Rossi speaks out over Lorenzo contract

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Sep 10 2009, 05:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Same Bike, Same Season… And Riders with ‘Wins’ in order to get rid of none probable World ‘Champions’:

2000 Honda = Barros / Capirossi / Criville / Rossi.
2001 Honda = Barros / Rossi.
2002 Honda = Barros / Rossi / Ukawa.
2003 Honda = Biaggi / /Gibernau / Rossi.
2004 Yamaha = Rossi.
2005 Yamaha = Rossi.
2006 Yamaha = Rossi.
2007 Yamaha = Rossi.
2008 Yamaha = Lorenzo / Rossi.
2009 Yamaha = Lorenzo / Rossi.

When was Rossi on ‘Inferior’ Machinery against other Manufactures? Must have been between 2004 and 2007 because nobody else could win with the same Machinery!

So, in 2008 and thus far in 2009 Yamaha has been superior to the Ducati - glad we agree

2008 - Stoner
2009 - Stoner





Gaz

I am almost grateful when Rossi haters mindlessly insist with the litany of Rossi winning only because of "strong-arming" and getting the best equipment by many devious means.

Yeah. Piss him off! Just as in 2003 when you were all repeating he was winning only because of a superior RC211V

A pissed-off Rossi has been the best show in MotoGP since 2004. Maybe he could be for another couple of years, if all these improvised Lorenzo supporters manage to piss him off properly

It's a bit ironic that Rossi is now the one getting pissed off more and more with Lorenzo when just last year he was saying that he's 'loving' the apparent animosity between Lorenzo and Pedrosa.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 10 2009, 01:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Geez, surprised it lasted this long but nope Roger he has not won 103 aces in the premier class but has won 103 races across 125/250/500/MotoGP).

He has won 12x125cc, 14x250cc and 77x500/MotoGP (source http://www.motogp.com/en/riders/profiles/Valentino+Rossi)

Doesn't diminish achievements in any way, just correctingbecause I am a pedantic Aussie prick who can't spell (and becasue we keep getting bloody beaten - but dd do the springboks on the weekend)








Gaz
ok slight slip up but the point still stands. WTF does this bloke have to do, refer to sackys original post.


come on then flunkie, i thought you were going to teach me a lesson. you have not acknowledged any of my fact filled posts. It's not enough just telling yourself your winning the debate, you have to actually win it first

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 10 2009, 08:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A pissed-off Rossi has been the best show in MotoGP since 2004. Maybe he could be for another couple of years, if all these improvised Lorenzo supporters manage to piss him off properly

Have to totally disagree with you.

A 'pissed off' Rossi has not been the 'best show in Motogp since 2004' but he has contributed to what has been some great shows, some good shows and some piss poor ordinary shows. The statement you make alludes to Rossi being the sport and he is not - he is a part of it.

Now, as for improvised Lorenzo supporters I don't think they would piss him off anymore than the fact that Yamaha resigned a person that VR did not want resigned.

To Rossi I suspect that he sees the resigning of Lorenzo as a show of disrespect from Yamaha and he will need no further motivation than that and I suspect that we will see a reinvigorated Rossi with a touch of 'hate'.






Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Sep 10 2009, 08:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>ok slight slip up but the point still stands. WTF does this bloke have to do, refer to sackys original post.

Umm, I don't have to as all I was doing was correcting your premier class commentand as I say, whether it be 77 or 103 does not diminish VR's achievements (nor should ti).



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Sep 10 2009, 08:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>come on then flunkie, i thought you were going to teach me a lesson. you have not acknowledged any of my fact filled posts. It's not enough just telling yourself your winning the debate, you have to actually win it first

Me, flunkie?

You give me to much credit Rog as I ain't trying to debate you as your posts are genuinely reasonably thought out and all, leaving the debating you to Jumkie as you both do it so well.

But as an FYI, I heard from a guy on the street who is cousins with a guy who was listening over the fence at some park in Italy as two guys discussed contracts and it appears as though Rossi has signed a 2 year contract with teh Astana team to compete in the Tour de France from 2011 onwards.






Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 10 2009, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Have to totally disagree with you.

A 'pissed off' Rossi has not been the 'best show in Motogp since 2004' but he has contributed to what has been some great shows, some good shows and some piss poor ordinary shows. The statement you make alludes to Rossi being the sport and he is not - he is a part of it.

Now, as for improvised Lorenzo supporters I don't think they would piss him off anymore than the fact that Yamaha resigned a person that VR did not want resigned.

To Rossi I suspect that he sees the resigning of Lorenzo as a show of disrespect from Yamaha and he will need no further motivation than that and I suspect that we will see a reinvigorated Rossi with a touch of 'hate'.


Gaz

I think that Rossi is too clever to hate anyone, he just doesn't want to share anything with his rival.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 10 2009, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Umm, I don't have to as all I was doing was correcting your premier class commentand as I say, whether it be 77 or 103 does not diminish VR's achievements (nor should ti).





Me, flunkie?

You give me to much credit Rog as I ain't trying to debate you as your posts are genuinely reasonably thought out and all, leaving the debating you to Jumkie as you both do it so well.

But as an FYI, I heard from a guy on the street who is cousins with a guy who was listening over the fence at some park in Italy as two guys discussed contracts and it appears as though Rossi has signed a 2 year contract with teh Astana team to compete in the Tour de France from 2011 onwards.






Gaz
flunkie = jumkie

Anyone who can realistically doubt Rossi is just silly.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 10 2009, 10:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Have to totally disagree with you.

A 'pissed off' Rossi has not been the 'best show in Motogp since 2004' but he has contributed to what has been some great shows, some good shows and some piss poor ordinary shows. The statement you make alludes to Rossi being the sport and he is not - he is a part of it.

Now, as for improvised Lorenzo supporters I don't think they would piss him off anymore than the fact that Yamaha resigned a person that VR did not want resigned.

To Rossi I suspect that he sees the resigning of Lorenzo as a show of disrespect from Yamaha and he will need no further motivation than that and I suspect that we will see a reinvigorated Rossi with a touch of 'hate'.

Gaz

Rossi has been the best show in MotoGP, actually since 2001, and this is true, regardless that one likes it or not. No other rider comes close in terms of wins, duels, feats and whatnot. This never implied he "is" the sport--of course he isn't, and I surely never said that

What pisses Rossi off -- I am wondering why it seems so difficult to understand -- is simply that Yamaha have given Lorenzo full access to bike development, an area which Rossi took for granted was his and Burgess'. All other considerations are off the mark.

They have given Lorenzo this privilege, morevoer, after just one year and with just a one-year contract to cover the future.

I have noted in another post the oddity of Yamaha's behavior in this respect... if you want to secure a young talent, you have sign him for at least two years. One year makes lttle sense, unless someone at Yamaha wants to walk straight on Rossi's toes. Which, I think, is what is happening

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 10 2009, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi has been the best show in MotoGP, actually since 2001, and this is true, regardless that one likes it or not. No other rider comes close in terms of wins, duels, feats and whatnot. This never implied he "is" the sport--of course he isn't, and I surely never said that

Not gonna touch it as to me the show is the entire sport, and does not necessarily mean that the main element is the person who wins the most races etc, for me it is the entire show put on by all riders across the year.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 10 2009, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What pisses Rossi off -- I am wondering why it seems so difficult to understand -- is simply that Yamaha have given Lorenzo full access to bike development, an area which Rossi took for granted was his and Burgess'. All other considerations are off the mark.

Please, who is arguing that?

The quiestion is have they given JL access to all areas of bike development or have they undertaken to develop for JL as they do for VR (and separately at that - which would be very strange)?

I do not have access to the contracts so have no idea as to what has been agreed other than the reports of 'equal', a term which can vary in many areas.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 10 2009, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>They have given Lorenzo this privilege, morevoer, after just one year and with just a one-year contract to cover the future.

I have no problems with them giving JL equal treatment after two years (well 1.5) and I don't see why that is the issue, but to throw everything at a rider and then sign that rider for one year is indeed interesting.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 10 2009, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have noted in another post the oddity of Yamaha's behavior in this respect... if you want to secure a young talent, you have sign him for at least two years. One year makes lttle sense, unless someone at Yamaha wants to walk straight on Rossi's toes. Which, I think, is what is happening

Well to be fair, tje extra year does make JL's third so it isn't quite like securing but I do understand your point and yes, it is strange and does seem aimed at seasons end 2010 when all 4 of the current big names are free to negotiate.

Maybe there are plenty of facts taht aren't being mentioned and the obvious one is dollars that may be available (ie. when does FIAT sponsorship run out?)







Gaz

I see, there's a lack of information. To understand Rossi's present complains one needs to remember a few things--or have the patience to listen in case they did not know them.

Year 2003:

At the end of practice, a Honda electronic engineer used to go around and collect from the various Honda teams not only telemetry printouts, but also the related setup data. "For Honda's database" said the man. But one day Rossi and Burgess found out that their data were being passed to Gresini and Pons.

Those data included suspension and frame setup, gears information, tyre etc. Not surprisingly, both Rossi and Burgess were mightily pissed off! So one day, when the engineer came Burgess handed him just the bare telemetry printouts. "We have not yet found the right settings" he told him "no use giving you temporary data mate, they'd be useless. We'll send them to you as soon as we finalize the setup".

Of course, the setup was not finalized until after the WU .... So from that moment on the tap remained shut, and Rossi won 6 of the remaining 7 races.

Does this ring any bell?

It should, at least if you are Yamaha and are repeating Honda's mistakes.

I am not surprised if Rossi moves to Ducati from 2011. Furusawa said M1 is in its maturity now. The rest of the filed will catch up eventually at least in next year. Even if he leaves Yam at the end of next year, he has nothing to loose. Maybe, only Ducati with Phillip Morris can afford to pay his salary and the development costs. Ducati proves its financial capacity by offering Lorenzo 13-14M.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 10 2009, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Does this ring any bell?
Also doohan and criville (particularly) and various other honda riders during mick's run in the 90s. Doohan was not backward about complaining either. Apocryphally he adopted the screamer engine because nobody else could ride it, not because it was necessarily faster.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 10 2009, 02:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry V, but you have kinda lost me so here goes.

Are you saying that 2007 is different to 2008 because VR had more championships and therefore it makes it different when the discussion was around bikes?

So the more championships of a rider should impact a discussion about bikes?

Ok, so lets say that because a rider is 'great' he therefore has more winds and therefore makes the bike seem better than it actually may be in reality - is this your point?

If so, how then can anyone not ride a better bike until Rossi, Stoner or Hayden win again (ie. the next champion not lone of the aforementioned three has to have been a superior bike because they would not be a multiple champion?)?

So, if we are to say that the more championships a rider wins makes them better, should we also not therefore adjust our expectations to suit?

Gaz

No Gaz, not at all. What I was trying to point out is simply that the more races (and Championships) the more probable that there is a win not having it all with roses. I mean, if any given Rider wins a race in a life time (say Dovisiozo or Elias so far), the more probable they got a lucky factor on that given day. So completely on the other side, if you analyze a Rider with the most wins, it is probable that more of them were not all roses, of course a lot of them must have been on an advantaged, but still there's bigger probabilities that quite a few were 'Not on an advantage'.

Also I tried to point out that Rossi had Championships in which no other Rider wan with the same Machinery, making it even more probable that it would have been 'inferior' Machinery.

Both 'probabilities'… That's all Gaz.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 10 2009, 02:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, in 2008 and thus far in 2009 Yamaha has been superior to the Ducati - glad we agree

Gaz

Yes we agree in 2008. Nevertheless, Rossi did it, as I pointed out in 2004 and 2005 as I see it, with 'inferior' Machinery.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 10 2009, 02:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2008 - Stoner
2009 - Stoner

Gaz

Of course, but as was said: "Same Bike, Same Season (Rossi's)" on that little discussion, I only pointed out the Riders with wins under those conditions. So I was not putting Stoner's wins a side.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (geewhiz14 @ Sep 10 2009, 03:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's a bit ironic that Rossi is now the one getting pissed off more and more with Lorenzo when just last year he was saying that he's 'loving' the apparent animosity between Lorenzo and Pedrosa.

Sounds like Gibernau, because they were great friends before the rivalry started… Look what happened. I think he never got along with Biaggi, I don't think Pedrosa has ever been a 'One on one' kind of Rider, Stoner a bit more.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 10 2009, 03:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Have to totally disagree with you.

A 'pissed off' Rossi has not been the 'best show in Motogp since 2004' but he has contributed to what has been some great shows, some good shows and some piss poor ordinary shows. The statement you make alludes to Rossi being the sport and he is not - he is a part of it.

Now, as for improvised Lorenzo supporters I don't think they would piss him off anymore than the fact that Yamaha resigned a person that VR did not want resigned.

To Rossi I suspect that he sees the resigning of Lorenzo as a show of disrespect from Yamaha and he will need no further motivation than that and I suspect that we will see a reinvigorated Rossi with a touch of 'hate'.

Gaz

I don't see the resigning itself as a 'Piss Off' reason, the reason I think is about rights over Bike development! I would be 'Piss Off' if I were Rossi/Burgess.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 10 2009, 05:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi has been the best show in MotoGP, actually since 2001, and this is true, regardless that one likes it or not. No other rider comes close in terms of wins, duels, feats and whatnot. This never implied he "is" the sport--of course he isn't, and I surely never said that

What pisses Rossi off -- I am wondering why it seems so difficult to understand -- is simply that Yamaha have given Lorenzo full access to bike development, an area which Rossi took for granted was his and Burgess'. All other considerations are off the mark.

They have given Lorenzo this privilege, morevoer, after just one year and with just a one-year contract to cover the future.

I have noted in another post the oddity of Yamaha's behavior in this respect... if you want to secure a young talent, you have sign him for at least two years. One year makes lttle sense, unless someone at Yamaha wants to walk straight on Rossi's toes. Which, I think, is what is happening

Totally agreed!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 10 2009, 07:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I see, there's a lack of information. To understand Rossi's present complains one needs to remember a few things--or have the patience to listen in case they did not know them.

Year 2003:

At the end of practice, a Honda electronic engineer used to go around and collect from the various Honda teams not only telemetry printouts, but also the related setup data. "For Honda's database" said the man. But one day Rossi and Burgess found out that their data were being passed to Gresini and Pons.

Those data included suspension and frame setup, gears information, tyre etc. Not surprisingly, both Rossi and Burgess were mightily pissed off! So one day, when the engineer came Burgess handed him just the bare telemetry printouts. "We have not yet found the right settings" he told him "no use giving you temporary data mate, they'd be useless. We'll send them to you as soon as we finalize the setup".

Of course, the setup was not finalized until after the WU .... So from that moment on the tap remained shut, and Rossi won 6 of the remaining 7 races.

Does this ring any bell?

It should, at least if you are Yamaha and are repeating Honda's mistakes.

+1.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Sep 10 2009, 07:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Also doohan and criville (particularly) and various other honda riders during mick's run in the 90s. Doohan was not backward about complaining either. Apocryphally he adopted the screamer engine because nobody else could ride it, not because it was necessarily faster.

+2.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 10 2009, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I see, there's a lack of information. To understand Rossi's present complains one needs to remember a few things--or have the patience to listen in case they did not know them.

Year 2003:

At the end of practice, a Honda electronic engineer used to go around and collect from the various Honda teams not only telemetry printouts, but also the related setup data. "For Honda's database" said the man. But one day Rossi and Burgess found out that their data were being passed to Gresini and Pons.

Those data included suspension and frame setup, gears information, tyre etc. Not surprisingly, both Rossi and Burgess were mightily pissed off! So one day, when the engineer came Burgess handed him just the bare telemetry printouts. "We have not yet found the right settings" he told him "no use giving you temporary data mate, they'd be useless. We'll send them to you as soon as we finalize the setup".

Of course, the setup was not finalized until after the WU .... So from that moment on the tap remained shut, and Rossi won 6 of the remaining 7 races.

Does this ring any bell?

It should, at least if you are Yamaha and are repeating Honda's mistakes.
To be fair to george if not yamaha, whilst there is no evidence of which I am aware that he can develop a bike, he has apparently managed a better set-up than rossi on at least 2 occasions this year, and also as someone else has said managed to set up the bike on michelins last year, although I guess he would have had rossi's 2007 data.

Personally I think that entire interview is bollocks and made up to create some headlines. There is no way Rossi would give a toss about Lorenzo being in the team.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 10 2009, 05:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>They have given Lorenzo this privilege, morevoer, after just one year and with just a one-year contract to cover the future.

I have noted in another post the oddity of Yamaha's behavior in this respect... if you want to secure a young talent, you have sign him for at least two years. One year makes lttle sense, unless someone at Yamaha wants to walk straight on Rossi's toes. Which, I think, is what is happening
I don't think anyone at Yamaha would be dumb enough to deliberately make Rossi mad. They want to have the best riders they can in their team, that's the same anywhere. Yamaha already did secure him for two years, they're now adding a third. The way I see it is Yamaha wanted to keep their 1-2 lineup for 2010 but then be free to discuss teammates with Valentino for his new contract. With Stoner, Pedrosa and Lorenzo all out of contract for 2011, along with Spies likely moving to the series in 2010 and an eye to move to the factory squad for 2011, this gives Yamaha and Valentino options. I can understand Valentino's frustrations in only being offered two year deals while Lorenzo gets a single, but you can bet Yamaha wouldn't be doing so in an attempt to overthrow Valentino. It's merely an option to keep the Yamaha in a position to take home more 1-2s and be ready for Spies or Pedrosa or Stoner to team Rossi in 2011.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Sep 10 2009, 04:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think anyone at Yamaha would be dumb enough to deliberately make Rossi mad. They want to have the best riders they can in their team, that's the same anywhere. Yamaha already did secure him for two years, they're now adding a third. The way I see it is Yamaha wanted to keep their 1-2 lineup for 2010 but then be free to discuss teammates with Valentino for his new contract. With Stoner, Pedrosa and Lorenzo all out of contract for 2011, along with Spies likely moving to the series in 2010 and an eye to move to the factory squad for 2011, this gives Yamaha and Valentino options. I can understand Valentino's frustrations in only being offered two year deals while Lorenzo gets a single, but you can bet Yamaha wouldn't be doing so in an attempt to overthrow Valentino. It's merely an option to keep the Yamaha in a position to take home more 1-2s and be ready for Spies or Pedrosa or Stoner to team Rossi in 2011.
i believe rossi is friends with and has mentored to a degree marco simonchelli. so there could be a possibility he could join up with rossi in 2011 to.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Sep 10 2009, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To be fair to george if not yamaha, whilst there is no evidence of which I am aware that he can develop a bike, he has apparently managed a better set-up than rossi on at least 2 occasions this year, and also as someone else has said managed to set up the bike on michelins last year, although I guess he would have had rossi's 2007 data.

Now that's an interesting point and I was waiting for someone to bring it up

Background: two riders who have suffered from the single tyre maker rule are Stoner and Rossi, since "their" superhard Bridgestones, those that only them were capable of using, are no more available. So the field has been levelled. In this levelled field, with this more limited choice of tyres, it seemes the Yamaha is more easily set up for Lorenzo, than for Rossi. Rossi, trying to set up the bike "as he likes", seemes to struggle more. OK.

But when Lorenzo's and Rossi's teams are trying to set up the same bike, to be able to know what Rossi/Burgess are doing helps Lorenzo and his team all the same. Out of their unique experience, Vale and Jeremy certainly rule out many options from the start, at each track, which Lorenzo's team would have to laboriously check out one by one otherwise.

So sharing the data helps Lorenzo and his team in finding whatever setup they can eventually find--even if it is something different from what would suit Valentino, and what he'll eventually find.

My impression is that Rossi/Burgess, at Misano, have inaugurated a new era of unilateral non-sharing. And suddenly Lorenzo has been slower the entire weekend, at a track he loves. Next races will tell whether my guess is right or not.

But even apart from all this, what I think really pisses Rossi off is the thought that Lorenzo could have a say in defining the 2010 bike. Now, that's a problem that cannot be solved as easily. With reduced testing and reduced costs and reduced everything, bikes can not change much during a season, and I bet Rossi really does not want Lorenzo, or any other rider for that matter to be part of the equation