Mate, my point is that the ....... linked article explaining it is ....... gibberish. Would someone be kind enough to paraphrase it?
Rules changes in wake of 2015 discussion
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Totally agree.
The article is says nothing about the structure or the responsibility.
It says that Webb will be one but that we may (or may not) have another permanent member and well, we aren't sure yet what they will do.
It is an appeasing fluff piece written to placate the raving and shouting masses about injustice whilst they go 'sht, what do we do'.
And btw, comments actually were general not aimed at you
And btw, comments actually were general not aimed at you
The ........ Seriously?? [emoji39]
... Well, my comment was like yours mate... Into the (rhetorical) great wide open.
I just get the feeling that people glance at these things and bounce off the muddled gibberish with their ernest prejudices and pre-conceptions firmly and self-satisfyingly reinforced... It's like looking at clouds.
I honestly can't understand what the .... he is on about.
Joined Oct 2006
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Your Mom's House
Povol, for a BLACK FLAG to be issued, the violation must be:
●Deliberately harmful
or
●Reckless endangerment
What Rossi did was "deliberately harmful" AND "reckless endangerment.
Our friend Kropo disagrees, because he think Rossi didn't "intend" to cause Marc harm (how he determined this God knows); notwithstanding, that still leaves "reckless endangerment". What I cannot wrap around my brain is Kropo (who is on the "sane" side of the spectrum) believes the 'old' Race Direction did the right thing (while I'm at it, so does Dennis Noyes, who seems obsessed with disproving the existence of a "kick" as if it's remotely relevant).
Again, any of those two conditions would sufficed to merit a black flag, that's what "or" means.
Mike Webb is on record as saying they deferred taking action because of the implications on the points (championship). That means he didn't think the either of the two conditions above were met! Why? God knows, perhaps as Michael said, they deployed the same mind reading equipment they used to determine Marc was guilty of provocation on Rossi’s mind, surely. Not to mention Rossi, the perpetrator of the entire incident, though admitted to "deliberately" setting in motion the sequence that led to the crash also said 'but I didn't mean to cause him harm'. Because guys who run you off the road didn't mean whatever happens after...they run you off the road. Ok, as untenable as a position that Kropo etal are taking (with respect) there still is the condition of "reckless endangerment".
Or..reckless endangerment=black flag.
No intent needed. No "kick" needed.
So Mike Webb will be on Race Direction 2.0, you think they (whoever his new partner are in the booth) will view an incident involving Rossi any differently? If, even the most 'moderate' voices like Kropo and Noyes think the 'old' Race Direction did the right thing?
And let me add the Orange elephant in the room, it's not only about kowtowing to disgruntled Rossi fans that is at play here, but also to pacify those who 'believe' Race Direction should have taken action against Marquez for (to use a word from Noyes) "phantom" provocation by Marquez. The subtle message is the "new" Race Direction will now look at clean racing against Rossi as cause for action.
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NJ
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Hurricane, WV
I actually had what loosely might be called a discussion on another forum where I seldom now venture with a poster who was one of several on that forum who claimed that Honda not releasing the Sepang telemetry was proof that MM was the responsible party for the crash, and that it was MM and Honda concocting "kick" allegations which had led to Rossi's penalty, before questioning my comprehension and intellect for not understanding the premise of his posts.
I mostly agree with Gaz particularly about "judicial" matters, but this change has pretty clearly been made because of the allegations of a "Spanish conspiracy" against uncle Carmelo, although if it also has the effect that in future of forestalling appeals to the CAS for single race matters I guess that would be good, because that avenue would not have been open if a penalty had been applied during the race.
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Joined Oct 2006
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Your Mom's House
Haha, yup. Though im not sure if you're agreeing with me or saying because they replaced the Spanish guy that's real change. Anyway, let's do this by the numbers brother, it seems there is a bit of confusion. And as Cool says, the "explanation" is gibberish, because in fact it's .........
1. The reason there is any change at all is because Dorna are being accused RD acted in Dorna's interest unfairly punishing Rossi while not holding Marquez accountable.
No confusion thus far, right?
Yes, as insane as that is, that's why we are getting a "revamping" of Race Direction.
They (Dorna) are not reacting to the minority of us Powersliders that felt RD didn't go far enough, they are reacting to the overwhelming majority of Rossi fans that accused Dorna of being part of a Spanish Conspiracy to unfairly punish Rossi!
You still with me?
Mike Webb (not Spanish) was the architect of accusing Marquez of provocation, based soley on mind reading and basically saying, if we could, we'd punish the LYING CHEATING ........ This gave rocket fuel to Rossi and all those disgruntled fans to suddenly accuse Dorna of being the devil (they were saints when they brokered the deal for Rossi on a Yamaha though). Mike Webb gave Rossi and his fans the following narrative: You see, i told you so, I'm right because Mr. Webb agrees with me, an OFFICIAL of GP that Marquez is a cheating whore.
So "action" had to be taken! Rossi's fans demand justice! (No, not us who think Rossi should have been black flagged and suspended). Ok, lets examine that earth shattering "change":
Javier Alanso, Dorna's representative, you're out! You sir are the fall guy. However, MIKE WEBB stay right there son, you're in. (Who the other two stewards will be remains to be seen, they may or may not be Spanish, we don't know, nobody knows. And nobody knows because this is a knee-jerk reaction to appease the insane disgruntled fans which is why this is a stumbling stuttering chaotic cluster .... in progress, hence why that link is gibberish.
The appeasement of the Yellow Hordes: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Check.
Actual real change? Not so much.
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Joined Jul 2015
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Hurricane, WV
Not disagreeing in final outcome, only that there technically was a change.
It was a knee jerk reaction to satisfy a large segment of the fan base.
The old cup slight of hand game.
They put the Dorna Rep/ evil Spaniard guy under the cup, moved it around with some slight of hand and gave you a RD, that is basically the same, less the dorna part, but will basically be the same group, in a different room.
End of day, waste of money and time.
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Your Mom's House
Hilarious, ain't it? One of the four members of the "former" race direction was "safety officer" Loris Capirossi (who i like btw); however allow me to point out the irony that its been argued he was the last person to deserve a black flag because of his taking out of Harada was considered "deliberately harmful" and "recklessly endangering". But he's Italian NOT Spanish, so he's okay.
First off Jums .......... I have said it many times and will say it again (and it will piss you and JPS off) but Race Control got the decision to NOT black flag Rossi correct.
As for not changing .... ............ they have not as yet mandated any change but they have gone public and stated a 3 man Steward panel ......... that is a change if/when applied and should be an improvement where that 3 man panel is controlled by FIM.
FIM are not DORNA and whilst I suspect that they are supported financially by DORNA to a degree, the FIM control far more than just MotoGP
As for not changing .... ............ they have not as yet mandated any change but they have gone public and stated a 3 man Steward panel ......... that is a change if/when applied and should be an improvement where that 3 man panel is controlled by FIM.
FIM are not DORNA and whilst I suspect that they are supported financially by DORNA to a degree, the FIM control far more than just MotoGP
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Tennessee
More jibberish from Carmelo and still no one will say what their mission is . We had a meeting to plan a meeting to discuss the meeting. Carmelo Ezpeleta on latest GP Commission meeting
So they are differentiating RD and the panel of stewards by including RD in the stewards panel. Erm...
That sounds exactly like the place I word (well the bosses anyway) - they have more meetings than the bloody state jockey cluds combined
Being fair, there needs to be a conduit between the two (the stewards and Race Direction) so having a representative involved is useful but the real critical roles will be the remaining two. Whether that conduit should be as a sitting member or a type of associate member, well that would be open for discussion
I personally hope that one is extremely knowledgeable on the rules and personally I see an opportunity for that person to actually come from outside the MotoGP fold as they need to be free or preconceptions (a very hard task given recent rumblings).
I expect the panel to be along the lines of 1 from Race Direction and it has been said Webb, I suspect that IRTA or a person from within the paddock plus a third being from outside the paddock. Time will tell and who knows, it may even include lawyers ..................
Actually Gaz, it's not knowledge of the rules they need it's knowledge of he sport because there is only one short paragraph in the entire document about riding in a responsible manner and not causing danger. It's completely subjective. Everything else in the rules is black and white and easily managed by RD. So what it's really about is making a subjective judgement about the behaviour of the riders being outside what is normally acceptable, taking into account the context of the incident. For example, based on their experience of the sport, deciding if, in their opinion, MM was "riding like a ....". There ain't no "riding like a ...." clause defining this concept in great detail. And there is no detailed codification of what is an acceptable line for Rossi to take or even about leaving room for other riders. Nothing. It doesn't say he's not allowed to kick either which, if you examine the video frame-by-frame, he clearly did.
If you read the rules you will see what I mean.
http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/download/57152/no_cache/1/
I don't think there is anything seriously wrong with the existing system actually, the only problem I saw was the lack of a formal and confidential process for Rossi to submit his complaint about MM, as opposed to doing it in the media. But, on the other hand, controversy helps Dorna and the FIM so, I don't see that happening any time soon.
What they seem to be proposing is to broaden the constitution of the judging group in order to manage (hysterical and uninformed) public perception about whether or not justice was "seen to be done". Which is fair enough. I just wish they could find someone who is literate enough to help them express it in well structured English.
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