Round 12 Silverstone: Practice, Qualifying, Race

Jums, don't forget that Assen crash in FP a few weeks after the Mugello shunt where he lost the rear slightly in the kink on the back straight and then high-sided, and only managed to have a few minor fractures. Then also the Laguna Seca Corkscrew overtake on Rossi where he managed to not go down when he ran off the track.

Instead of everyone noticing that MM has been highly lucky, everyone seemed interested in convincing themselves everything he does "successfully" on the track is down to his skill, even when it is not. In spite of overwhelming evidence that most of his woes in 2015 were down to him attempting to ride the bike over the limit, it's clearly Honda's fault as usual.

Braking in the middle of Copse in the rain makes zero sense. Yet everyone says, "Well hey, it's perfectly normal for a rider doing over 70MPH in the rain to brake in the middle of the corner with his knee down." Can anyone explain that to me? I'm genuinely interested in learning why you would brake in low grip conditions leaned over.

...., I had to check to see what Kropo had to say about it, and my oh my, it's a good one.

The race from that point on proved the value of proper preparation. Rossi won comfortably – though at one stage his lead did not look as comfortable as he might have liked – after Márquez crashed out. The Repsol Honda rider's crash was a carbon copy of his crashes at Barcelona and Mugello, and occurred for exactly the same reason. Márquez' crew may have solved the engine braking problem in the dry, but with almost no time on the bike in the wet this year, the issue was back at Silverstone. What Márquez described as "the floating feeling", the rear not sliding predictably on corner entry, made it hard for the Spaniard to control the rear under braking. In the end, he lost the battle with physics, and ended on his backside.

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CARBON COPY?

Jesus H. Christ, I should started up a Kickstarter campaign so I can backhand him right in the face.

Low grip conditions in the rain are challenging precisely because grip levels are ever-changing, and what holds true on one lap may not hold true on the very next lap.

lol what the ..... Kropo's write-up is hysterical to no end.

But the muppets are continuing to buy right into the excuses once again.

Shovel, thanks for the insight.

Lotus, Krops makes it sound like Marc has been experiencing some intermitten unpredictable glitch. How did Marc manage to negotiate the laps before the crash? Is he unaware of the motorcycle's specific characteristics after 4 practices and a warm up, and previous races? After all, isnt he the one providing the media soundbites (and I assume the engineers) the "limitations" of the bike? So unless its an unpredictable glitch, then he KNOWS the limitation, whatever he calls it, a lack of engine braking, floating, etc. and ignores it where he pushes the bike expecting it to act in a way he KNOWS it won't; Resulting in a crash.

Jumkie said:

Shovel, thanks for the insight.

Lotus, Krops makes it sound like Marc has been experiencing some intermitten unpredictable glitch. How did Marc manage to negotiate the laps before the crash? Is he unaware of the motorcycle's specific characteristics after 4 practices and a warm up, and previous races? After all, isnt he the one providing the media soundbites (and I assume the engineers) the "limitations" of the bike? So unless its an unpredictable glitch, then he KNOWS the limitation, whatever he calls it, a lack of engine braking, floating, etc. and ignores it where he pushes the bike expecting it to act in a way he KNOWS it won't; Resulting in a crash.

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It's the same horseshit Kropo has been shoveling since it became apparent the RCV wasn't going to carry MM to a triple world championship. As I've stated numerous times, it's rather pathetic that the Yamaha engineers and technicians have received what appears to be minimal credit for pushing the M1 onto the same level as the RCV.

For the sake of argument, if there was in fact the sort of glitch involved with engine braking as Kropo is telling us, it would have been more than apparent to someone of MM's pedigree, and as could be reasonably expected, he would have began dropping off VR's pace as it wouldn't have been worth the risk of crashing since the physics of a crash are unpredictable and serious injury is always in play. Then again, with his ramming tendencies, maybe this doesn't matter to him. It's just another excuse for MM. People are still buying like usual.

FP1: Hey guys, the engine braking doesn't work how I like it.
Garage techs: Ok, well there is nothing we can do about it now, but we will let HRC engineers know.
FP2: Hey guys, the engine braking doesn't work how I like it.
Garage techs: Ok, well there is nothing we can do about it now, but we will let HRC engineers know.
FP3: Hey guys, the engine braking doesn't work how I like it.
Garage techs: Ok, well there is nothing we can do about it now, but we will let HRC engineers know.
FP4: Hey guys, the engine braking doesn't work how I like it.
Garage techs: Ok, well there is nothing we can do about it now, but we will let HRC engineers know.
Q2:Hey guys, the engine braking doesn't work how I like it.
Garage techs: Ok, well there is nothing we can do about it now, but we will let HRC engineers know.
Warm Up: Hey guys, the engine braking doesn't work how I like it.
Garage techs: Ok, well there is nothing we can do about it now, but we will let HRC engineers know.
RACE: .... it, I'm gonna ride like the engine braking works and see what happens.

Marc apologist: it appears Marc is the victim of some unexpected glitch on the RCV TODAY that was engineered into the bike a YEAR ago, and we know this because he has been telling us for the last 6 months.

JPSLotus said:

Sure except as I've already stated, the bike even earlier this year was putting up times matching last year, if not improving on them. The only difference was that so was the M1. Every component on the bike was blamed for causing a problem lol.

Riding within the limits of what the bike gives you, means you won't win, but MM doesn't understand that blaming everything on the bike isn't really proper when one considers he doesn't know or understand the virtue of trying to stay within the limits of the bike even though it means you won't win races. It makes for good stuff to feed the journos because we go down that road of, "If only Honda had the decency to provide MM with a machine that is brought down from the heavens so as to him justice..." whilst ignoring that it's a top 2 bike. Only in la-la land is a top 2 bike considered ...., but alas, this is what many have come to believe.

Oh yeah I forgot, the RCV was designed to battle it out for supremacy against the GP15. :giggle:

No matter that he was aiming to break the 2 minute mark at Silverstone in the dry, but the bike still is not good. You don't say with confidence that 1:59's are possible on a bike that isn't good.

Blaming the floaty feeling when you are racing in the rain, and the rain does have a tendency to give feelings to which one does not get when it is dry, shows he has a fundamental lack of awareness as usual.

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Historically - there have been numerous incidents where manufacturers have made "updates" and "improvements" to bikes that ended up being detrimental to it's actual handling. You seem to suggest that a rider should be like an obedient dog and ride the bike regardless and if that entails losing races due to the chassis being less stable or the engine too peaky, then so be it as long as the rider goes around in circles technically, fulfilling the terms of the contract rather than embarassing the manufacturer by pointing out the errors by the engineers. Again... what some people call feedback - you call whining or excuses.

What "virtue" is there in "riding within the limits" if it means losing races?

Jumkie said:

So the army of Honda engineers have engineered the best bike on the grid and si·mul·ta·ne·ous·ly the worst bike on the grid? Where you propose its because the Japanese engineers want to "show off" (a Japanese cultural trait that is news to me). And we have gathered this because Marquez, now on the Hybrid 2015/2014 bike he wanted crashed on it in the rain?

How does this logic work? Honda engineers present Marc with a bike that he wins on the second round of tge season, then reengineer this awful pig bike to what he has now, where claims of its now improved status abound, with the results to back up the new hybrid, and when he crashes on the "improved" bike its the engineers fault?

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Again with the hyperbolic straw man argument. Show me where Marquez or I said anything about "worst". All he said was the settings weren't optimal. There's a ocean of difference between the two.

Keshav said:

Again with the hyperbolic straw man argument. Show me where Marquez or I said anything about "worst". All he said was the settings weren't optimal. There's a ocean of difference between the two.

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If I had a dime for every weak rebut that started with the defense "show me where I said, or show me where I used this specific word"...bla bla. Are you familiar with this term implied? Because you said that the Honda engineers sit around trying to show off and therefore turn their would be masterpiece into a piece of ..... Because that is exactly the air of arrogance that Japanese engineers must seem like, right? If you are going to make such types of statements then be prepared to defend them other than claiming the challenge is a "straw man" as you routinely go to when you chose not to engage in logical debate.

So lets try this again, did or did you not accuse the Honda engineers of 'over-engineering' the RCV to show off? Its a simple question? In fact its up there for all of us to see. And what did you imply with that statement? Lets examine the message you intend to convey, was it to express the engineers have 'improved' the bike or hinder the bike? So you basically are saying the bike is hindered, and therefore poor old Marc is a victim of these wayward show-off engineers. Now you can respond by some 'hyperbolic' response that does nothing more than deflect from the debate at hand, or we can exchange out opinions regarding our divergent perception of what Marc is experiencing in the current iteration of the RCV as it relates to the men engineering it.

Keshav said:

Historically - there have been numerous incidents where manufacturers have made "updates" and "improvements" to bikes that ended up being detrimental to it's actual handling. You seem to suggest that a rider should be like an obedient dog and ride the bike regardless and if that entails losing races due to the chassis being less stable or the engine too peaky, then so be it as long as the rider goes around in circles technically, fulfilling the terms of the contract rather than embarassing the manufacturer by pointing out the errors by the engineers. Again... what some people call feedback - you call whining or excuses.

What "virtue" is there in "riding within the limits" if it means losing races?

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NO, that is not what Lotus suggested at all. Hyperbolic straw man much homie? He is saying the mothatfucker riding the bike should have enough sense to know where its limits are so they don't go over it. Marc has been complaining plenty, especially for all of us to consume via the media (and some like you buy all of it) that the bike is deficient in some way, letting us know he KNOWS its limits! Then why the hell does he ignore what he already KNOWS about the bike and ride it beyond that exact limitation? The bikes behind Marc are infinitely less capable than the one Marc is riding, so are you then suggesting they are obedient dogs because they 'chose' not to win races? Are you reading the words you type?

Don't you think Lorenzo is capable of wining races on any given sunday, given we all except he is a fantastic rider? So then why does he settle for second, or third, or fourth, etc when he doesn't win? Because he is some obedient dog that rather come second and fulfill his contract?

What "virtue" is there in "riding within the limits" if it means losing races? Kesh Wisdom


Nesflash, every rider that didn't win but didn't crash understands "the virtue" in riding within the limits. Come on Kesh, really man? Hahahaha Jesus.

Keshav said:

Historically - there have been numerous incidents where manufacturers have made "updates" and "improvements" to bikes that ended up being detrimental to it's actual handling. You seem to suggest that a rider should be like an obedient dog and ride the bike regardless and if that entails losing races due to the chassis being less stable or the engine too peaky, then so be it as long as the rider goes around in circles technically, fulfilling the terms of the contract rather than embarassing the manufacturer by pointing out the errors by the engineers. Again... what some people call feedback - you call whining or excuses.

What "virtue" is there in "riding within the limits" if it means losing races?

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Kesh seriously, you're really asking what virtue there is in riding within the limits if it means "losing" races?

It's called, "your ....... team is the virtue" of riding within the limits. Wins are great, but don't underestimate the impact whining about the equipment and blaming the team for crashing out all the time. It's a good way to find yourself labeled a "problem" and "not worth dealing with". While MM may not be in the running for the rider's title, Honda still very much would like to try and win the constructor's title, and when MM crashes out of every other race, it's really difficult to do that.

When you ride outside the limits of the bike, you wind up with .... like Jack Miller taking out both LCR Honda's. That is why you ride within the limits. There is a time and place to push the boundaries of the bike. But if the bike has problems as MM claims along with the rest of the blogosphere, why would you purposely place yourself in a position to crash race after race? You wouldn't unless you have a death wish.

Keshav said:

What "virtue" is there in "riding within the limits" if it means losing races?

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What "virtue" is there in "riding within the limits" if it means losing races? Kesh Wisdom

I think Marc very much illustrated the virtue of "riding within the limits" and the consequences of ignoring this VIRTUE at Silverstone.


HAHAHAHAHAHA, sorry Kesh, but I just had to quote you again as this has me rolling.

(How can I put this as my signature, this is just too good to forget. Not that I haven't filled it in my back pocket for a use at a future date.)

JPSLotus said:

Kesh seriously, you're really asking what virtue there is in riding within the limits if it means "losing" races?

....

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Well there are plenty of reasons why one would understand the virtues of not riding over the limits without ever taking a basic physics course, but certainly avoiding potential life threatening injury might be one little tiny incentive.

Jumkie said:

Well there are plenty of reasons why one would understand the virtues of not riding over the limits without ever taking a basic physics course, but certainly avoiding potential life threatening injury might be one little tiny incentive.

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I think Kesh has been playing "Heroin Hero"

I can't come up with any other reason for someone advocating a 11/10ths approach to racing no matter what.

Fuzzy math. But in Kesh's defense, riders often do say they were pushing 110%. Though, someone might want to remind him, its just a figure of speech. Pushing 100.0000000000000001% equals CRASH.

Question: why is it when the other riders crash there are not pages of apologies that their machines are faulty? I'm laughing because everybody piled on poor Jack Millers, a kid who you'd like to bring home to your daughter, right Mdub; because his bike is so poorly engineered that it caused him to torpedo Cockslow. Follow me here, as I would also like to use Buttflow's crash record to make the following case, I would like to make the case it wasn't Miller's fault at all, clearly something was wrong with the bike evidence by Cuntslow crashing 30 seconds after he left the pit with a "new" one.

JPSLotus said:

Kesh seriously, you're really asking what virtue there is in riding within the limits if it means "losing" races?

It's called, "your ....... team is the virtue" of riding within the limits. Wins are great, but don't underestimate the impact whining about the equipment and blaming the team for crashing out all the time. It's a good way to find yourself labeled a "problem" and "not worth dealing with". While MM may not be in the running for the rider's title, Honda still very much would like to try and win the constructor's title, and when MM crashes out of every other race, it's really difficult to do that.

When you ride outside the limits of the bike, you wind up with .... like Jack Miller taking out both LCR Honda's. That is why you ride within the limits. There is a time and place to push the boundaries of the bike. But if the bike has problems as MM claims along with the rest of the blogosphere, why would you purposely place yourself in a position to crash race after race? You wouldn't unless you have a death wish.

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Jumkie said:

What "virtue" is there in "riding within the limits" if it means losing races? Kesh Wisdom

I think Marc very much illustrated the virtue of "riding within the limits" and the consequences of ignoring this VIRTUE at Silverstone.


HAHAHAHAHAHA, sorry Kesh, but I just had to quote you again as this has me rolling.

(How can I put this as my signature, this is just too good to forget. Not that I haven't filled it in my back pocket for a use at a future date.)

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Ever heard the old saw "It's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease"?
If Honda insists on making improvements that showcase the cleverness of the engineers instead of listening to the feedback from the rider - the rider has no choice to but to use whatever means necessary to get them to make the bike suit the rider and not the other way around.

Rossi complained about this very same issue when he left Honda. Every reasonable minded person on this forum was aghast at the insanity of the Ducati brass blaming the ...... results on the riders instead of building a bike that handled properly. I also seem to recall that Jumkie was the greatest complainer of all when Honda shrunk the bike in 2007 to suit the vision of the engineers who treated riders as if they were merely another component like brakes or handlebars. Nobody complained more vociferously about the injustice to the rider (Nicky) than Jumkie. But Hayden - like the dumb-as-a-stump hillbilly he is, kept his mouth shut and was a loyal uncomplaining employee and Honda .... all over him and he never won anything again.

No racer signs on to win constructor championships. That's pure ......... Racers sign on to win races and world championships.

It is asanine to compare MM to Miller. MM has won a record number of races and poles. Miller hasn't accomplished .....

And when you ask why MM would push to the edge and risk crashing.... you make me wonder if you have any inkling of what racing is about. Tell you what JP... go out and win two world championships and then talk to me about laying back and not trying your best to win races again. What horseshit! The kid is a two time world champion and you expect him to ride around "within the limits" like some no-name test rider? He's a proven champion and you think he should be a good little boy and act like some monkey in a '60s era Soviet test rocket? Racers put their lives on the line TO WIN - not to toe the line for a bunch of four-eyed engineer geeks who don't even attend races.

I always roll my eyes at the, "He was riding beyond the limits of the machine!" comments.

The laws of physics make this an impossibility, but then were most to acknowledge this, it would mean the journos would have less breathy comments to write.

Remember when Casey Stoner would crash? Everyone rushed to say it was his ....... fault. Hell you had people here arguing over that 8 Hours of Suzuka Crash that it was his fault and that Honda would never engineer something that would have a faulty throttle. Then all of a sudden Honda was like, "Oops our bad" and everyone ignored it. Meanwhile, anything that goes wrong with MM's bike is Honda's fault and the engineers have no idea what they are doing.

For some, Honda only sucks when it comes to MM, everyone else who crashes on a Honda probably deserved it. Granted I'll never dispute that Cuntslow deserves most of his crashes.

When Pedrosa crashed at Le Mans it was his fault. Then when MM couldn't win the race, it was the RCV's fault and by proxy the engineers fault. This .... is hysterical lol.

Kesh, there are very few riders that don't employ the public squeaky wheel approach, and I agree, Marc and others use this tactic plenty. But Kesh, why is this the engineers fault when he crashes but Marquez brilliance when he wins? Did not the same engineers design the winning championship bike? When he doesn't win this is a failure of engineering then?

Marc is not saying there is a 'faulty' problem with the bike, like some malfuction, he is saying the characteristics of the machine do not suit him (again). Keep in mind when he was winning the last few races, it was declared here on this forum that Honda had engineered a dream once again. I guess they started to tweak the bike from Brno to Silverstone just to show off. Too bad it backfired. Btw, those engineers are fast, to change the bike so fundamentally in just two weeks, from a commanding race winning bike to a crash test dummy. It looked awesome at Indy, leading the practices and winning the race, it must have really nose dived under those show off engineers just a couple of weeks later.

Anyway boys, it was fun chattin with y'all. But I gots to go. I leave you with these words of wisdom.

What "virtue" is there in "riding within the limits" if it means losing races? Kesh Circa August 2015

Keshav said:

Ever heard the old saw "It's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease"?
If Honda insists on making improvements that showcase the cleverness of the engineers instead of listening to the feedback from the rider - the rider has no choice to but to use whatever means necessary to get them to make the bike suit the rider and not the other way around.

Rossi complained about this very same issue when he left Honda. Every reasonable minded person on this forum was aghast at the insanity of the Ducati brass blaming the ...... results on the riders instead of building a bike that handled properly. I also seem to recall that Jumkie was the greatest complainer of all when Honda shrunk the bike in 2007 to suit the vision of the engineers who treated riders as if they were merely another component like brakes or handlebars.

No racer signs on to win constructor championships. That's pure ......... Racers sign on to win races and world championships.

It is asanine to compare MM to Miller. MM has won a record number of races and poles. Miller hasn't accomplished .....

And when you ask why MM would push to the edge and risk crashing.... you make me wonder if you have any inkling of what racing is about. Tell you what JP... go out and win two world championships and then talk to me about laying back and not trying your best to win races again. What horseshit! The kid is a two time world champion and you expect him to ride around "within the limits" like some no-name test rider? He's a proven champion and you think he should be a good little boy and act like some monkey in a '60s era Soviet test rocket? Racers put their lives on the line TO WIN - not to toe the line for a bunch of four-eyed engineer geeks who don't even attend races.

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Racers sign on to win races and world titles?

How do you explain Nicky Hayden puttering around these days? Did he really sign to win anything? I can't imagine he is delusional enough to seriously think he will ever win anything on his current bike. Racers sign on to get ....... paid. That's a fact Kesh. Very few have the option to pick where they want to go, most have to go to whomever will take them. Winning is nice, but circumstances tend to dictate where one goes more often than not.

The 9-times world champion seems to understand quite well the virtue of aiming for finishing the race in the points. He's leading the championship by taking this approach. He takes his chances when they are given, otherwise you don't see him crashing out with banzai moves, or trying to ride the bike to it's absolute limit. If he wins the title, it's going to be because he did it by riding within the limits of the M1. He doesn't have the outright speed of either Lorenzo or MM, but he does have the intelligence to make up for it. He's been on every podium this season because of it Kesh.

You know what every world champion on 2 and 4 wheels has in common for the most part (excluding a few exceptions)? They all understood the virtue of when to go for it, and when to not go for it. The scribes attribute all sorts of fantasy .... to them that is meant to sell magazines or subscriptions, but any real racer knows that collecting points while not thrilling for the fans, is far more intelligent than trying to win races that you can't win. You try and win the races when you have a legitimate shot, not when it requires being on the limit for the entire race.

JPSLotus said:

He's an ..... for a plethora of reasons.

But it's cute that you try and paint him just as young and impulsive.

Oh yeah, trying to ram other riders off the track is just being young and impulsive.

You're hilarious.

As I said, we were saved a potentially catastrophic accident late in the race between him and VR when he high-sided out. He was lining up to make a move that would have made Miller's audacious overtake attempt look like routine fare.

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I think in a way it must be a big relief for Rossi, to have people off his neck and all intent on hating Marc Marquez now... ! Amusing.

J4rn0 said:

I think in a way it must be a big relief for Rossi, to have people off his neck and all intent on hating Marc Marquez now... ! Amusing.

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Oh, so in other words, you have nothing to add here?

Cool.