Round 3: Red Bull Grand Prix of The Americas 2017

JPSLotus · Apr 25, 2017

payne by name said:
With that in mind (and I appreciate that they couldn't have matched his salary demands) do you think Lorenzo would have faired better at Tech 3 Yamaha rather than Ducati?

Lorenzo would have made out better at Tech 3 in 2017 at the bare minimum. But keep in mind there is still what? 15 races to go? Fortunes could change for Lorenzo.

The real question is going to be 2018 and what the GP18 has to offer him.

Arrabbiata1 · Apr 25, 2017

JPSLotus said:
The M1 is such a magnificent bike to watch...the difference in stability to the RC213V is stunning. Through the kink heading to turn 11 at COTA, the bumps were quite brutal and unseating and unsettling many riders. As the M1 passed through there, while the chassis was being upset, what was fascinating to see was how well the suspension was dampening the bumps relative to the other bikes. The same thing also was happening through turn 18 which had some nasty bumps near the corner exit. The bumps cause the M1 to move, but the M1 was nowhere near as upset as the RCV was through the same corner. No real surprise that the M1 was so strong in that 4th sector...when you get that kind of damping and stability through unstable parts of the track, it's far easier to keep the throttle pinned and to have your tires maintaining a larger contact patch than everyone else out there. How the M1 handled COTA was eye-opening to me, and while Marc did win the race, the RCV going through those corners was what I could only term as "...-puckering". There were a couple of moments during the race where you could see the front end of the RCV was completely unsettled and moving around so much, that I thought Marc was riding my farm tractor of a street bike where such things are to be expected out of a front suspension.

Everyone expects Maverick to do well as he has looked perfectly at home on the M1 for the most part. No one is entirely sure what to expect out of Marquez each race on the RCV because of how difficult and unstable the bike is. You have to ride on the knife's edge to extract performance out of the RCV. You don't have to do that with the M1.

JPSLotus said:
Point still remains, the bike has such a major advantage over the RC213V, and the only reason people don't see it is because of what MM can do on a motorcycle. Crutchlow had to work to get past Zarco's Tech 3 M1 and Pedrosa was simply done in by his tire selection...Marc on the other hand managed that race perfectly since when his tire performance finally fell off a cliff, he had opened up a large enough gap so as to render that change irrelevant.

Agree, I’ve been saying so since 2015 – (arguably true for 2014 too). I posted in the Silverstone thread of that year, that sat in the stands above Vale, which is one of the bumpier sections of the circuit, that you could see how unsettled the RCV was under braking compared to the M1. At COTA, the Honda was similarly throwing ugly shapes. This may well have been Marc’s chosen style in his first three seasons, but on the current bike it’s not necessarily the quickest way around a circuit any more. Did you notice how smooth the bike looked during qualifying and morning warm up in comparison to FP1, FP2 and to the early laps in FP3? – far more settled and planted, in fact it didn’t even look like Márquez riding it because it almost looked slower. He has had to adapt and although this hasn’t significantly compromised his corner entry he’s certainly worked on mid corner speed. Ironic that Lorenzo is now forced to do the reverse.

During Sunday morning warm up the RCV wasn’t pumping so much but in comparison to the M1 (which absorbed the bumps beautifully) it still looked a handful. Credit though to Márquez and his team for making progress. COTA may flatter to deceive for HRC, but it certainly didn’t mask the difficulties that the Honda riders were encountering in comparison to the Yams. In view of the change in tyre provision and electronics, the consummate progress that Yamaha have made in delivering such a useable and amenable machine – adaptable to most circuits on the calendar – has been commendable. Props to all four riders too for maximising this. I remember the inaugural race at COTA was regarded as a disaster for Yamaha, but interestingly Crutchlow was saying even back then, how sweet the M1 was to ride around the circuit.

JPSLotus · Apr 25, 2017

Arrabbiata1 said:
Agree, I’ve been saying so since 2015 – (arguably true for 2014 too). I posted in the Silverstone thread of that year, that sat in the stands above Vale, which is one of the bumpier sections of the circuit, that you could see how unsettled the RCV was under braking compared to the M1. At COTA, the Honda was similarly throwing ugly shapes. This may well have been Marc’s chosen style in his first three seasons, but on the current bike it’s not necessarily the quickest way around a circuit any more. Did you notice how smooth the bike looked during qualifying and morning warm up in comparison to FP1, FP2 and to the early laps in FP3? – far more settled and planted, in fact it didn’t even look like Márquez riding it because it almost looked slower. He has had to adapt and although this hasn’t significantly compromised his corner entry he’s certainly worked on mid corner speed. Ironic that Lorenzo is now forced to do the reverse.

During Sunday morning warm up the RCV wasn’t pumping so much but in comparison to the M1 (which absorbed the bumps beautifully) it still looked a handful. Credit though to Márquez and his team for making progress. COTA may flatter to deceive for HRC, but it certainly didn’t mask the difficulties that the Honda riders were encountering in comparison to the Yams. In view of the change in tyre provision and electronics, the consummate progress that Yamaha have made in delivering such a useable and amenable machine – adaptable to most circuits on the calendar – has been commendable. Props to all four riders too for maximising this. I remember the inaugural race at COTA was regarded as a disaster for Yamaha, but interestingly Crutchlow was saying even back then, how sweet the M1 was to ride around the circuit.

What really makes what Marquez's performances even more impressive --to me anyway-- is he is still using that 2014 chassis. Do you know if any rider in the past has gotten away with using a several year old chassis and being highly competitive in spite of what would seem like a massive disadvantage?

The smoothness you reference in the morning warm-ups was interesting...even though he was fastest, I did not think he was on as hot of a lap as the time sheets indicated because the bike was less out of sorts. His performance in the United States since 2013 has been absolutely dominant. Makes me miss having either Indy or Laguna on the calendar because Marc simply excels in America in spite of whatever issues the machinery poses.

I still find the RCV's corner entry to be...tough to watch in the sense that when you see Marc trail braking into the corner, the front moves around far too much for comfort. The M1 exhibits none of that instability on corner entry and just cuts right through the corner. Watching the two machines exit the final corner was notable again for how much speed the M1 carried. At some point I'm expecting Yamaha to break through at COTA and this looked to be year by all early indicators. HRC's progress is really going to determine how much of a stranglehold they maintain on COTA in spite of all the machine's woes. If the circuit lap wasn't as long as it is, I believe Yamaha would already have won a race here...the circuit is long enough to allow for the Honda strengths to show. I'm already intrigued by the possibilities for the 2018 race if COTA doesn't get any sort of resurfacing done. The bumps are going to even worse next April after F1 gets done with the circuit later this year.

Iamapony · Apr 25, 2017

birdman said:
........
The obvious, lose the position gained via shortcuting the corner. Can you determine anyway Rossi would have come out in front of Zarco if he'd have conceded the corner, or ride around the outside? No way.

Put it this way, what did Zarco do wrong? Nothing, Rossi made one, then a second riding error. Wide in corner 1, then cutting a entire section. Zarco was alongside enough to prevent Rossi getting the track he wanted. I don't care if it's 20cm or 2mm, he established track position, he had physical presence to block Rossi taking the line, he didn't run wide or wobble or look out of control at all. He deserved the reward of the move........

This is just nuts for racing. You want the guy behind to get a pass WiTHOUT making a pass. With your concept, everyone would just Kamikaze the corner like Rossi did to Stoner, knock into the rider and claim the position without making a pass. You just gave Rossi 256 race positions and Iannone 224. It makes no sense, and it would be impossible to regulate. Zarco was never in front, and Rossi had his normal line.

I hate to quote myself, but since I posted it earlier, I see no reason to type it again.

Iamapony said:
How was he penalized? If you believe that Rossi should have lost a position, they could have done that. Let's say Rossi is ordered to let Zarco pass. Rossi beat Zarco by almost 8 seconds. You don't think Rossi would just pass him, again? Rossi passed Pedrosa who beat Zarco. Hell, Crutchlow passed Zarco. I don't see how Zarco was penalized.

Mick D said:
The golden rule of racing in any class is the guy in front has right of way. If you can DEFINITIVELY get a wheel in front things change. In this case Rossi had right of way. 0.3 sec penalty was a good decision overall.

Indeed.

JohnnyKnockdown · Apr 25, 2017

It seems the meetup thread is dead. I miss hearing the stories of members adventures after a GP.
Now everyone stays quiet because one ...., and twenty two or so of their .... friends decided to weaponize other members personal information, and threaten them with it.
What a shame. It was one of the best parts of this forum

Motokitty · Apr 25, 2017

Yeah where are the pics, man?

JPSLotus · Apr 25, 2017

Motokitty said:
Yeah where are the pics, man?

Where are your pics Kitty?

Little Walter · Apr 25, 2017

JohnnyKnockdown said:
It seems the meetup thread is dead. I miss hearing the stories of members adventures after a GP.
Now everyone stays quiet because one ...., and twenty two or so of their .... friends decided to weaponize other members personal information, and threaten them with it.
What a shame. It was one of the best parts of this forum

.

MdubSTYLIE · Apr 25, 2017

Jumkie I believe went to bed for the first time yesterday afternoon. I don't think he is up yet.

MdubSTYLIE · Apr 25, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Where are your pics Kitty?

Kitty pics? I got kitty pics, but they will cost you. I'll give them to you for two shark darth vader replicas and a pair of Cal Crutchlow leathers with no skids marks inside or out.

Motokitty · Apr 25, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Where are your pics Kitty?

I didn't make it to Austin this year. I posted ones from last year though.
Wait till Motegi in October. Domo Arigato!

birdman · Apr 25, 2017

Iamapony said:
This is just nuts for racing. You want the guy behind to get a pass WiTHOUT making a pass. With your concept, everyone would just Kamikaze the corner like Rossi did to Stoner, knock into the rider and claim the position without making a pass. You just gave Rossi 256 race positions and Iannone 224. It makes no sense, and it would be impossible to regulate. Zarco was never in front, and Rossi had his normal line.

I hate to quote myself, but since I posted it earlier, I see no reason to type it again.

Indeed.

Not at all. I would prefer to see wheel to wheel racing wherever possible, and for riders not to take the 'chickenshit' option of escape roads when they are in an inferior position on track. I would have preferred to see Rossi take back the position on the next section and continue the battle with Zarco.

Again, Zarco had the track position. Rossi wants the same piece of tarmac? Its not available.

Like I said, at the time I simply thought racing incident. Then Rossi made the threat of going to the safety commission to 'report' Zarco. To which I took another look at it.

Are you telling me Zarco should have conceded from this position on track? You think Rossi had right of way. I think not. Rossi attempted the sweeping outside line. The part of track he wants is simply not available, similar to Simoncelli attempting to ride around the outside of Pedrosa for which he was penalized.

JohnnyKnockdown · Apr 25, 2017

Little Walter said:
.

Worthless Walter knows nothing about what Im talking about, yet decides to troll it.

JohnnyKnockdown · Apr 25, 2017

MdubSTYLIE said:
Kitty pics? I got kitty pics, but they will cost you. I'll give them to you for two shark darth vader replicas and a pair of Cal Crutchlow leathers with no skids marks inside or out.

You can get those Space Balls helmet fm Shovel, but I assure you those leathers do not exist.

MdubSTYLIE · Apr 25, 2017

JohnnyKnockdown said:
You can get those Space Balls helmet fm Shovel, but I assure you those leathers do not exist.

He told me if I reach around far enough I may just get one.

MdubSTYLIE · Apr 25, 2017

Motokitty said:
I didn't make it to Austin this year. I posted ones from last year though.
Wait till Motegi in October. Domo Arigato!

More pics or I post pics!!!!

michaelm · Apr 25, 2017

JKant said:
You quoted my post not the other way round.

To recap - my posts said that allowing Rossi to retain his position despite cutting the track was justified under the rules - the application of which had also allowed Marquez to retain his position at Silverstone last year (where he would have otherwise had to drop two places).

This was in reply to someone else's post arguing that it gave an unfair positional advantage to Rossi - my point in turn was being forced out or nearly forced out wasn't anywhere near as unfair as permitting Marquez's entired unforced error - where he went in too hot into a corner.. and then just kept going. RD cannot penalize the former while permitted the latter (and I don't recall quite as much debate over the legality of that one).

So.. that's what on earth I was going on about it.

Again, I am not sure what you are arguing.

RD have made 3 very specific rulings on incidents where riders maintained position in an overtaking duel by going off track which indicate this is not permissible in general but only when there are extenuating circumstances, ie at Laguna Seca 2013 both riders went off track, at Assen 2015 Rossi negotiating the corner normally on a racing line was forced off the track by MM not on a racing line, and similarly with Rossi in this most recent incident. No-one is disputing that the ruling is incorrect if he was forced off track, some are disputing whether he was really forced off the track.

What I am questioning is what the MM incident to which you refer has to do with the above, given no-one is disputing the ruling is incorrect in the recent incident if Rossi was forced off the track. If you want to talk logical fallacies and call "straw man" on me as you did recently, I could easily call "red herring"on this one.

moto vudu · Apr 25, 2017

birdman said:
Not at all. I would prefer to see wheel to wheel racing wherever possible, and for riders not to take the 'chickenshit' option of escape roads when they are in an inferior position on track. I would have preferred to see Rossi take back the position on the next section and continue the battle with Zarco.

View attachment 12471

Again, Zarco had the track position. Rossi wants the same piece of tarmac? Its not available.

Like I said, at the time I simply thought racing incident. Then Rossi made the threat of going to the safety commission to 'report' Zarco. To which I took another look at it.

View attachment 12472

Are you telling me Zarco should have conceded from this position on track? You think Rossi had right of way. I think not. Rossi attempted the sweeping outside line. The part of track he wants is simply not available, similar to Simoncelli attempting to ride around the outside of Pedrosa for which he was penalized.

Zarco didn't get in front of Rossi prior to the apex so yes, he should've conceded his position since Rossi still had the line. Still pictures do not show that Zarco was late in getting to that position. Your anti-Rossi bias doesn't allow you to look at the incident objectively. Switch the riders around in your head... can Rossi take the line from Zarco simply by putting himself on a collision course with Zarco at the apex of a corner? Riders "stand up" other riders all the time, but it's usually done BEFORE the corner apex, not AT the apex. Any rider that aims to overtake at the apex is a bad accident waiting to happen. For the record, I don't think it was Zarco's intention to overtake so late, he simply committed to the overtake at that corner when he saw that Rossi had lost momentum, but he didn't adjust when he realized he wasn't going to get in front of Rossi in time. Racers will be racers.

It was a racing incident and I agree there isn't really a need for Rossi to complain to RD, but overall it's a small matter that you're dragging on because you haven't found anything better to discuss and you hate Rossi's guts. If the incident was between Zarco and Crutchlow, you wouldn't be spending so much time debating it.

michaelm · Apr 25, 2017

moto vudu said:
Zarco didn't get in front of Rossi prior to the apex so yes, he should've conceded his position since Rossi still had the line. Still pictures do not show that Zarco was late in getting to that position. Your anti-Rossi bias doesn't allow you to look at the incident objectively. Switch the riders around in your head... can Rossi take the line from Zarco simply by putting himself on a collision course with Zarco at the apex of a corner? Riders "stand up" other riders all the time, but it's usually done BEFORE the corner apex, not AT the apex. Any rider that aims to overtake at the apex is a bad accident waiting to happen. For the record, I don't think it was Zarco's intention to overtake so late, he simply committed to the overtake at that corner when he saw that Rossi had lost momentum, but he didn't' adjust when he realized he wasn't going to get in front of Rossi in time. Racers will be racers.

It was a racing incident and I agree there isn't really a need for Rossi to complain to RD, but overall it's a small matter that you're dragging on because you haven't found anything better to discuss and you hate Rossi's guts. If the incident was between Zarco and Crutchlow, you wouldn't be spending so much time debating it.

So how does your argument fit with the Jerez 2005 last corner "pass", one of the incidents which formed my attitude to Rossi (I had absolutely no animus against him at that time), and possibly Birdman's as well.

moto vudu · Apr 25, 2017

michaelm said:
So how does your argument fit with the Jerez 2005 last corner "pass", one of the incidents which formed my attitude to Rossi (I had absolutely no animus against him at that time), and possibly Birdman's as well.

Just looked at the Jerez '05 overtake again and yes, Rossi was late with that pass attempt because he met Gibernau at the apex. However, that's a last lap, final corner incident so that's a situation to take more risk. You're also talking about something that happened 12 years ago, it's not very relevant to me anymore. I don't want the things I did just 12 days ago brought back to the light.

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