Rossi Stoner Psychological Battle

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bill @ Aug 5 2008, 05:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Folks,

Don't know about you, but if I was in any of VR or CS's positions I would be getting a top sports psychologist to profile my opponent to work out how he ticks, and how to really get under his skin, in order to affect his performance. Even if it creates a 1% advantage, it'd be worth it.

As a huge rugby fan, I used to enjoy hearing about how Clive Woodward used to do things like this, and using vision coaches and the like, to create little advantages over opponents and their coaches. He certainly had a mental thing over many of the Aussie team and Eddie Jones their coach.

Any thoughts? Some here might think that VR's good enough at this already on his own, but I think Casey is a tougher opponent than Max and Gibbers....

would be wasting time, imo

rossi's the doctor he doesn't need a psychologist to tell him how to get under caseys skin. he worked that out for himself.. overtake him in the corkscrew

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bill @ Aug 5 2008, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Casey is a tougher opponent than Max and Gibbers....

If Rossi wants to destroy him, he doesn't care if Casey is tougher than Max and Sete. We would destroy him anyway. But Vale himself said he doesn't want to turn their rivalry to those that he had with Biaggi and Gibernau. But if Casey continues that crap "bla bla bla I lost a lot of respect for him bla bla bla", Vale will not think twice about destroying him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheMaster170 @ Aug 5 2008, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If Rossi wants to destroy him, he doesn't care if Casey is tougher than Max and Sete. We would destroy him anyway. But Vale himself said he doesn't want to turn their rivalry to those that he had with Biaggi and Gibernau. But if Casey continues that crap "bla bla bla I lost a lot of respect for him bla bla bla", Vale will not think twice about destroying him.

With all due respect for others opinions, Stoner is made in a similar mould to Mick Doohan & I'm sure that I'm not alone in thinking that ultimately Casey will let the argument be fought on the track.

Many other riders tried that sort of stuff with Mick & it was ultimately they who suffered defeat... It's still a long way off to make any judgements about who is going to come out of this on top in the end.

If any rider is so worried about 'getting into the head' of an opponent that they have to seek assistance to determine a strategy, then they should retire immediately because they are not concentrating on the job at hand and for which they are paid, to ride motorcycles.

Any rider who is more worried about an opponent has already shown a weakness and should only worry about themselves and their preparations, not another rider.





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheMaster170 @ Aug 5 2008, 06:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If Rossi wants to destroy him, he doesn't care if Casey is tougher than Max and Sete. We would destroy him anyway. But Vale himself said he doesn't want to turn their rivalry to those that he had with Biaggi and Gibernau. But if Casey continues that crap "bla bla bla I lost a lot of respect for him bla bla bla", Vale will not think twice about destroying him.
So Stoner's success is because Rossi allows it? BAHAHAAHA

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Aug 5 2008, 02:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So Stoner's success is because Rossi allows it? BAHAHAAHA


What a ........

I didn't say that. What I said was that is better for Casey not to enter in a psychological battle with Rossi. Even if Casey is tougher than Max and Sete, he must not enter in such battle with Rossi. Max and Sete were awesome riders and didn't won a title in 500cc/MotoGP because Rossi destroyed them mentally. If Stoner does begin a psychological battle with Vale, I think that he will end like those two (the diference is that he has one a title and they didn't). That's what I said. He should concentrate on him and on his performances. And that's what he has done so far.

The last time casey was said to be totally psychologically destroyed was soon followed by 3 successive race wins. He has still only put the bike down once during a race in the last 29, and this cost him at most one position and 5 points; I think you will find dr rossifumi has dropped the bike more times at the cost of far more points in this timespan without much speculation about him being psychologically destroyed. Valentino may well beat stoner by riding better than him particularly if they improve the yamaha, and may also provoke further comment from him off track particularly since this does not seem to be difficult to do, but I don't think it will affect what casey does during a race.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheMaster170 @ Aug 5 2008, 08:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What a ........Are you hurt that I called your ridiculous fanboyism out? Also, WTF do you have to do with this, Mr. "We would destroy him anyway." I somehow doubt you're Vale's right hand man.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheMaster170 @ Aug 5 2008, 08:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I didn't say that.You made it quite clear - if Rossi felt like it, he'd call you up and the two of you would somehow "destroy" Stoner.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheMaster170 @ Aug 5 2008, 08:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What I said was that is better for Casey not to enter in a psychological battle with Rossi. Even if Casey is tougher than Max and Sete, he must not enter in such battle with Rossi. Max and Sete were awesome riders and didn't won a title in 500cc/MotoGP because Rossi destroyed them mentally. If Stoner does begin a psychological battle with Vale, I think that he will end like those two (the diference is that he has one a title and they didn't). That's what I said. He should concentrate on him and on his performances. And that's what he has done so far.If the possibility for victory is there, why on earth wouldn't Rossi take it? He's not in it to lose. He's not sitting there thinking "I could destroy this guy, but I think I'll let him win the championship instead".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Aug 5 2008, 08:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The last time casey was said to be totally psychologically destroyed was soon followed by 3 successive race wins. He has still only put the bike down once during a race in the last 29, and this cost him at most one position and 5 points; I think you will find dr rossifumi has dropped the bike more times at the cost of far more points in this timespan without much speculation about him being psychologically destroyed. Valentino may well beat stoner by riding better than him particularly if they improve the yamaha, and may also provoke further comment from him off track particularly since this does not seem to be difficult to do, but I don't think it will affect what casey does during a race.


well said michaelm. i agree. casey is a much tougher opponent than rossi has faced in the past, and rossi openly admits it.

that being said, i do understand bill's point of the post. i just don't think either one of them are sitting in their RV's conjuring up some sort of voodoo on the other guy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Aug 5 2008, 03:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are you hurt that I called your ridiculous fanboyism out? Also, WTF do you have to do with this, Mr. "We would destroy him anyway." I somehow doubt you're Vale's right hand man.You made it quite clear - if Rossi felt like it, he'd call you up and the two of you would somehow "destroy" Stoner.If the possibility for victory is there, why on earth wouldn't Rossi take it? He's not in it to lose. He's not sitting there thinking "I could destroy this guy, but I think I'll let him win the championship instead".

With all due respect to Curve and without trying to steal his words:

I like ham!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bill @ Aug 5 2008, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As a huge rugby fan, I used to enjoy hearing about how Clive Woodward used to do things like this, and using vision coaches and the like, to create little advantages over opponents and their coaches. He certainly had a mental thing over many of the Aussie team and Eddie Jones their coach.
It did help that clive was a better coach than eddie and that england had a better team; I too am an avid rugby fan and I can tell you most aussie rugby fans were astonished that australia got as close as they did.

I don't disagree that psychology can be important, but mostly actually being better is more effective, and this was certainly the case with valentino against gibernau and biaggi, and was the case on one given day at laguna seca this year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Aug 5 2008, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The last time casey was said to be totally psychologically destroyed was soon followed by 3 successive race wins. He has still only put the bike down once during a race in the last 29, and this cost him at most one position and 5 points; I think you will find dr rossifumi has dropped the bike more times at the cost of far more points in this timespan without much speculation about him being psychologically destroyed. Valentino may well beat stoner by riding better than him particularly if they improve the yamaha, and may also provoke further comment from him off track particularly since this does not seem to be difficult to do, but I don't think it will affect what casey does during a race.
-well if you cast your mind back to last year mike, peeps were saying vale was choking under pressure and hes to old and past it bla bla bla. i dont believe rossi is past it and i dont believe any words will "destroy" stoner. both riders have proved there the best of the crop and both will fight it out on the track where it should be fought
i dont hold anything against casey dropping his bike at laguna, had the race gone like that to the end its quite possible rossi may have done the same. both were on the edge. stoners words at the end worry me that he may be fighting his own mind when things dont go his way. if anybody's mind games will defeat him it will be his own against himself imo.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Aug 5 2008, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>-well if you cast your mind back to last year mike, peeps were saying vale was choking under pressure and hes to old and past it bla bla bla. i dont believe rossi is past it
You know that I agree with you about rossi. I argued several times last year that valentino dropped the bike because he deliberately went hard early on cold tyres to give himself a chance of a win which otherwise would not have been in prospect given the propensity of stoner/ducati/bridgestone to take off rapidly into the distance from the start-line at that time. He could easily have settled for places and I believe have ensured second place in the championship but still went for race wins even when his bike and tyres did not appear to be up to it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Aug 5 2008, 02:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well said michaelm. i agree. casey is a much tougher opponent than rossi has faced in the past, and rossi openly admits it.

that being said, i do understand bill's point of the post. i just don't think either one of them are sitting in their RV's conjuring up some sort of voodoo on the other guy.
THey dont have to work the VOODOO cause That has been my doing.

It doesn't take a genius to get under Stoners skin.. hes also quite capable of pissing himself off too

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Aug 5 2008, 08:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>stoners words at the end worry me that he may be fighting his own mind when things dont go his way. if anybody's mind games will defeat him it will be his own against himself imo.
agreed big rodge.
I also believe that casey may be wound a little too tight for his own good.
Intensity can be an asset, but being too intense can cause mental fatigue.
He should try to outperform his opponents (VR) in this case, but be careful not to try to outperform his own limits.
VR is will probably go down as the greatest rider in history (and it's hard to argue), but I think he knows and understands that you cannot win every race, and cannot control every situation. I dont believe CS has matured to this point yet (he may get there and he may not)
To put it in its simplest terms take a step back, take a deep breath, and relax just a little

The mind is what separates great from greatness, not talent IMO

i think i'll make that its own thread

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Aug 6 2008, 12:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It doesn't take a genius to get under Stoners skin.. hes also quite capable of pissing himself off too
This is completely undeniable. The question is whether it affects what he does during a race, and since he has been with ducati this does not seem to be the case. I guess time will tell whether the laguna seca race and its aftermath will change this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheMaster170 @ Aug 5 2008, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If Rossi wants to destroy him, he doesn't care if Casey is tougher than Max and Sete. We would destroy him anyway. But Vale himself said he doesn't want to turn their rivalry to those that he had with Biaggi and Gibernau. But if Casey continues that crap "bla bla bla I lost a lot of respect for him bla bla bla", Vale will not think twice about destroying him.

South Africa 2004 GP was a good example how Vale show his skill and capabilities to beat Max & Sete in unproven Yam beating HRC machines. Max wasn't Vale true opponent even he was riding Repsol Honda in 2005. Sete? well he was on non-factory Honda all this while except when he had to replace Doohan in 1999. Before that he was riding the under power HRC V-Twin. But then he was the only one who could beat Vale on some occasions when he was with Honda.

Casey/Duc/Bridgestone combination is a different class unlike Max or Sete and Vale needs different strategy to win the championship. Come the second half of season where the tracks are longer and wider we will see the fierce battle between Vale and Casey and I bet it'll be decided at Valencia if not in Sepang..