Rules changes in wake of 2015 discussion

#22 said:

Misano 2012? When his tyre warmer melted to his brake disc right?

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Ja. Having mechanical assistance on the grid = doing a Rossi.
No recourse.
Reinforces my view that it Should've been a black flag

kurre said:

So if Dorna isn't part of the sanctioning body, who will be in charge or handing out penalties during and after races?

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Official Dorna Press Release
Penalties will be handed out from the back of Rossi's motor-home, depending on who he is pissed off with or threatening him at any given race weekend

kurre said:

So if Dorna isn't part of the sanctioning body, who will be in charge or handing out penalties during and after races?

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A Dorna or FIM appointed entity who will still have their best interest at heart.

kurre said:

So if Dorna isn't part of the sanctioning body, who will be in charge or handing out penalties during and after races?

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FIM I assume.

michaelm said:

I don't think Dorna should be, nor should ever have been, part of the sanctioning body, and if they were I give them even more and direct blame for the 2013 PI debacle. If they were the architects of the hastily devised format of that race including the point on the track of the pit exit and entry for tyre change and the rules pertaining to the changeover made up 1 hour before the race they shouldn't be allowed to have anything to do with how races are run.

I have said before regardless of the rights and wrongs particularly of the Sepang incident ( I fear what I observed may differ from what Mr Ezpeleta believes he "knows" when he states "most of us know what happened"), the result of the sanctions imposed at PI 2013 and Sepang 2015 were that Dorna who profit from the media rights saw the championship extended to the last round, which is a conflict of interest I worry about more than any putative Spanish conspiracy, if not any other favouritism they may show.

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I agree with everything you say here. What irks me is what it took to influence the change. A pissed off Rossi or his fans can create change in the sport and influence decision making.

Stinks of bigotry from Valentino. When Jorge was leading the championship by a mile in 2010, Valentino slammed into the side of him during the Japanese round almost running him off track and was generally aggressive throughout the race. When told by Yamaha bosses that he shouldn't be riding like this against his team mate who had a championship to win, Valentino replied "What? So am I not allowed to race? I might as well stay at home!"
Now in 2015, when he himself had a title to win, he demands that non title contenders should stay out of his way and not interfere with or race against him.
Unbelievable behaviour from the figurehead of MotoGP...

yamfan said:

Stinks of bigotry from Valentino. When Jorge was leading the championship by a mile in 2010, Valentino slammed into the side of him during the Japanese round almost running him off track and was generally aggressive throughout the race. When told by Yamaha bosses that he shouldn't be riding like this against his team mate who had a championship to win, Valentino replied "What? So am I not allowed to race? I might as well stay at home!"
Now in 2015, when he himself had a title to win, he demands that non title contenders should stay out of his way and not interfere with or race against him.
Unbelievable behaviour from the figurehead of MotoGP...

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I saw the original of one of his more recent attacks on MM in the English version of the Spanish magazine linked to earlier in the thread.

Childish and petulant were the words that sprang to mind. I do wonder now about his legacy, although he obviously will still have the fantastic record of success. In 15 years time I think this behaviour will be remembered by real and continuing fans of the sport, while a significant portion of his current fans will be following "I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here" (hell he might be on it) rather than gp bike racing.

At thr end of the day, fanatics will always just use numbers to justify their hero. How many times, post Sepang, did we hear newly joined boppers using the number of titles or wins Rossi had to belittle his opponents? It doesn't mean much to me when you measure it against the quality of the opposition at the time.

Michael Schumacher won 7 titles (6 imo, 1994 went to Damon Hill), and his rampant supporters always bring that number up compared to other greats such as Fangio (5), Prost (4), Senna (3) and Clark (2). However, 5 of Schumachers titles were a straight run from 2000-2004 and when Ferrari undoubtedly had a serious advantage over their rivals. Also, if you look at the number of World Champions he competed against (0 in 1995, 2 in 2000, one in a crap car, 2 in 2001, both in inferior cars and then from 2002-2004 there were no other drivers of decent calibre in cars that could consistently challenge the Ferrari team, hell even his team mate wasn't allowed to race him).

When you look at Rossi from 2001-2007 when he was most dominant, he never had consistent top level challengers. He had Biaggi on an inferior Yamaha and Gibernau on a Satellite Honda, the Biaggi faded when he moved to a works Honda and Hayden beat him in 2006. But from 2007 onwards, when we began to get riders of huge caliber on TOP bikes, he was swamped. Stoner beat him in 2007, then when the Ducati began to hold him back you had Lorenzo giving him a hard time and ultimately beating him, then Stoner came back on form, then Marquez arrived.

Rossi did well to win the title in 09, And in my opinion that title was harder earned than all his previous combined, because a title win these days against a Stoner, a Lorenzo, A Marquez or even a Pedrosa, is worth more than with the pedigree of the field 10-15 years ago.

michaelm said:

( I fear what I observed may differ from what Mr Ezpeleta believes he "knows" when he states "most of us know what happened").

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In the link I posted is the video of the interview in Spanish. To which I responded after watching, 'I have no faith in Dorna', which in reality means Carmelo. It was his body language when he says the quote you point out that disgusted me. My take is that Carmelo was insinuating Marquez had ...... with Rossi and therefore was the source of this debacle (no not Rossi) yet while rubbishing the lad's integrity Carmelo didn't have the balls to spell it out (hence the cryptic quote). I'm convinced he believes what Rossi does about "what happened" at Sepang. Carmelo then say he does NOT believe the "Spanish riders" had a "conspiracy" between them, HOWEVER, his motive for saying this is revealed when he defends himself by saying he didn't expect to be accused of being part of this "Spanish conspiracy". In other words, he is fine with Marquez being scapegoated, but once he realized going along with the "Spanish conspiracy" bit includes HIM (Carmelo)...well then big changes must be made to insulate himself from such 'baseless accusations'. Of course Marquez apparently deserves no such protection.

One thing I've learned from watching and listening to Carmelo over the years is that despite being a brilliant business man who has increased the popularity of the sport through giving the people what they want, his personal beliefs and machinations are often leaked out.

"I am calm".

#22 said:

At thr end of the day, fanatics will always just use numbers to justify their hero. How many times, post Sepang, did we hear newly joined boppers using the number of titles or wins Rossi had to belittle his opponents? It doesn't mean much to me when you measure it against the quality of the opposition at the time.

Michael Schumacher won 7 titles (6 imo, 1994 went to Damon Hill), and his rampant supporters always bring that number up compared to other greats such as Fangio (5), Prost (4), Senna (3) and Clark (2). However, 5 of Schumachers titles were a straight run from 2000-2004 and when Ferrari undoubtedly had a serious advantage over their rivals. Also, if you look at the number of World Champions he competed against (0 in 1995, 2 in 2000, one in a crap car, 2 in 2001, both in inferior cars and then from 2002-2004 there were no other drivers of decent calibre in cars that could consistently challenge the Ferrari team, hell even his team mate wasn't allowed to race him).

When you look at Rossi from 2001-2007 when he was most dominant, he never had consistent top level challengers. He had Biaggi on an inferior Yamaha and Gibernau on a Satellite Honda, the Biaggi faded when he moved to a works Honda and Hayden beat him in 2006. But from 2007 onwards, when we began to get riders of huge caliber on TOP bikes, he was swamped. Stoner beat him in 2007, then when the Ducati began to hold him back you had Lorenzo giving him a hard time and ultimately beating him, then Stoner came back on form, then Marquez arrived.

Rossi did well to win the title in 09, And in my opinion that title was harder earned than all his previous combined, because a title win these days against a Stoner, a Lorenzo, A Marquez or even a Pedrosa, is worth more than with the pedigree of the field 10-15 years ago.

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Not forgetting Schueys dodgy Benetton in 1994

Jumkie said:

In the link I posted is the video of the interview in Spanish. To which I responded after watching, 'I have no faith in Dorna', which in reality means Carmelo. It was his body language when he says the quote you point out that disgusted me. My take is that Carmelo was insinuating Marquez had ...... with Rossi and therefore was the source of this debacle (no not Rossi) yet while rubbishing the lad's integrity Carmelo didn't have the balls to spell it out (hence the cryptic quote). I'm convinced he believes what Rossi does about "what happened" at Sepang. Carmelo then say he does NOT believe the "Spanish riders" had a "conspiracy" between them, HOWEVER, his motive for saying this is revealed when he defends himself by saying he didn't expect to be accused of being part of this "Spanish conspiracy". In other words, he is fine with Marquez being scapegoated, but once he realized going along with the "Spanish conspiracy" bit includes HIM (Carmelo)...well then big changes must be made to insulate himself from such 'baseless accusations'. Of course Marquez apparently deserves no such protection.

One thing I've learned from watching and listening to Carmelo over the years is that despite being a brilliant business man who has increased the popularity of the sport through giving the people what they want, his personal beliefs and machinations are often leaked out.

"I am calm".

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Yes... If it wasn't for those ....... aqueducts...

michaelm said:

I don't think Dorna should be, nor should ever have been, part of the sanctioning body, and if they were I give them even more and direct blame for the 2013 PI debacle. If they were the architects of the hastily devised format of that race including the point on the track of the pit exit and entry for tyre change and the rules pertaining to the changeover made up 1 hour before the race they shouldn't be allowed to have anything to do with how races are run.

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Hmm, ok.
Isn't it a bit hyperbolic to leap from being "part of the sanctioning body" to "the architects"?

AntG said:

Not forgetting Schueys dodgy Benetton in 1994

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Forget dodgy, it was flatout illegal.

"Oh hey we just reused last year's program and tucked away the launch control and traction control settings so it wouldn't get turned on accidentally. Scout's honor, cross my fingers and hope to die, stick a needle in my eye."

povol said:

MotoGP set for stewards structure revamp after Rossi/Marquez clash

So Dorna has bowed down to the yellow hoard and is removing themselves from the process because they dared punish Rossi. All it took was a few accusations and viola. Once again they have chosen the wrong side of the issue at hand.

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Only member of Dorna in Race Direction is Javier Alonso. He is there as Dorna's representative. The others are employed by Dorna (apart from the FIM rep Franco Uncini), but are independent. The fact that Rossi got a penalty should be proof enough of that. The other proof being that half of the world think Rossi should have been Mussolinied for his crimes, the other half believing that Marquez should have been burned at the stake.

That would cut RD back to 3 people, plus assistant staff. They really need another person in there to help with the decision making.

Kropo, that Rossi got a penalty should be "proof" of what? That the men employed by Dorna are independent?

Jumkie said:

Kropo, that Rossi got a penalty should be "proof" of what? That the men employed by Dorna are independent?

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Yes.

But as you are part of BURN THE WITCH!!!!! BURN HIM!!!!! party, I know that you will not agree with that.

Kropotkin said:

Yes.

But as you are part of BURN THE WITCH!!!!! BURN HIM!!!!! party, I know that you will not agree with that.

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I have not heard anyone ask for any extreme action be taken against Rossi. The most harsh was a black flag and suspension, while 99.9 % have asked for nothing more than a black flag instead of the non penalty penalty he received. There should be no way a rider be allowed to keep points earned from crashing another rider.,It sends a very dangerous message.

I said this at the time and I stick by it, but both should have been parked for the final race as it's high time both were taught a lesson.

Kropotkin said:

Only member of Dorna in Race Direction is Javier Alonso. He is there as Dorna's representative. The others are employed by Dorna (apart from the FIM rep Franco Uncini), but are independent. The fact that Rossi got a penalty should be proof enough of that. The other proof being that half of the world think Rossi should have been Mussolinied for his crimes, the other half believing that Marquez should have been burned at the stake.

That would cut RD back to 3 people, plus assistant staff. They really need another person in there to help with the decision making.

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If they are employed by Dorna, they cannot be considered independent. They are given money by Dorna, that alone is enough to compromise any independence.

That Rossi got a penalty is not proof enough. If anything, they had no choice but to issue some kind of penalty, because no such penalty has such a far reaching implication, that it could cause dangerous riding to become the norm. Rossi actually backed them into a corner with what he did at Sepang.

You can do nothing, but send the message to future generations that if you believe someone is ....... with you on track, you can run them wide, or even punt them. All you have to do is say, "Well, I believed he was trying to ruin my race, so I had to put a stop to it."

They took the least amount of action they could take by 1) refusing to do anything in the middle of the race and 2) issuing a penalty in which the result still allowed VR to line up on the grid at Valencia.

Rossi did more in a 1 week span to bring the entire sport into disrepute by digging his heels in, and setting the foundation for the Sepang clash.

In your recent op/ed article, you mentioned the following:

What the data shows, I was told by someone who had seen it, is a massive spike in brake pressure on Márquez' front brake.

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You also went on to mention it doesn't speak to intent, or to whether a kick actually happened. I agree with both points. You also mention the theory of MM pulling the brake himself, which is insane.

Where I differ now is in this: Regardless of intent, or whether there was a kick, the 'massive spike in brake pressure' is a direct result of one man, Valentino Rossi deciding to take the choice to run Marc Marquez wide heading towards turn 14 at Sepang. If Rossi chooses to continue racing, there is no incident in which a 'massive spike in brake pressure" occurs. What his intent was, or whether he kicked or not is irrelevant at this point. He chose to set off a chain of events by deciding to run MM wide, where contact was made, a 'massive spike in brake pressure' on MM's front brake was applied, and then MM found himself crashing at around 40MPH.

VR engaged in blatantly dangerous riding by way of his actions. This was not two guys making some contact while fighting for position, and they continue on down the track.

It was black flag worthy based on previous decisions made in MotoGP at all levels. It warranted an immediate disqualification from the race, as well as a ban from Valencia. I actually think in light of everything, he should have been given a 6 month ban because of the nature of the event. But they would never have gone that far. Yes he didn't win the title, but he had no business being allowed on the grid at Valencia because the toxic atmosphere post-Phillip Island was all of his own creation.

If Rossi was smart enough, ne could have won the title easily. In Sepang, we learnt that you can deliberately push another rider out of the way, resulting in contact which caused him to fall. We learnt that the sanction for this is 3 penalty points being awarded, while retaining all the championship points "earned". Finally, we also learnt that 80% of fans, 95% of the media & 100% of the sanctioning body find this behaviour acceptable.

All Rossi had to do was dawdle around until Lorenzo came to lap him, engage him in a battle (he is allowed to as he is in the title hunt, even though he is a lap down), push him wide or off the track, causing him to crash. Lorenzo gets no points, Rossi already had the title lead, but can still keep any additional points earned. The end result is Rossi wins the title, the majority of fans, media & Dorna are happy and all Rossi has to do is wear an additional 3 penalty points & start from pit lane at Qatar. Easy.

The precedence for this action had only been set in the previous race at Sepang, so Rossi had a perfect chance to win a 10th title, I'm surprised Carmelo didn't raise this up during there "motor home" discussion.