Round 12 Silverstone: Practice, Qualifying, Race

birdman said:

The thing that annoyed me most was the inference this year's championship was lost by Honda. No blame could be apportioned to Marquez, who it was said could only expect to finish 7th on the terrible Honda without risking a crash. If the person claiming this also happened to mention he is a fanboy of Marquez, then I wouldn't have an issue with it. But no, it was claimed to be a fact.

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Out of interest, who was the person that claimed this?

birdman said:

The fact is Marquez himself has lost the championship, not Honda.

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I'd say it was a bit of both.

Jumkie said:

EXCEPT he is NOT riding his 2014 bike like he did last year post Assen!

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Absolutely, and a point that I made at the time my esteemed friend. Marc has definitely reigned in his high stakes wayward style, and although not remotely approaching the 'Lawsonesque' there has clearly been some degree of compromise trading the profligate for the more economical.

Jumkie said:

Put this 'alien' on Bautista's bike, then let me know how much you appreciate that lap.

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???? But as you well know, that lap wouldn't be possible on Bautista's bike. Just as, with the greatest respect to Alvaro, that lap wouldn't be possible if he were given Marc's ride.

Jumkie said:

Pushing to the limit, or beyond the limit? He was pushing to the limit and went beyond it, that's what caused his problems, NOTHING else.

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The suggestion is, which you appear to vehemently disagree with, that the limit was clearly defined on last years machine. You list a litany of his protestations, but Marquez has above all stressed that a peakier motor, a savage less refined throttle response combined by a lack of flex in the chassis has not only prevented him from riding the bike the way that he wants to but has blurred this boundary. Several of us have made the point, and this is entirely based upon supposition derived from observation and the perceived philosophy at Yamaha dedicated to keeping things simple. The M1 appears to be a more amenable machine than the RCV both in terms of set up, adaptability and rideability. At, Marc VDS, both team and rider attest to being lost and the RCV does appear to be an excessively complex package and I thoroughly agree with #22's appraisal.

Jumkie said:

Marc not only blamed the: engine, power, electronics, chassis, swing arm, brakes, etc (not exaggerating, basically the whole bike) but he also blamed Stoner for developing a pig.

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Links? Quotes?

Jumkie said:

Lorenzo, when he went into the pit his visor looked like shower mirror. His race was over before it started. Ben Spies may have some advice for him.

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Brilliant comps

ratdeal said:

Marquez is a constant cause for concern. Exciting to watch he may be, but we have learnt that he is far from predictable. Will he learn to be more so in his career? Perhaps, but I do believe when the chips are down, unless something drastically changes, his occasional rash decision making will prevent him from winning as many championships as he should/could.

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Agree

shovelhead said:

You all know my connection with shark helmets.

Lorenzo was asking 900,000 euros for helmet sponsorship, too expensive for Shark to even consider it, but looks like Lorenzo cheaper helmet with lots of $ponsorship money is costing him the championship this year.
Two races messed up by his helmet

Is the money really worth it?

.

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Apparently Jarvis issued a stern reminder/warning prior to the start of the season throughout Yamaha to this effect

neti1 said:

As to his crash-prone 2015 season, I'd suspect it's a combination of overdriving a less competitive bike, and having the handling characteristics less suited to his personal technique. I suspect that the tougher competition may also have exposed a few psychological cracks.

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My friend, all these possibilities - (particularly the last one which I think is highly pertinent) have in past threads fallen on deaf ears, but I commend you for trying and wish you all the best in your future endeavours.

Jumkie said:

HJC is such a ...... product, I honestly never thought a pro would use one. 900K may cost him title.

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Ha!!! think your best mate Aaron Yates. As I recall he even lost that deal for drop kicking another rider.

Jumkie said:

I thought for a moment that Daniel Petrucci might win the race? I did. And was rooting for him.

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As our good friend Johnn, sorry, Moto chi…I mean, Super Manatee is so fond of reminding us, it’s been almost a decade since we've had a satellite victory. Although didn't Barros podium ahead of the works Ducati on the Pramac ride at Mugello in 2009?

Jumkie said:

Now the probability and odds have caught up to him and everybody is like , well let me correct that not everybody but just his supporters or those with blinders are like hey something might be wrong with his motorcycle (the engineers are to blame). The same engineers that have engineered the absolute best bike on the grid! They are mimicking the same gesture Marc did yesterday when he threw up his hands in disbelief like I don't get it, what happened?

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Everybody?

No one that I am aware of has suggested that the bike is solely to blame and why again do you persist with this universal, simplistic notion that the RCV is in all respects the 'best bike on the grid'? According to who? Surely that depends on a myriad of factors and circumstances; pointedly which grid and what tyres are beneath it. Watching FP3 on Saturday from various points of the circuit and looking down from the stand at Club/Vale a notoriously difficult section of the track, the Yamaha looked incredibly stable and planted in spite of the rippled approach to the turn. The RCV looked ragged in comparison. But as many of us insist, it seems to like to be ragged and ridden hard to exploit the 'superiority' you speak of, and given that the same can be said of the Bridgestone front, are you really convinced from the comfort of your recliner that this is such an easy thing to unlock?

Jumkie said:

Mike, Marquez almost put in a sub two minute lap at Silverstone. Pedrosa had similar pace. Does that sound like a hard bike to ride?

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No, it sounds like qualifiying and as has been consistently pointed out, race sim and race duration was causing the issues. That said, those issues appear to have been resolved. Also, in spite of your hatred for both, Dani and Marc are fast and have tended to be perform well at qualifying. As for the bike being hard to ride, exploiting such margins, I think that at this level, they are all hard to ride, although the Honda in particular - even post Assen where it was as planted as I've ever seen it - does look a handful to me. Based upon your logic the Ducati GP07 - 10 was a pleasure cruise solely because Stoner won races on it and consistently stuck it on pole. 'Does that sound like a hard bike to ride?'

Place that current Honda in the hands of any rider bar Rossi and Lorenzo and it wouldn't be achieving the results that Marquez has. Moreover, Rossi and Lorenzo would both require/demand serious revisions in advance and the concessions that they enjoy at Yamaha. It is precisely this historical primacy of 'engineering' over rider at HRC which myself, #22, Mike and Kesh all refer to and you have scornfully lampooned my good buddy, that mainly caused Valentino to pack his bags and .... off to Yam for 2004.

JPSLotus said:

Oh, so in other words, you have nothing to add here?

Cool.

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Add to what? You freely assert your own assumptions -- not only about what happened in the race but also about what was going to happen, as if you could know..., -- and that's fine, you are free, only there's not much factual or even rational left to discuss.

On a light note, have a look at this -- the caption by VR says: That's what happens when you touch Brad Pitt's hand! LOL

J4rn0 said:

On a light note, have a look at this -- the caption by VR says: That's what happens when you touch Brad Pitt's hand! LOL

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Finally something that matters. Thanks De J4rn0! I was getting hella tired of everyone discussing Marcs ambition compared to talent. I had a similar reaction from all my friends with Brad Pitts wife. Everyone, man and woman, wanted to smell my pinky.

JPSLotus said:

I'm surprised some of you didn't notice that MM claimed it was braking that put him out, while Kropo claims it was engine braking.

MM has blamed engine braking for his woes, and has explicitly stated engine braking already, but he did not this time. I'm differentiating so no one can use the language barrier ........ excuse.

So there is not an agreement between MM and Kropo on the cause which is intriguing.

It also tells you there is some rank ........ going on in the excuse department.

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Interestingly, having now watched the coverage, there was immediate speculation in the commentary box that harsh engine braking upon closing the throttle may have been the culprit, which even given the bizarre nature of the crash and the supposed enduring maladies of the Honda, was I thought a tad presumptuous. However, forum posts, speculation in the press, and Motomatters aside, I would love to be privy to the telemetry.

JPSLotus said:

The bit about Copse is important since that's where MM crashed.

He slid off the bike in the middle of the corner, and it stands to reason the bike got unsettled over the bumps. Quite possible he took a slightly different line through the corner.

But that's far more plausible than this braking ........ and engine braking .........

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The ripples at Silverstone are indeed horrendous and to compound the problem next year the circuit is to see the return of truck racing, a sport so moronic that even Parrish is a multiple title holder. Obviously, heavy braking zones such as Copse, Vale, and Borooklands/Luffield are particularly bad and your theory that Marquez's extreme lean angle in combination with the rucked surface may well have caused the crash. I honestly think his crew were as bemused as he was though. Perhaps he saw what happened to Stoner when he had the temerity to blame a bump at Motegi so he went with braking as an excuse instead.

Standing water has always been an issue at Silverstone. When Marc went down the rain had yet to intensify but I did wonder at the time when I saw the crash relayed on the screen whether this was the cause. You only have to be inches off a previous line and it can chuck you off.

Interestingly on the subject of telemetry, Cal was doing no different to his previous laps when he crashed at Brno.

Keshav said:

Disingenuous much? A set-up that works well in the dry - doesn't ipso facto work as well in the dry.

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He is exquisitely articulate (err I.mean excruciatingly), wise beyond his considerable years, 100% insightful (20% of the time), a pleasure to read (my entertainment), and a rocker to boot (err rocking chair), no im not talking about Arrabbiata1, I speak of none other than Keshav.


Not even sure this nonsense warrants a reply because its hardly insightful. Have u resorted to throwing words randomly into a post as rebuttal? Disingenuous? Pedrosa and Marcus were matching each other enough in wet and dry conditions to make a general assessment that the RCV is superb in either conditions.

Do u have any wise words for us today kesh?

(Dont get your wrinkles all knotted up buddy, just pissing on you. Wait, is it taking the piss?, I forget.)

Arrabbiata1 said:

Interestingly, having now watched the coverage, there was immediate speculation in the commentary box that harsh engine braking upon closing the throttle may have been the culprit, which even given the bizarre nature of the crash and the supposed enduring maladies of the Honda, was I thought a tad presumptuous. However, forum posts, speculation in the press, and Motomatters aside, I would love to be privy to the telemetry.

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The problem I have with the engine braking coming off throttle is the same problem I have with the braking that has yet to be explained to me. Why would a rider with that talent get on the brake in the middle of Copse with his knee down? And not to say that he might not roll off throttle, but I have a hard time seeing MM roll off throttle in the middle of the corner in the rain if the engine braking is suspect. Ditto on the telemetry as it would tell us definitively as to whether or not he did in fact brake, or did in fact roll off throttle. If he did one of those two, it still begs the question of why?

The ripples at Silverstone are indeed horrendous and to compound the problem next year the circuit is to see the return of truck racing, a sport so moronic that even Parrish is a multiple title holder. Obviously, heavy braking zones such as Copse, Vale, and Borooklands/Luffield are particularly bad and your theory that Marquez's extreme lean angle in combination with the rucked surface may well have caused the crash. I honestly think his crew were as bemused as he was though. Perhaps he saw what happened to Stoner when he had the temerity to blame a bump at Motegi so he went with braking as an excuse instead.

Standing water has always been an issue at Silverstone. When Marc went down the rain had yet to intensify but I did wonder at the time when I saw the crash relayed on the screen whether this was the cause. You only have to be inches off a previous line and it can chuck you off.

Interestingly on the subject of telemetry, Cal was doing no different to his previous laps when he crashed at Brno.

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Well that's it with Silverstone, they have morons running the circuit. There is zero conceivable reason to run trucks there unless the BRDC is as usual trying to decrease their shortfall since F1 is bleeding them dry year after year. Either way, whatever the reasoning is, I'm constantly aghast by their stupidity, but then again I'm never quite sure why I have that reaction since Derek Warwick talks out of both sides of his mouth...and has been for decades. He'll still tell you that he could have run with Senna at Lotus in 1986 even though there's nothing that indicates any such thing would have happened. I digress. I hate Silverstone. I think it's a .... track nowadays. The last layout I genuinely liked was the 1991 layout. The 2009 and on circuit is an abomination. I wish MotoGP would have ...... off to Donington for this year because I'd rather watch them there than to have to ever watch another Silverstone race. Even Brands Hatch would be better.

So yeah, track ripples. The circuit has a ton of them, and in a wet weather race on 2 wheels where standing water is problematic, it's certainly plausible that one or both may have contributed to the crash. I still think there's something to it because without seeing the telemetry, the only thing we have to go by is the visual, and I haven't understood either why MM slid off the side of the bike ever so slightly.

Blaming braking would make sense if he knows the team would have just looked at him as if he had three heads for suggesting the track surface.

JPSLotus said:

Ditto on the telemetry as it would tell us definitively as to whether or not he did in fact brake, or did in fact roll off throttle. If he did one of those two, it still begs the question of why?

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Due to Arrabbiatta's insight, if he was off line then he could have encountered some standing water causing him to hydroplane slights. Something unexpected like that could cause someone to roll off the throttle and brake.

JPSLotus said:

Well that's it with Silverstone, they have morons running the circuit. There is zero conceivable reason to run trucks there unless the BRDC is as usual trying to decrease their shortfall since F1 is bleeding them dry year after year. Either way, whatever the reasoning is, I'm constantly aghast by their stupidity, but then again I'm never quite sure why I have that reaction since Derek Warwick talks out of both sides of his mouth...and has been for decades. He'll still tell you that he could have run with Senna at Lotus in 1986 even though there's nothing that indicates any such thing would have happened. I digress. I hate Silverstone. I think it's a .... track nowadays. The last layout I genuinely liked was the 1991 layout. The 2009 and on circuit is an abomination. I wish MotoGP would have ...... off to Donington for this year because I'd rather watch them there than to have to ever watch another Silverstone race. Even Brands Hatch would be better.

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I must admit, I do miss the bridge section. I remember a WSB race in 2002 where they had closed the Luffield stands because they had huge yawning chasm like gaps in them but we invaded them anyway due to the horrendous weather. It was far worse than last Sunday and in race 1 Bayliss fell twice but remounted both times to finish an astonishing fifth. The standing water was a death trap and Hodgy testified to two wheel slides on every entrance each lap into maggots and sudden unexpected aquaplaning as the rain got worse.

I like Silverstone. As great as it may be as a viewing circuit, you really wouldn't want Doni right now as a punter, the place looks like a warzone since the Gillet consortium carved it up. "Even Brands Hatch"??!! I love Brands. It tends to produce great racing, has wonderful character and to host MotoGP would be incredible. The irreconcilable dispute over money was huge loss for the Superbike calendar.

Agree about the BRDC and the way that Silverstone is run, however were you aware that due to contractual obligation, the event last weekend was actually run by the Circuit of Wales which is why the Mayor of Monmouth amongst others was presenting the trophies. The only reason that it didn't go to Donington was that they reneged on the payment date.

So the inaugural Circuit of Wales event was held at Sliverstone? Thats hilarious. Only in the UK.

Jumkie said:

So the inaugural Circuit of Wales event was held at Sliverstone? Thats hilarious. Only in the UK.

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Well in fairness, it's more due to the fact that the ever myopic Dorna awarded a Grand Prix to a circuit that only existed as a CAD drawing and the owners/backers were contractually obliged to deliver. Imagine if the only venue they could find had been Knockhill.

Arrabbiata1 said:

Well in fairness, it's more due to the fact that the ever myopic Dorna awarded a Grand Prix to a circuit that only exists as a CAD drawing and the owners/backers were contractually obliged to deliver. Imagine if the only venue they could find had been Knockhill.

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Edited for truth...

Great contributions to this thread guys. I've enjoyed each and every one of your responses.

#22 said:

Great contributions to this thread guys. I've enjoyed each and every one of your responses.

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Mexican Monkey, the last time I extended kudos to the members contributions, Kesh retaliated with the mother of all epic rants. Hope history doesn't repeat.

What's with all of the circle jerking and occasional ... ....... about Marc here? Did anyone see who won the race? Who gives a .... about Marc anymore he's out of it through his own .... ups due to the Yamaha catching up this season and now for the first time he's facing proper rivals.
I'm amazed jums, haven't you seen Kropos write up and it's horrendous Lorenzo bias? He's been absolutely slammed in the comments section, and now he's closed the thread! ....... hilarious

Talpa said:

I'm amazed jums, haven't you seen Kropos write up and it's horrendous Lorenzo bias? He's been absolutely slammed in the comments section, and now he's closed the thread! ....... hilarious

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Wait, I thought I was biased in favor of Marc?

...., I can't keep up with whose fanboi I'm supposed to be any more.

Talpa said:

What's with all of the circle jerking and occasional ... ....... about Marc here? Did anyone see who won the race? Who gives a .... about Marc anymore he's out of it through his own .... ups due to the Yamaha catching up this season and now for the first time he's facing proper rivals.
I'm amazed jums, haven't you seen Kropos write up and it's horrendous Lorenzo bias? He's been absolutely slammed in the comments section, and now he's closed the thread! ....... hilarious

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Haha, classic Talps. Good to read u buddy. Haven't seen it, but I'll log on. Thanks for the entertainment tip.

Kropotkin said:

Wait, I thought I was biased in favor of Marc?

...., I can't keep up with whose fanboi I'm supposed to be any more.

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Hey Krops, welcome home buddy!

Stick around man. I'll be on my best behavior. Pinky promise. Nah really man, try to suffer us for a while. Missed u at Indy. I even brought an olive branch.

Jumkie said:

Pinky promise.

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Don't go there, you'll set Mdub off again.

Arrabbiata1 said:

Don't go there, you'll set Mdub off again.

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And Stuper Mankini.

I hope Krops doesn't have me on ignore, as I would like to post something I think we can all agree on, HJC hell-mets are .......

This is the second time this year that Lorenzo's helmet has cost him points, after the lining came loose at Qatar causing him to drop back down to fifth. So is his helmet manufacturer to blame? There certainly appear to be both quality control and design issues with the HJC helmets, at least at the level of professional racing, as this is not the first time which helmets have caused problems in the race. Ben Spies suffered a loose visor, and then fogging of the visor in the rain. Lorenzo has had two issues this year which have cost him points, as well as previous problems with fogging. ...

Lorenzo's predicament is indicative of the dilemma faced by top level racers. His contract with HJC is rumored to be exceedingly lucrative, and Lorenzo provides important feedback which goes towards improving the design of HJC's production helmets. But when a helmet manufacturer suffers multiple problems in one year, potentially causing the loss of a championship, perhaps it is time to reconsider. Krops

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I think thats the end of the non-controversial part of his take though.

Kropotkin said:

Wait, I thought I was biased in favor of Marc?

...., I can't keep up with whose fanboi I'm supposed to be any more.

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...and now for the blatant fanboyism:

It really couldn't happen to a nicer guy, and Petrucci is definitely one of the most underrated riders in the paddock. Everybody was happy for him, the applause for Petrucci louder when he entered the press conference room than when the winner, Valentino Rossi did. On his way out of the circuit in the evening, he was greeted and congratulated by members of the IODA team, who he raced for last year. They were just as happy for him as if he was still part of the team. Kropo

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Jesus Kropo, did you give Petrucci a kiss? You're such a Petrucci fanboy. Why don't you just start your own Damnielo Petruggi fanclub already.

Jumkie said:

He is exquisitely articulate (err I.mean excruciatingly), wise beyond his considerable years, 100% insightful (20% of the time), a pleasure to read (my entertainment), and a rocker to boot (err rocking chair), no im not talking about Arrabbiata1, I speak of none other than Keshav.


Not even sure this nonsense warrants a reply because its hardly insightful. Have u resorted to throwing words randomly into a post as rebuttal? Disingenuous? Pedrosa and Marcus were matching each other enough in wet and dry conditions to make a general assessment that the RCV is superb in either conditions.

Do u have any wise words for us today kesh?

(Dont get your wrinkles all knotted up buddy, just pissing on you. Wait, is it taking the piss?, I forget.)

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You only replied because I'm pulling your strings you puppet! Ooops... that's Jum's favorite retort.

Actually Compa you replied because yer a masochist and love having me tear apart your short-sighted arguments, as in... what difference does it make whether or not MM and Pedrosa were doing comparably well in the dry? They're not riding identical bikes, and both riders have different styles. Futhermore, one cannot assume that (even if they had identical bikes and riding styles) that they both used the same chassis settings for riding in the rain. Moreover, it has already been pointed out that Pedrosa was way far back from MM and Rossi when MM fell in a bumpy corner with standing water. Considering how often you employ straw man ploys you should change your avatar to that of the iconic image of the Burning Man.

Helpful hint Homey, If only you could see past your gut, you wouldn't be puzzled as to where your urine was directed.