Rules changes in wake of 2015 discussion

I have some sympathy for that argument, but I disagree. At no point did Rossi intend to cause Marquez bodily harm. He had stopped racing, and the collision was inevitable, but he did not nerf Marquez off the way Capirossi did to Harada.

Kropotkin said:

"They" are doing no such thing, because it is, as you rightly say, completely impossible. If such a rule existed, then they would have had to penalize Pedrosa for Aragon, Iannone for Phillip Island, Marquez for Sepang, and taking it to the extreme, Marquez and Pedrosa for being between Rossi and Lorenzo at Valencia.

As I understand it, the changes they are looking for relate to the way disciplinary punishments are enforced during the race. This is basically about trying to get Race Direction (or a body or judge which will act solely on disciplinary matters during races) to enforce penalties as much as possible during races, rather than after the fact.

That is a ....... stupid idea. Like the death penalty, in-race penalties cannot be overturned. It is also very easy to make a mistake when you are under pressure to make a decision. Better to wait until the race is over, then review the incident as carefully as necessary to determine who did what, and who should be punished.

I have a list of people as long as my arm to talk to at Sepang.

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In most cases I would agree, but when a rider leaves the racing line, sizes up another rider not once, but twice for everyone to see, there is no need to wait or evaluate , he should be removed from the track instantly. Allowing Rossi to keep 16 points after purposely running Marquez wide causing him to go down, just smacks of the ........ that many fans complain about when it comes to fairness. Marquez was black flagged for misinterpreting an hour old rule that almost cost him a championship, Rossi gets to run a guy off track and keep 16 points to enhance his chances at a championship. Had they done the right thing [black flagged] him, a lot of this soap opera could have been avoided . No one, even the yellow hoard,would have been caught off guard had they removed Rossi from the race. They may have bitched but in their heart they would have known it was the right thing to do. Now you have a different dynamic heading into Valencia. Lorenzo leads the championship and the hoard has very little hope and you eliminate the last childish accusations that Rossi threw out about Marquez protecting Lorenzo. This entire fiasco since the incident is starting to feel orchastrated. What is they say, never let a crisis go to waste. The powers that be are eating this .... up.

Kropotkin said:

"They" are doing no such thing, because it is, as you rightly say, completely impossible. If such a rule existed, then they would have had to penalize Pedrosa for Aragon, Iannone for Phillip Island, Marquez for Sepang, and taking it to the extreme, Marquez and Pedrosa for being between Rossi and Lorenzo at Valencia.

As I understand it, the changes they are looking for relate to the way disciplinary punishments are enforced during the race. This is basically about trying to get Race Direction (or a body or judge which will act solely on disciplinary matters during races) to enforce penalties as much as possible during races, rather than after the fact.

That is a ....... stupid idea. Like the death penalty, in-race penalties cannot be overturned. It is also very easy to make a mistake when you are under pressure to make a decision. Better to wait until the race is over, then review the incident as carefully as necessary to determine who did what, and who should be punished.

I have a list of people as long as my arm to talk to at Sepang.

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In most cases I would agree, but when a rider leaves the racing line, sizes up another rider not once, but twice for everyone to see, there is no need to wait or evaluate , he should be removed from the track instantly. Allowing Rossi to keep 16 points after purposely running Marquez wide causing him to go down, just smacks of the ........ that many fans complain about when it comes to fairness. Marquez was black flagged for misinterpreting an hour old rule that almost cost him a championship, Rossi gets to run a guy off track and keep 16 points to enhance his chances at a championship. Had they done the right thing [black flagged] him, a lot of this soap opera could have been avoided . No one, even the yellow hoard,would have been caught off guard had they removed Rossi from the race. They may have bitched but in their heart they would have known it was the right thing to do. Know you have a different dynamic heading into Valencia. Lorenzo leads the championship and the hoard has very little hope and you eliminate the last childish accusations that Rossi threw out about Marquez protecting Lorenzo. This entire fiasco since the incident is starting to feel orchastrated. What is they say, never let a crisis go to waste. The powers that be are eating this .... up.

Kropotkin said:

I have some sympathy for that argument, but I disagree. At no point did Rossi intend to cause Marquez bodily harm. He had stopped racing, and the collision was inevitable, but he did not nerf Marquez off the way Capirossi did to Harada.

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Thanx for taking the time to have a little exchange Krops. I find your opinions fascinating. This whole debacle has presented so much meat for us GP addicts, eh? I don't know if you've compared your metrics, but I bet it's grown exponentially compared to last year. That is to say, I'm sure you're infinitely more busy, so I appreciate you coming on to this forum. I don't know if you're sick of rehashing this thing, I don't know. Some days I'm done with it, then Rossi goes on a rant demanding respect and I'm back balls deep in the soap opera of discussion.


Uhm, i honestly don't understand how that is relevant. But certainly from my perspective, it would seem unlikely Rossi had no intent on causing Marc harm since VR purposeful used the controls of his machine to adjust it's position to use it as a barrier. Keep in mind Rossi had already gesticulated and flailed his arms and body language in disgust to what he must have 'perceived' was an attack on him. Basically we are talking about an episode of classic 'road rage'. I'm not sure it's reasonable to 'believe' a guy who just runs you off the road, in a fit of momentary 'madness' was simultaneously lucid and forbearing enough not to cause you injury (bodily harm).

We've had some great discussions on this forum regarding the question of what Rossi "intended", to be sure, it's illusive outside a statement by God himself (not that we would believe God read VR's mind anyway). I prefer we say, 'we believe'...bla bla his "intent". Because it is a matter of faith.

Notwithstanding, the belief that Rossi did not "intend" to cause Marquez "bodily harm" is difficult to accept when you consider these two realities must coexist:

1. A man who was momentarily 'out of his mind' angrily just ran you off the road, in an act extremely rare if ever seen in a generation
2. was just enough 'inside' of 'out-of-his-mind' to give him the benefit of the doubt he wasn't trying to hurt you.


I get the "passion crime" defense, where the perpetrator claims they reacted and didn't "mean/intend" to kill that ....... cheating spouse! Surely what we chose to believe Rossi's "intent" was is a reflection from 'our personal' perspective of the man. Me, I think Rossi "intended" to put Marc on his .... Did he "intended" for Marc then to be stuck under his bike pinned by a peg and hope another rider careened into him? No. (Though that was a real possibility, despite suddenly so many people certain an 'unforseen death could not occur at Sepang'). Rossi not intending Marc be hurt seems irrelevant...and unlikely.

The difference between Capirossi/ Harada verse Rossi/Marquez is not a question of 'intent' to harm but rather perhaps the element of premeditation. Both Italians 'intended' to put their rival on their .... Neither I think 'intended' for their rival to be seriously injured, though Krops, Rossi was upset with Marc whereas Capirossi was more interested in keeping Harada from collecting points. So even comparing these two examples, it's reasonable to believe Rossi 'intended' for some harm to come to Marquez. Rossi was pissed off! What do you want to do to someone who just pissed you off? Punch him right? (Or kick him).



Krops, .... Rossi bro. Where would Nicky be lapping on a ZX-10? If you want to introduce a rule, lets ban the CBR1000RR and put Hayden on a ZX-10 effective immediately. We can call it the 'lets not waste awesome talent and beautiful smiles' rule.



.

Kropotkin said:

I have some sympathy for that argument, but I disagree. At no point did Rossi intend to cause Marquez bodily harm. He had stopped racing, and the collision was inevitable, but he did not nerf Marquez off the way Capirossi did to Harada.

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Makes zero difference if he intended to do bodily harm, you can shatter a wrist falling off a bike that is sitting still, I've seen it happen. With that in mind what if Marquez shatters his wrist and ends his career. You simply cannot put qualifiers on these type of instances. Are we going to go to a rule system based on the severity of injury you cause.

After watching this interview and Carmelo's body language, I have absolutely no confidence in the impartiality of this organization.


http://www.marca.com/motor/motogp/2016/01/26/56a66650ca4741c6408b459e.html

The point I was trying to make earlier was essentially that maybe a Rossi Rule is a good thing in the long run. I really think that it will be getting harder and harder for Rossi to be competitive in the next years, partly because of his age and partly because of the talent coming up behind him. Clearly there is a lot of bias towards Rossi on the corporate side of MotoGP, but a lot of people still can't see it. We can talk until we're blue in the face, quoting instances of past unfair actions or hypocritical statements or decisions, but people are still blinded by their emotions. If, in the future, Rossi is consistently competing for 4th or 5th spot while at the same time gaining favor from the management in such a blatant way, it will shine a bright light on the hypocrisy that already exists and force people who still say ".... YOU! ROSSI IS GOD!!" to calm down and say, "Well...ok, yeah. It's a little biased towards Rossi."

Then again, I think there is a chance that all this will blow over. It's essentially like the HR department of a company forcing all the employees to sit through sensitivity training just because one ....... pulled a prank that offended one other ........ Everybody knows it's b.s., but they sit through it, wait for it to go away, and things go back to exactly the way there were before.

Kropotkin said:

I have some sympathy for that argument, but I disagree. At no point did Rossi intend to cause Marquez bodily harm. He had stopped racing, and the collision was inevitable, but he did not nerf Marquez off the way Capirossi did to Harada.

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I tend to agree with you, as does Gaz who has done some stewarding/marshalling type stuff in Australia, despite not buying the Rossi version of late season 2015 events.

I have to say I don't really understand what Rossi did intend, and your "he lost his mind again" in a post on here at the time is the best take I have seen.

He certainly wasn't attempting to pass MM, and nor was MM attempting to pass him just then. If he was trying to gain an advantage by running MM wide so he could take off, it rather destroys the narrative that MM was easily faster at that particular stage of the race and was just toying with him.

I really don't think he had the absolute intention of taking MM out, and that previous rivals such as Gibernau and Stoner if not Biaggi would have avoided contact. The contact and MM going down was still absolutely down to Rossi though imo, and even apart from VR having no racing reason to slow down and change his line so drastically he badly misjudged MM if he thought he was the type to back down, regardless of whether that is for good or ill in general.

Kropotkin said:

I have some sympathy for that argument, but I disagree. At no point did Rossi intend to cause Marquez bodily harm. He had stopped racing, and the collision was inevitable, but he did not nerf Marquez off the way Capirossi did to Harada.

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povol said:

Makes zero difference if he intended to do bodily harm, you can shatter a wrist falling off a bike that is sitting still, I've seen it happen.

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Krops, welcome back and as always thanks for your input. It's an interesting argument but I don't agree and here is my counter:

Le Mans 2011 - Marco Simoncelli did not intend to cause Pedrosa bodily harm, yet he was given a ride through penalty for, and I quote, "An error in judgement"...unarguably FAR less an offence than a premeditated event to push another rider off the racing line to the degree Rossi did. Where's the consistency?

Marco Simoncelli warned over Dani Pedrosa crash - BBC Sport

I'm a relative newbie to MotoGP having only started watching ontently since 2004, but I looked up the Gibernau/Tamada incident of Motegi 2003(?), and Tamada was disqualified for, and I again quote, "Tamada's move was deemed sufficiently beyond usual forceful racing manoeuvres to warrant a disqualification on the grounds of 'dangerous riding"

Gibernau was forced off the track but didn't fall off. Marquez did fall off, as a consequence of Rossi undertaking a premeditated move that can be word for word linked to the very statement RD gave for disqualifying Tamada in 2003.

MotoGP News - Tamada upset at 'unjust' exclusion.

BTW, nice to see you and Jums sparring again!

It's a bit counterproductive to debate about whether Rossi intended for Marquez to go down for 2 reasons, as far as I see.
1) We will never know Rossi's true intentions in that very moment. We can't read minds.
2) It doesn't matter.
If I punch a guy in the ribs and one of his ribs breaks, I can say "I didn't intend for you to have a broken bone. I just wanted to prove a point." But that doesn't change the result.

Anyways, here's a question for the crowd:

What would be an acceptable rule change?

As for in-race Penalties and the justice of the timeliness of decisions...
How should we now read Pedrosa's back-of-the-grid penalty for something entirely not of his own doing?

Misano 2012? When his tyre warmer melted to his brake disc right?

Yep, it's the manslaughter vs. murder charge.

Manslaughter is a lesser charge than murder, but either way you're still doing time. It's a legal distinction more than anything about instances where someone is killed, but it was not done with malice.

You could argue Rossi committed "manslaughter" for the sake of our discussion.

Had it been "murder" the punishment should have been far greater; a black flag and full season ban.

But it wasn't "murder" but "manslaughter"...so while guilty of a lesser charge, the punishment would be reduced in nature, and should have been a black flag and a 6 month race ban.

Instead what we had was a felony charge turned into a misdemeanor.

Kropo, sorry to change the subject, but how do you avoid erectile meds and kitchen cabinet spam on your site? I mean, I guess it makes sense, after all MdubSTYLIE says he's combined the two and reported to have some mad ... in the kitchen. Me, I'm just not going to .... where I eat eggs and sausages. Can you offer Duc any advice for .... sake (no pun)?

Jumkie said:

Kropo, sorry to change the subject, but how do you avoid erectile meds and kitchen cabinet spam on your site? I mean, I guess it makes sense, after all MdubSTYLIE says he's combined the two and reported to have some mad ... in the kitchen. Me, I'm just not going to .... where I eat eggs and sausages. Can you offer Duc any advice for .... sake (no pun)?

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Having very difficult password restrictions helps, and removing them immediately helps too. Basically, you need to make poor users jump through hoops. Not fair, but effective.

MotoGP set for stewards structure revamp after Rossi/Marquez clash

So Dorna has bowed down to the yellow hoard and is removing themselves from the process because they dared punish Rossi. All it took was a few accusations and viola. Once again they have chosen the wrong side of the issue at hand.

kurre said:

It's a bit counterproductive to debate about whether Rossi intended for Marquez to go down for 2 reasons, as far as I see.
1) We will never know Rossi's true intentions in that very moment. We can't read minds.
2) It doesn't matter.
If I punch a guy in the ribs and one of his ribs breaks, I can say "I didn't intend for you to have a broken bone. I just wanted to prove a point." But that doesn't change the result.

Anyways, here's a question for the crowd:

What would be an acceptable rule change?

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No change is necessary. Just enforce the existing rules properly & equally for all riders FFS.

33 Coupe said:

No change is necessary. Just enforce the existing rules properly & equally for all riders FFS.

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agree

povol said:

MotoGP set for stewards structure revamp after Rossi/Marquez clash

So Dorna has bowed down to the yellow hoard and is removing themselves from the process because they dared punish Rossi. All it took was a few accusations and viola. Once again they have chosen the wrong side of the issue at hand.

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I don't think Dorna should be, nor should ever have been, part of the sanctioning body, and if they were I give them even more and direct blame for the 2013 PI debacle. If they were the architects of the hastily devised format of that race including the point on the track of the pit exit and entry for tyre change and the rules pertaining to the changeover made up 1 hour before the race they shouldn't be allowed to have anything to do with how races are run.

I have said before regardless of the rights and wrongs particularly of the Sepang incident ( I fear what I observed may differ from what Mr Ezpeleta believes he "knows" when he states "most of us know what happened"), the result of the sanctions imposed at PI 2013 and Sepang 2015 were that Dorna who profit from the media rights saw the championship extended to the last round, which is a conflict of interest I worry about more than any putative Spanish conspiracy, if not any other favouritism they may show.

So if Dorna isn't part of the sanctioning body, who will be in charge or handing out penalties during and after races?