Joined Oct 2011
307 Posts | 47+
Up ..... Creek
Round 12 Silverstone: Practice, Qualifying, Race
- Thread starter Arrabbiata1
- Start date
I disagree. Not everything is a physical impossibility to take over the limit. I regularly .......... to .... chicks that far exceed my physical appearance
Another gem fm Krop. I guess he failed to notice that all the other bikes that crossed the finish line didn't have any rain testing either. That bike has not finished outside of the top five all year If it's a piece of .... then what does that make every other bike that finishes behind it. Massive piles of ....? How was it that so many massive piles of .... were able to stay up while the piece of .... couldn't?
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
The other bikes are not crap, their riders are just happy to cruise around, fulfilling their contractual duties, riding within the limits. They just dont appreciate the virtues of riding beyond the limits of their machines. Ignorant heartless .......s.
As I said earlier in the thread, I don't think it is either/or.
I think it is simultaneously possible both that the Honda engineers have come up with a bike that is hard for MM (and everyone else) to ride, and that MM is a hot-headed rider who is on occasion careless of consequences for both himself and others, and has had some luck on such occasions in the past.
As I also said, MM is very much the lead rider for HRC in his 3rd year with them, and as such his situation differs from Nicky Hayden's situation when he was at HRC; he should be in a position to influence Honda development as Doohan and Rossi did, and bears some responsibility for any problems the bike may be presenting him with. Valentino clearly (it would appear with good cause) didn't like HRC's attitude, but I don't think there was much problem with the bikes during his tenure once he asserted himself which was in his rookie year.
MM also has the crew he insisted on which is basically his crew from his 125 and moto 2 days; they also imo have questionable judgement as evidenced by both the Willairot incident and his disqualification at PI 2013, for which they (also imo) bear significant responsibility, although at PI 2013 they compounded what originated as a Dorna snafu in response to a Bridgestone problem. Again his choice, his problem.
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Joined May 2009
6K Posts | 4K+
Shovel's Club
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Mike, Marquez almost put in a sub two minute lap at Silverstone. Pedrosa had similar pace. Does that sound like a hard bike to ride? Marc was on VR's ... at Silverstone, and incidentally on Lorenzo's at Indy, looking comfortable until it was time to pass at will for the win, Pedro was competing with VR at Indy for the podium, and missed the podium at Silverstone because of the anomaly that is Ducati in the rain. Does this sound like a hard bike to ride? Crutchlow was on pace for a podium at Silverstone until he got taken out by his teammate. Crutchlow had a crap start at Indy but was showing a strong pace for 4th-5th had it not been for that awful start. Does this sound like a hard bike to ride?
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Straight outta Dorna
Crazy ............ named Marquiz,
From the gang called ....... With a Death Wish
When he hauls off,
Stoner mouths off
Squeeze the brake lever, and his body just falls off
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Ain't no tellin when I'm down for a jack miller move
Here's a murderMac rap to keep yo dancin
with a crash record like Cuntslow Manson
RC-213V is the tool
Don't make me act the motherfuckin fool
Me you can go toe to toe, no maybe
I'm knockin ...... out tha track, daily
yo weekly, monthly and yearly
until them dumb motherfuckers see gravel clearly
that I'm down with the capital HRC
Boy you can't .... with me...
Straight outta Kropotalkin
Here's a murderMac rap to keep yo dancin
with a crash record like Cuntslow Manson
RC-213V is the tool
Don't make me act the motherfuckin fool
Me you can go toe to toe, no maybe
I'm knockin ...... out tha track, daily
yo weekly, monthly and yearly
until them dumb motherfuckers see gravel clearly
that I'm down with the capital HRC
Boy you can't .... with me...
Straight outta Kropotalkin
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Only my opinion, but I think the post 990 4-stroke Hondas whilst mostly potentially very fast or even dominant have always been a little hard to ride, and less well balanced than the Yamahas, and other riders have been crashing the bike this year. I agree though that the Yamahas while relatively better this year than they have been don't necessarily have any major advantage though; the guys riding them are fairly good and have been riding rather well.
I did watch the whole race and always thought Rossi had MM's measure however, so I didn't see the point in what MM was doing as the race went on; sure 5 points more on him for Valentino would significantly damage his cause but not as much as 25 more. At least MM didn't alter the championship outcome by taking out Valentino as well which I thought was in prospect; I am now a Jorge partisan now but don't want him to win the championship that way.
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Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Mike, on what comparative basis do you believe the Hondas "have always been a little hard to ride"? Relative to the Ducati? Surely not. Lets examine other factories. "Other riders" have crashed the M1 plenty: P.Espargaro, Crutchlow, Smith (last year), hell Jorge broke his collar bone...twice on his M1, Valentino destroyed his leg. Have you read that it consumes more energy to ride like Lorenzo, super smooth, than it does like Marc, lose goose? Why aren't we saying the M1 is hard to ride for a win given the RCV was twice the title holder over the M1's in the championship category the last two years. Someone said here that the M1 riders have to basically run qualifying laps every lap just to keep up with the Honda riders. And who are these "other riders" that have crashed the RCV regularly that you speak of, where you can find some corrolation to assertain that the RCV is "hard to ride"? Please don't tell me Cal Crutchlow, he has wrecked the M1, GP14, and the RCV with such stunning regularity that the only reasonable deduction is that HE crashes on two-wheel machines. Alvaro Bautista perhaps, as Kropo used him to deduce the "decline of the RCV"? Look up Bautista's crash record the last time he was a factory rider, I think you will find over 5 DNFs when he was at Suzuki. ...., Alvaro not only mangled his leg to start the season, he bowling balled half the field at the end of one too. Is this RCV harder to ride than the GSVR based on those who have crashed on the respective machines? Not to mention the new GSXRR has seen plenty of gravel time. So which factory bike is less hard to ride than the RCV? Looks to me like the factory RCV might be easier to ride if anything, as their riders can (if they so chose, though often they ignore, the advantages and limitations of the machine) ride to victory.
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Joined Oct 2008
6K Posts | 5K+
In Cider
In an attempt to show reason. I think Kesh was recycling the statement I made on here some time ago that Honda are extremely 'scientific' in their approach to development meaning that they will develop engines/chassis/electronics in a closed laboratory or similar to what the numbers tell them is best. I stated that I think the issue this year is that Honda were overconfident in their electronic abilities, built an animal of an engine and then believed they could tame it down to be rideable through the electronics. They happily agreed to sealed engines until they realised they'd ...... up and now have to live with what they brought on themselves.
It's a bit like 'theoretical lap times'. I know even at my level of racing the data loggers would generate an "optimum' lap time, i.e. a laptime which could be achieved if you added up all the corner/sector bests. however in the real world we all know if you set up a vehicle to work well in one sector, you lose out in another so the optimum laptime can never be reached.
This is Honda's issue, they developed a supreme bike by the numbers but neglected to consider the human interface imo.
I agree Jums, it's a lack of maturity, not virtue. While the 'Win it or Bin it' attitude may be fun to begin with, all the great champions learn to kerb that attitude and take points while they can, it also prolongs their careers or lives. Look at Lorenzo in 08/09 compared to 2010.
Well in his defence, Sunday was one of the few that wasn't deserved
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
Crab Key
The 'problem' with the RCV was supposedly insufficient crankshaft inertia.
This was the trope.
How does a minor frame tweak suddenly fix this?
Time to contrast Rossi's Ducati woes and the millions of words splurged on that bikes' problems with the almost complete lack of analysis of Honda's <cough> shitbox???
This was the trope.
How does a minor frame tweak suddenly fix this?
Time to contrast Rossi's Ducati woes and the millions of words splurged on that bikes' problems with the almost complete lack of analysis of Honda's <cough> shitbox???
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Sorry I'm late compa...lowered my core temperature by several degrees below sensible risking the onset of hypothermia to watch MacKenzie win the Pro-Am RD250LC race...very entertaining. That, and I've been downing 'Irish car bombs' with some geezer that showed up called Tyler Durdern who insisted on a tour of the Northamptonshire hostelries and Pikey sites of note. Also risking my current employment typing this during work time, but have intermittently lost the 'a' 's' and 'd' keys on my macbook resulting in paragraphs of utter incomprehensible drivel. Talking of which, I will endeavour to address your posts comps, I can appreciate that your near obsessional hatred for Marquez has kept you quite busy this weekend. I will try to wrest control of some of the other devices in the house to reply to your points in more detail and fend off your inevitable assaults - because the phone's as good as dead too.
No spoilers intended, but if this weekend was a commercial trainwreck for HJC, what a magnificent endorsement for Dunlop - even if they did inadvertently deposit more hectares of Malaysian latex plantation on the track surface in the space of an hour than a lifetime of Barry's gimp mask collection. Ten years ago, probably less in fact, given that level of abuse, Tito's rear would have chunked (apologies, if that sounds questionable).
In respect of Moto GP race, as has already been said, Lorenzo had this one wrapped up before the rain came. Particularly since Marquez was forced into running the soft rear which wasn't his preference. Realistically, Vale lacked the pace in the dry, and like Brno, I couldn't see anyone going with them - which has to be a worry for Rossi. Thank .... Mike Webb intervened and reassembled the grid. Not simply for Brad's sake, that would have been messier than Sachsenring 2014. I can't help feeling that Butler would have just let that one run. Although I felt cheated by the weather I nonetheless felt privileged to see another masterclass in the wet from Vale having witnessed Donington '05. Fortunately the rain only increased in intensity towards the end of the race because in my opinion, Silverstone is a far tricker proposition in the wet.
OK, then, regarding the great Honda vs Yam debate, apologies for the repetition folks, but one or two things to clarify comps, because you have largely discarded points previously made on other threads or on occasions [intentionally?] distorted my argument. I agree with Kesh that the straw man is often your greatest ally and partner in crime...(well next to 'stupid vanity' (Sorry Johnboy...way too easy)
Firstly, I am not particularly a fan of Marquez nor do I condone the often flagrant disregard that he has shown over the years for his fellow riders on track in addition to the timely abolition of the rookie rule. Although in honesty I have always found his high risk strategy entertaining, I have attributed his errant behaviour on track more to his wild style than a product of wilful contempt, and at times as you will doubtless remind me, a 'criminal' lack of judgement and awareness (as Mike reminds us, by both team and rider - think P.I 2013), which continues to be his achilles heel. Nonetheless, apart from the fact that I am delighted to see Yamaha challenge for the title again, crucially, the experience and fortitude of Jorge and Vale has been key and it's been telling to see Marquez fold under pressure of not having things his way. Last season, if we really must invite the pitfalls of overly simplistic assessments, no one could contest that overall, the Honda was the superior machine - the inequities were at times that pronounced. This year, (as was the case in 2012 when we had the very same debate), the relative strengths of the two main factories are fluctuating - which should be, but often isn't, the hallmark of a prototype series. Just as the advantage vacillates within the Yamaha garage, these comparisons are due to a myriad of variables, involving set up, rider style, tyre provision, circuits, weather and rider psychology. Given your logic we'd have come away from Brno concluding that Jorge only beat Vale because he had the better bike - but in fact, on that particular weekend, based upon the conditions, his style and preferences...at that circuit - he had.
This isn't a debate about the relative merits of two different marques at all. In reality this has nothing to do with Yamaha vs Honda. This is driven solely by your contempt for Marc Marquez. What I'm trying to impress upon you Jums, is the need for objectivity. I neither like nor dislike Marquez - although as in 2002, which was dreadfully dull until right at the end when Barros gained some parity, I don't want to see one rider/manufacturer run the show.
Your views on Marquez are clouded by a disdain verging on the obsessional and buttressed by an inveterate hatred and distrust of the Spanish. Your arguments are coloured by a red mist - an unfalsifiable series of subjective decrees, often tiresome tirades which are tainted by emotion, confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance. I said it to you before, Jum, not once, never, on any occasion have I known you to compliment the bloke on any aspect of his racing - be that past races, qualifying, commitment or riding style. In your ceaseless condemnation of Marquez, you very often allow yourself to favour the anecdotal over the empirical. Question? Do you still maintain that his Moto 2 title was 'rigged' due to HRC somehow colluding with Dorna to ensure the provision of superior engines in a higher state of tune?
If the guy crashes he's exposed as a .... rider, if he wins, it's solely the bike. In short, (pardon the pun), he's a diminutive, disingenuous, disagreeable, detestable .... who has been unfairly expedited to the top through corruption and massive comparative advantage as opposed to any merit whatsoever. How can you possibly present a balanced view given the fact that it's skewed by your level of personal hatred for the guy? - a hatred exceeding even the sustained personal savaging of Stoner which as I recall you were the first in line to condemn.
No spoilers intended, but if this weekend was a commercial trainwreck for HJC, what a magnificent endorsement for Dunlop - even if they did inadvertently deposit more hectares of Malaysian latex plantation on the track surface in the space of an hour than a lifetime of Barry's gimp mask collection. Ten years ago, probably less in fact, given that level of abuse, Tito's rear would have chunked (apologies, if that sounds questionable).
In respect of Moto GP race, as has already been said, Lorenzo had this one wrapped up before the rain came. Particularly since Marquez was forced into running the soft rear which wasn't his preference. Realistically, Vale lacked the pace in the dry, and like Brno, I couldn't see anyone going with them - which has to be a worry for Rossi. Thank .... Mike Webb intervened and reassembled the grid. Not simply for Brad's sake, that would have been messier than Sachsenring 2014. I can't help feeling that Butler would have just let that one run. Although I felt cheated by the weather I nonetheless felt privileged to see another masterclass in the wet from Vale having witnessed Donington '05. Fortunately the rain only increased in intensity towards the end of the race because in my opinion, Silverstone is a far tricker proposition in the wet.
OK, then, regarding the great Honda vs Yam debate, apologies for the repetition folks, but one or two things to clarify comps, because you have largely discarded points previously made on other threads or on occasions [intentionally?] distorted my argument. I agree with Kesh that the straw man is often your greatest ally and partner in crime...(well next to 'stupid vanity' (Sorry Johnboy...way too easy
)Firstly, I am not particularly a fan of Marquez nor do I condone the often flagrant disregard that he has shown over the years for his fellow riders on track in addition to the timely abolition of the rookie rule. Although in honesty I have always found his high risk strategy entertaining, I have attributed his errant behaviour on track more to his wild style than a product of wilful contempt, and at times as you will doubtless remind me, a 'criminal' lack of judgement and awareness (as Mike reminds us, by both team and rider - think P.I 2013), which continues to be his achilles heel. Nonetheless, apart from the fact that I am delighted to see Yamaha challenge for the title again, crucially, the experience and fortitude of Jorge and Vale has been key and it's been telling to see Marquez fold under pressure of not having things his way. Last season, if we really must invite the pitfalls of overly simplistic assessments, no one could contest that overall, the Honda was the superior machine - the inequities were at times that pronounced. This year, (as was the case in 2012 when we had the very same debate), the relative strengths of the two main factories are fluctuating - which should be, but often isn't, the hallmark of a prototype series. Just as the advantage vacillates within the Yamaha garage, these comparisons are due to a myriad of variables, involving set up, rider style, tyre provision, circuits, weather and rider psychology. Given your logic we'd have come away from Brno concluding that Jorge only beat Vale because he had the better bike - but in fact, on that particular weekend, based upon the conditions, his style and preferences...at that circuit - he had.
This isn't a debate about the relative merits of two different marques at all. In reality this has nothing to do with Yamaha vs Honda. This is driven solely by your contempt for Marc Marquez. What I'm trying to impress upon you Jums, is the need for objectivity. I neither like nor dislike Marquez - although as in 2002, which was dreadfully dull until right at the end when Barros gained some parity, I don't want to see one rider/manufacturer run the show.
Your views on Marquez are clouded by a disdain verging on the obsessional and buttressed by an inveterate hatred and distrust of the Spanish. Your arguments are coloured by a red mist - an unfalsifiable series of subjective decrees, often tiresome tirades which are tainted by emotion, confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance. I said it to you before, Jum, not once, never, on any occasion have I known you to compliment the bloke on any aspect of his racing - be that past races, qualifying, commitment or riding style. In your ceaseless condemnation of Marquez, you very often allow yourself to favour the anecdotal over the empirical. Question? Do you still maintain that his Moto 2 title was 'rigged' due to HRC somehow colluding with Dorna to ensure the provision of superior engines in a higher state of tune?
If the guy crashes he's exposed as a .... rider, if he wins, it's solely the bike. In short, (pardon the pun), he's a diminutive, disingenuous, disagreeable, detestable .... who has been unfairly expedited to the top through corruption and massive comparative advantage as opposed to any merit whatsoever. How can you possibly present a balanced view given the fact that it's skewed by your level of personal hatred for the guy? - a hatred exceeding even the sustained personal savaging of Stoner which as I recall you were the first in line to condemn.
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Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
You and JP know perfectly well when I say "riding past the limits" what I'm implying is that he's doing his best to ride around the issues that limit his ability to ride in the way that suits him best. Stoner did it on the Ducati and it won him championships. To pretend to such literal-mindeness, to imply that you don't understand this is to be disingenuous.
Most fans of racing applaud when a rider surpasses perceived limitations of a given piece of machinery. But no.... you two always have a deep-seated need to have at least one rider in any given season upon whom you need to heap scorn. And since MM has done some questionable things in the past - you do the knee-jerk thing of continually throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you had a shred of objectivity you would be able to judge any given race on it's individual merits, but with you it's all black and white. If one race goes bad - then they're all equally bad. It's all so hypocritical. Nicky has sucked ... for years now - but I don't see Jum bad-mouthing him. Instead Jum treats him like royalty wrongly cheated of the throne.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
It didn't start out that way. In the beginning Nicky had ambition. Now, sadly he's just going through the motions. He used to be a contender. Now he's a well paid crash test dummy.
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Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Maybe it had something to do with the fact that the ones that didn't crash were cautiously tip-toeing around 7-30 seconds behind MM.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Disingenuous much? A set-up that works well in the dry - doesn't ipso facto work as well in the dry.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
I'm surprised some of you didn't notice that MM claimed it was braking that put him out, while Kropo claims it was engine braking.
MM has blamed engine braking for his woes, and has explicitly stated engine braking already, but he did not this time. I'm differentiating so no one can use the language barrier ........ excuse.
So there is not an agreement between MM and Kropo on the cause which is intriguing.
It also tells you there is some rank ........ going on in the excuse department.
I have a different theory, Silverstone's tarmac has been increasingly getting bumpier year after year due to the car racing that goes on there. There was a bit of discussion about the bumps this year.
The following is from Bradley Smith...
The bit about Copse is important since that's where MM crashed.
He slid off the bike in the middle of the corner, and it stands to reason the bike got unsettled over the bumps. Quite possible he took a slightly different line through the corner.
But that's far more plausible than this braking ........ and engine braking .........
MM has blamed engine braking for his woes, and has explicitly stated engine braking already, but he did not this time. I'm differentiating so no one can use the language barrier ........ excuse.
So there is not an agreement between MM and Kropo on the cause which is intriguing.
It also tells you there is some rank ........ going on in the excuse department.
I have a different theory, Silverstone's tarmac has been increasingly getting bumpier year after year due to the car racing that goes on there. There was a bit of discussion about the bumps this year.
The following is from Bradley Smith...
The bit about Copse is important since that's where MM crashed.
He slid off the bike in the middle of the corner, and it stands to reason the bike got unsettled over the bumps. Quite possible he took a slightly different line through the corner.
But that's far more plausible than this braking ........ and engine braking .........
