loophole, and the reason Dorna can propose on paper an 'independent' body, one as "independent" as RD is now, in reaction to Rossi's fandom's allegation that Dorna was in cahoots with Marquez's mastermind conspiracy. The key word in the reactionary change is "fair play", the rationale for the inception of such a body. The notion of "fair play" is decidedly an indictment on Marc Marquez, after all, Carmelo's repeated assertions that "we all know what happened" was in reference to a condition that he (and apparently most journalists, experts, and the majority of fans) believed Marquez perpetrated on the championship but wasn't punishable! I feel compelled to repeat, this entire exercise hinges on the belief that so happens to parallel Rossi’s accusation--that Marquez 'rode like a ....' at Sepang. THEREFORE...the 'provocation' as a matter of fact, therefore a "feud", therefore the Rossi rule change to the penalty system, therefore the creation of a new Race Direction exactly like the old Race Direction, and so on and so forth.


IMMACULATE CONCEPTION:

For the entire house of cards to stand that Marquez was out to destroy Rossi's championship, it is absolutely necessary for the pivotal point to hinge on the very act of faith (contray to the age old victim - perpetrator dynamic no less) that he 'rode like a ....' at Sepang. Without it nothing else makes any sense. Not one other point of contention can be cited, as that side of the ledge is empty except for this single point--that Marc was provocateur at the Sepang race. This is the Immaculate Conception point for journalists, experts, Dorna, and everybody else sympathetic to Rossi's accusation.
 
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There seems to be no in-between on this subject. I still contend that MM was not necessarily conspiring to take the championship away from Rossi - but rather he's was just being a juvenile .... because he was butt-hurt over Rossi's stupid comments. .... that happens to change Rossi's results for the better or worse are ipso facto a matter of a vast conspiracy around certain circles. Nothing is simply as it appears. ;) But as Kropo said, why bother to drag out this conversation, when everyone has made up their mind?
 
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There seems to be no in-between on this subject. I still contend that MM was not necessarily conspiring to take the championship away from Rossi - but rather he's was just being a juvenile .... because he was butt-hurt over Rossi's stupid comments. .... that happens to change Rossi's results for the better or worse are ipso facto a matter of a vast conspiracy around certain circles. Nothing is simply as it appears. ;) But as Kropo said, why bother to drag out this conversation, when everyone has made up their mind?

What the conspiracy theorists overlook is the point that Povol has made on several occasions; ie that Rossi was simply not fast enough late season. Any conspiracy could easily have been subverted simply by Rossi being fast enough to get in front of MM or Lorenzo at PI and Sepang and stay there, or by him being faster than Pedrosa at several races or Iannone at PI. I suppose he might have had a different approach at Valencia had the back of the grid penalty not totally removed the possibility of him finishing better than 4th on his own merits, but as others have said it seems unlikely he would have had the pace to finish any better than that anyway.

The points that Kropotkin made which are incontrovertible imo is that the Spanish conspiracy theory involving Dorna is ridiculous, it was overwhelmingly in their interest for Rossi to win the title, and that there is not much way around whoever is on Race Direction or any equivalent being in Dorna's employ given they own the sport. From my point of view at least the FIM are at some remove and know something about the sport (as opposed to Dorna), but as I said I am inclined to believe David that the current members of RD are honest men. My general opinion of Dorna is that they are not infrequently incompetent and that Carmelo tries to imitate F1 too much apparently not realising bike racing is a different sport, but that they do not contrive actual race results.

Conspiracy theories are usually suspect by their nature in any case, but given at least one conspiracy held by many, ie that Dorna because they are Spanish conspired to help a Spanish rider win the title , is patently insane as David says, surely this hardly lends credence to other conspiracy theories advanced by the same people. I certainly think that the penalty Rossi received was the minimum he could have been given, and perhaps RD could have been influenced by factors such as Rossi's stature in the sport, a desire not to completely decide the championship off the track and make the last round a dead rubber, or even some anticipation of the criticism they would receive, but in the end they did give him a penalty, and a back of the grid penalty in general terms is a severe penalty if not as severe as a disqualification.

As you say few minds will change now, but this all started with the supposed conspiracy at PI, which remains ridiculous imo, given Dani Pedrosa was 5 seconds down the road from the supposedly sandbagging MM on the same bike despite having competitive or better pace than MM at other late season races, even apart from that sandbagger actually winning the race.
 
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The points that Kropotkin made which are incontrovertible imo is that the Spanish conspiracy theory involving Dorna is ridiculous, it was overwhelmingly in their interest for Rossi to win the title, and that there is not much way around whoever is on Race Direction or any equivalent being in Dorna's employ given they own the sport.

This point made by Kropo and your tacit agreement of it reminds me of when Talpa argued: If Rossi is so powerful, why didn't he get Indy repaved? To which Kropo replied, Rossi is not God (or something to that effect).

Its why I challenged the rationale, that Race Direction (and by extension Dorna) are "incontrovertible" in their "independence" simply because they issued a penalty to Rossi; when placed in a position that their hand was forced to do something if there ever was such an occasion! That something then came in the form of the minimum possible penalty. This is what you're going to hang your hat on? To propose that RD are incontrovertible, the proof is in the fact they made a decision in the interest of Dorna to keep Rossi in championship? Because that is what happened. EVERYTHING Race Direction did was to keep that championship alive! And they admitted as much that their decision not to issue the black flag (which would have effectively ended that championship) was because of the impact on Rossi's points! Which part of Race Direction's decision was to allow him to keep the 16 points he obtained ILLEGALLY--that was part of the "penalty".

What am I missing here? Are you and Kropo saying that the only way Race Direction's integrity comes into question is if they don't issue Rossi a penalty? The man ceased to race, looked over twice, with the obvious deliberate intention of a cliff diver, and this sequence led to his target crashing out! Race Direction is forced to act, and this decision to act is proof that Race Direction are beyond reproach? The world has gone mad.

(Incidentally, Indy did subsequently get repaved. Ah the irony.)
 
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Exactly correct in regard to the telemetry and "kick" imo, and pretty much what has been argued by several on here.

He is also quite possibly correct that people don't change their minds once things become a matter of faith/belief (this doesn't change people who disagree with me about this matter being wrong:eek:), but I change my mind quite frequently in regard to scientific matters on the basis of evidence.
 
Exactly correct in regard to the telemetry and "kick" imo, and pretty much what has been argued by several on here.

He is also quite possibly correct that people don't change their minds once things become a matter of faith/belief (this doesn't change people who disagree with me about this matter being wrong:eek:), but I change my mind quite frequently in regard to scientific matters on the basis of evidence.

I had a logical position about the telemetry and brake pressure spike. You should read it.
 
Exactly correct in regard to the telemetry and "kick" imo, and pretty much what has been argued by several on here.

With all due respect to Kropo, tell me Mike, when was the last time a journalist took the position to argue against the release of information?

Sorry Krops, but I find that position odd.
 
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This point made by Kropo and your tacit agreement of it reminds me of when Talpa argued: If Rossi is so powerful, why didn't he get Indy repaved? To which Kropo replied, Rossi is not God (or something to that effect).

Its why I challenged the rationale, that Race Direction (and by extension Dorna) are "incontrovertible" in their "independence" simply because they issued a penalty to Rossi; when placed in a position that their hand was forced to do something if there ever was such an occasion! That something then came in the form of the minimum possible penalty. This is what you're going to hang your hat on? To propose that RD are incontrovertible, the proof is in the fact they made a decision in the interest of Dorna to keep Rossi in championship? Because that is what happened. EVERYTHING Race Direction did was to keep that championship alive! And they admitted as much that their decision not to issue the black flag (which would have effectively ended that championship) was because of the impact on Rossi's points! Which part of Race Direction's decision was to allow him to keep the 16 points he obtained ILLEGALLY--that was part of the "penalty".

What am I missing here? Are you and Kropo saying that the only way Race Direction's integrity comes into question is if they don't issue Rossi a penalty? The man ceased to race, looked over twice, with the obvious deliberate intention of a cliff diver, and this sequence led to his target crashing out! Race Direction is forced to act, and this decision to act is proof that Race Direction are beyond reproach? The world has gone mad.

(Incidentally, Indy did subsequently get repaved. Ah the irony.)
That was a subsidiary point. Also while you and I can see no way that Rossi could have avoided being penalised, which I think is probably David's view if God on his flaming chariot managed to persuade him to talk, many disagree, which is the whole point of all this. Many among the faithful think MM should have been punished, probably capitally.

What I was saying was incontrovertible was that it is an insane conspiracy theory to posit that Dorna would conspire against Rossi to hand a Spanish rider the title. I agree with you that if they were to conspire in any rider's favour that rider would be Rossi. They have also imo as well as yours changed the rules regarding RD because of the Spanish conspiracy allegations, not because they are worried by anyone who thinks Rossi got too light a penalty. The other point concerning which I agreed with David is that virtually anyone in any position is going to be paid by Dorna directly or indirectly.

I do think Dorna have played around with the rules at times at least partly with the aim of benefiting or disadvantaging particular riders; you actually thought I was the conspiracy theorist for having this opinion in regard to the late rule changes which affected the 2012 Honda. I don't think they contrive or attempt to contrive actual individual race results.

(EDIT I was agreeing with what David said about the likelihood of the data definitively proving anything in regard to the putative kick, btw. I only quickly scanned his article, and hadn't thought he was arguing one way or the other about the data being released, and would agree that journalists in general arguing for data to be withheld is bizarre. Absolutely no doubt that the contact whatever its nature which led to MM going down was entirely down to Rossi as I read David as saying; whether he deliberately kicked MM can ony be determined if RD bring out the mind reading equipment or abilities which allowed them to determine MM's bad intentions in the Sepang race, and they are being disbanded now anyway.
 
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That was a subsidiary point. Also while you and I can see no way that Rossi could have avoided being penalised, which I think is probably David's view if God on his flaming chariot managed to persuade him to talk, many disagree, which is the whole point of all this. Many among the faithful think MM should have been punished, probably capitally.

What I was saying was incontrovertible was that it is an insane conspiracy theory to posit that Dorna would conspire against Rossi to hand a Spanish rider the title. I agree with you that if they were to conspire in any rider's favour that rider would be Rossi. They have also imo as well as yours changed the rules regarding RD because of the Spanish conspiracy allegations, not because they are worried by anyone who thinks Rossi got too light a penalty. The other point concerning which I agreed with David is that virtually anyone in any position is going to be paid by Dorna directly or indirectly.

I do think Dorna have played around with the rules at times at least partly with the aim of benefiting or disadvantaging particular riders; you actually thought I was the conspiracy theorist for having this opinion in regard to the late rule changes which affected the 2012 Honda. I don't think they contrive or attempt to contrive actual individual race results.
Fair enough. Thanks for clarification.

I don't know how I got sucked in to rehashing this crap. Especially when there is a test going on.

Edit: oh yeah, I know why, because of the news that Dorna had created a new Race Direction2.0. Kinda reminds me of Factory2.
 

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