Rossi speaks out over Lorenzo contract

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 15 2009, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The 'best in show' is different to 'the show' in it's purest definition and being fair 'the show' is a matter of interpretation and dependent on one's viewpoint (ie. to a fan, Rossi is 'the show', to others he may be 'best in show') snd your use of teh 'best in show' term does provide another insight

No problems with that and hardly arguable at the moment (but happy to argue degrees just to keep the thread alive and Talpa happy)

Totally agree with regards to comparison/equality and the difficulty (yes - seriously) and that is why I often do it for the fun by using the same source for numbers and twisting them to show how it can work both ways and how if one bases everything on numbers (which are facts) often other factors can well be overlooked. See, to me number (ie. race wins, championships, fastest lap etc) are facts, but which bike is best, who is the best rider etc are opinions (which can be based on fact but are not facts) and it is here where many arguments get hung up.

I think it fair to say that you and I enjoy the numbers game a little (hey, I am out of work so bored and have time ) and to me, often opinions are not borne out by numbers or can be challenged with numbers, thus I waste time and gave fun.

The difficulty for many of these guys is that for them to get the 'numbers' that you allude to, will require the likes of VR to be out of the sport at which time the comparison becomes meaningless (just as it does comparing VR to those of before). The situation really is a no win as if the numbers are produced in the current era many search for reasons/excuses to explain the anomoly (ie. someone else winning) and if the numbers get produced post-Rossi people will say 'ah, but of Rossi was around'.

Being totally honest I actually feel quite sorry for the young racers of today and many who's careers have parralleled Rossi because many are sublime talents in their own rights, but were simply wrong place/wrong time in terms of career timing.

Now, as to PR it is hard to argue but (oh god, can hear the screams already), should the PR capability of a person influence there 'rating' in discussions relating to motorcycle racing abilities as opposed to their impacts on the sport?

See, I look at it this way and will use the same comparison I have before.

Rossi is to motorcycle racing what Tiger Woods is to golf, yet people don't seem to put so much emphasis on Tiger's PR activities so much as his golfing abilities and wins.



EDIT: Threw in some smilies so people realise this is just fun.

Gaz

I agree that PR is by no means the main factor, hell, it is more like the 20th factor to me… Achievements, results, actions and reactions, etc. are! From only winning one ‘Spectacular’ race in a life time, to being the ‘Best’ in the Sport, to being the ‘Top of the Best’, all the way to being the ‘Best of All’!

An example being Elias, a lot of people cheer for him. Having ‘One’, a ‘Single’ race win in his MotoGP achievements. Elias is no PR beauty either, just hanging in there until ‘Contract Time’ starts, and by all means if he does not get soon a Contract like in present; hell, he will stick it to the ‘Factory Squad’ once every two tries.

On the other hand we have Lorenzo, more of a PR Rider. Of course he has achievements in MotoGP so far. But I also think, and as you say it, he ‘Is in the right place at the right time’. Things for him would be much different if he had landed on a Honda or Ducati Factory ride to begin with. Still PR does its stuff, but after his achievements.

Then we have the likes of Pedrosa, PR is not his thing, but I even think that it influences just a bit for him to not get better achievements today. Puig does not help at all related to this. So today Media makes it harder for Pedrosa, after also having made it easier at start for him saying he was the ‘Promised’ next best thing, it back fired for not getting results as expected.

All this just to point that any given Rider does have to prove himself first with results, ‘If’ and only ‘If’ he is talented, then PR will do its thing in order to help him just a bit more.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 15 2009, 07:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The 'best in show' is different to 'the show' in it's purest definition and being fair 'the show' is a matter of interpretation and dependent on one's viewpoint (ie. to a fan, Rossi is 'the show', to others he may be 'best in show') snd your use of teh 'best in show' term does provide another insight
Seems like you DO have some extra time to spend here

but come on Gaz, talk about twisting words
If you want a full analysis I can't give you that but I can give you this:
He did say "the best show", not "the (only) show". I'd say that clearly indicates more than one show inside the sport. As Rossi is a "show" it's safe to assume that other riders are "shows". In fact, as we reach here it's also clear that "show" can be translated into something like "entertaining rider".
In other words, "best show" should be translated to "most entertaining rider".

So there is no one trying to suggest Rossi are bigger than the sport this time either. Actually, isn't this "bigger than the sport thing" getting tiresome? Seems like some Stoner fans and some Rossi haters are doing the best to pin this on Rossi and/or his fans and now it's just getting repetitive and boring. Your first interpretation of "the best show" into "the (only) show" is a fairly typical misinterpretation and how some build their anti Rossi cases.
I'm not saying you are anti rossi but it's obvious that you are getting very close

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 16 2009, 07:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Seems like you DO have some extra time to spend here

Unemployed thank you to the farken financial ........ - so yep have time.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 16 2009, 07:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>but come on Gaz, talk about twisting words

Pot - black (maybe even reread many of your own postings)?

Read the entire thread, read any thread and the twisting of words occurs so if I did I would not be the first, last or even next.

Suggest all you want but those in glasshouses should not throw stones (not necessarily aimed at yourself - or is it? )

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 16 2009, 07:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you want a full analysis I can't give you that but I can give you this:
He did say "the best show", not "the (only) show". I'd say that clearly indicates more than one show inside the sport. As Rossi is a "show" it's safe to assume that other riders are "shows". In fact, as we reach here it's also clear that "show" can be translated into something like "entertaining rider".
In other words, "best show" should be translated to "most entertaining rider".


Or best show could mean 1 show - the show - the only show worth watching

Again, read previous posts and I msut add, given other responses it seems that maybe I was not alone in my interpretation.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 16 2009, 07:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So there is no one trying to suggest Rossi are bigger than the sport this time either. Actually, isn't this "bigger than the sport thing" getting tiresome?

Given up trying to argue with Jumkie I take it.

My opinion, yep opinion (I use that word when it is not fact) is that a great many people do treat Rossi as being the sport.

I even recall reading posts in a variety of forums stating that people turned off Indy when Rossi crashed 'because there was no need to watch anymore'.

I have also heard/read comments that Rossi should be treated differently because of his record when comparisons are undertaken, or even when actions are considered (ie. why when VR says one thing is it ok, yet when another rider says the same that rider is incorrect?)

So yes, people have alluded to their opinion that Rossi is the sport

Is it worth arguing about, nope because it isopinion and not fact



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 16 2009, 07:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Seems like some Stoner fans and some Rossi haters are doing the best to pin this on Rossi and/or his fans and now it's just getting repetitive and boring. Your first interpretation of "the best show" into "the (only) show" is a fairly typical misinterpretation and how some build their anti Rossi cases.
I'm not saying you are anti rossi but it's obvious that you are getting very close

So making points about Rossi that do not sit within the defined acceptable comments of others makes me Anti Rossi?

If so, I can accept that as personally I would rather think with clarify than be a sheep amongst the flock without knowing why I am part of that flock.

But the thing I find amusing is the 'Rossi Hate' crap (same applies for stoner hate, etc) that gets spun by people just because others have a different viewpoint. Personally I am well over the accusation being made about Rossi Haters in this joint simply because those people question aspects of Rossi or interpret statements different to others.

You won't find me hating a rider because of his fans, nor because of a perceived whinging/whining, or because he has buck teeth, or because he may be gay or for any reason. Believe what you want as personally, I have better things to do now that my bike is ifxed.









Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 16 2009, 09:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Unemployed thank you to the farken financial ........ - so yep have time.




Pot - black (maybe even reread many of your own postings)?

Read the entire thread, read any thread and the twisting of words occurs so if I did I would not be the first, last or even next.

Suggest all you want but those in glasshouses should not throw stones (not necessarily aimed at yourself - or is it? )



Or best show could mean 1 show - the show - the only show worth watching

Again, read previous posts and I msut add, given other responses it seems that maybe I was not alone in my interpretation.




Given up trying to argue with Jumkie I take it.

My opinion, yep opinion (I use that word when it is not fact) is that a great many people do treat Rossi as being the sport.

I even recall reading posts in a variety of forums stating that people turned off Indy when Rossi crashed 'because there was no need to watch anymore'.

I have also heard/read comments that Rossi should be treated differently because of his record when comparisons are undertaken, or even when actions are considered (ie. why when VR says one thing is it ok, yet when another rider says the same that rider is incorrect?)

So yes, people have alluded to their opinion that Rossi is the sport

Is it worth arguing about, nope because it isopinion and not fact





So making points about Rossi that do not sit within the defined acceptable comments of others makes me Anti Rossi?

If so, I can accept that as personally I would rather think with clarify than be a sheep amongst the flock without knowing why I am part of that flock.

But the thing I find amusing is the 'Rossi Hate' crap (same applies for stoner hate, etc) that gets spun by people just because others have a different viewpoint. Personally I am well over the accusation being made about Rossi Haters in this joint simply because those people question aspects of Rossi or interpret statements different to others.

You won't find me hating a rider because of his fans, nor because of a perceived whinging/whining, or because he has buck teeth, or because he may be gay or for any reason. Believe what you want as personally, I have better things to do now that my bike is ifxed.









Gaz

Gaz, i agree with a lot of what you write and there is much in here that i think is correct.

BUT you seem stressed?

maybe you should take up physical exercise, it is most beneficial. just ask MDud, he seems very calm and relaxed for someone who trains 6 days a week. Or you could try the top end fishing method as used by notable moto gp stars and maybe do a comparison test?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Sep 16 2009, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gaz, i agree with a lot of what you write and there is much in here that i think is correct.

BUT you seem stressed?

maybe you should take up physical exercise, it is most beneficial. just ask MDud, he seems very calm and relaxed for someone who trains 6 days a week. Or you could try the top end fishing method as used by notable moto gp stars and maybe do a comparison test?



Thank for the concern Al, but not really stressed so much as frustrated that some people refuse to look at mirrors - unless they are all like me and plain old to ugly to bother.

Mate, to be honest I actually had a great day as the bike was back on the road and a mate and I went bush bashing for 300 or so kilometres in some of the best country in our immediate areas (views like this).

8224SCF7981.JPG]

8225SCF7985.JPG]

So nope, no stress and as for the physical exercise, I am living proof that the old saying 'its the thought that counts' is wrong, as I think about my fitness daily but it doesn't help me get fit and I hate fishing (no offence to those that enjoy it) so that is out.

Hmmm, may go and ask fthe wife for a ............................................... 8226:mod_smilie_bj.gif]









Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 16 2009, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Unemployed thank you to the farken financial ........ - so yep have time.
Pot - black (maybe even reread many of your own postings)?

Read the entire thread, read any thread and the twisting of words occurs so if I did I would not be the first, last or even next.

Suggest all you want but those in glasshouses should not throw stones (not necessarily aimed at yourself - or is it? )
You got it the wrong way. I am NOT the one that again and again claim any kind of neutrality. I am a Rossi fan and everyone know it. That's my glass house and I feel well here.
You on the other hand are claiming to be less coloured by the your stand AND you claim in this tread that a fan is going to far glorifying his hero. That's your glass house and I'm happy throw stones at it any time

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Or best show could mean 1 show - the show - the only show worth watching
And this is where you are wrong. I might not be 100% in English but the good enough to understand the logic of language in this case. "The best show" clearly tell us there must be more than one show (the show); And undefined number or worse shows. Anything else is nothing but wild speculation about what he might have ment. What he wrote was clear enough and could not have implied the (only) show.
It could be as you suggest "the only show worth wathcing" but that's a faaar stretch and for him to clear up and not for you to put in his mouth.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Again, read previous posts and I msut add, given other responses it seems that maybe I was not alone in my interpretation.
And that's not unexpected. When it comes to interpretation of what Rossi fans says and what they "really" mean this forum is nothing less than exceptional.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Given up trying to argue with Jumkie I take it.
Well, "tired of" is a better description, but even so, he seems to avoid even the best baits right now so I guess he is given up a bit too

flw
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>My opinion, yep opinion (I use that word when it is not fact) is that a great many people do treat Rossi as being the sport.

I even recall reading posts in a variety of forums stating that people turned off Indy when Rossi crashed 'because there was no need to watch anymore'.
If they do turn off because their favourite is out that's sad, but it could be like a couple of Ducati fans I know who also turned off and took a ride in the nice weather instead because the race were 99% decided and let's face it, the rest of the race were booooring.
So to me you display another typical knee reaction to Rossi fans, taking it the worst way possible.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I have also heard/read comments that Rossi should be treated differently because of his record when comparisons are undertaken, or even when actions are considered (ie. why when VR says one thing is it ok, yet when another rider says the same that rider is incorrect?)

So yes, people have alluded to their opinion that Rossi is the sport
Hardly a surprise that some does, but why should you start jumping conclusions because there are idiots out there? Two wrong never made on right. Attack the morons not someone who stated the obvious, that Rossi has been "the best show" "best in show" "the most entertaining rider".... the last 10 years.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>So making points about Rossi that do not sit within the defined acceptable comments of others makes me Anti Rossi?

Is it the Rosso cloth that make you blind of rage?
I thought that I was quite clear about this in my previous post.
If there are any logic to be used there are not room for the way you interpreted the sentence, it is just wrong. (and that is a fact)
So go on and "make your points" all you like but if you go on misinterpret things like the "the best show" or for that matter, my defence of the usage of "the best show" and start screaming about coloured glasses, pot kettle and expressing the general "victim of the Rossi hordes" you will have a mirror raised in front of you like now. I don't know if it's hate, actually I don't think it is, but for some reason you don't apply your usual logic when you get the sniff of anything that smell Rossi glorification. Calm down and make sure you are on the right trail before you start your crusade and NOT get started by a wrongly interpreted sentence. This time you missed it by a mile.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>You won't find me hating a rider because of his fans, nor because of a perceived whinging/whining, or because he has buck teeth, or because he may be gay or for any reason.
At least we both have the same view on that one and I believe you, I just suspect you get a bit carried away when you get the sent of glorification.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 16 2009, 05:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Mate, to be honest I actually had a great day as the bike was back on the road and a mate and I went bush bashing for 300 or so kilometres in some of the best country in our immediate areas (views like this).

8224SCF7981.JPG]

8225SCF7985.JPG]
Looks absolutely fantastic, Gaz.

SCORE: Gaz 1000X the rest 0.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 16 2009, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>SCORE: Gaz 1000X the rest 0.
Ahh come on, thats because your biased! I put it more at a soccer score 2-1. I give a point to al for his gaz is fat blast. Sorry it was a stress blast.

Gaz, are you Russel Crowe? or maybe this guy?








8227:gaz.jpg]
Or maybe their test tube baby?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 16 2009, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thank for the concern Al, but not really stressed so much as frustrated that some people refuse to look at mirrors - unless they are all like me and plain old to ugly to bother.

Mate, to be honest I actually had a great day as the bike was back on the road and a mate and I went bush bashing for 300 or so kilometres in some of the best country in our immediate areas (views like this).

8224SCF7981.JPG]

8225SCF7985.JPG]

So nope, no stress and as for the physical exercise, I am living proof that the old saying 'its the thought that counts' is wrong, as I think about my fitness daily but it doesn't help me get fit and I hate fishing (no offence to those that enjoy it) so that is out.

Hmmm, may go and ask fthe wife for a ............................................... 8226:mod_smilie_bj.gif]









Gaz
off topic but who cares ??
those rock faqces are interesting. where they carved like that for the road ? surley that shape is not natural ?

and i love fishing, weather permitting i will be the wet cold bloke on the beach in total darkness fishing when i should be in the pub like normal people

i await berry with all his fisherman tales

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Sep 16 2009, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>off topic but who cares ??
those rock faqces are interesting. where they carved like that for the road ? surley that shape is not natural ?

and i love fishing, weather permitting i will be the wet cold bloke on the beach in total darkness fishing when i should be in the pub like normal people

i await berry with all his fisherman tales
Won't speak for Gaz but it looks natural to me. Generally, formations like that in this part of the US are formed by erosion from either past rivers or glacial movement. Not sure if Aus had similar glaciation to what we experienced but that looks like formations I've seen locally.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Sep 15 2009, 09:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gibernau never gave Valentino anything close to a dice in 2002, he never even finished on the podium. And McCoy was hurt most of the year, only finishing in the top ten three times, no higher than ninth. The switch to four strokes was exciting right up until the first race when their development had already well-surpassed the 500s, making that storyline relatively minimal. Barros made it interesting at the end of the year. As any racing fan, you have to wonder what could have been if Barros had a 211V all year.

It is true that Valentino doesn't prefer to get out in front and break the field. It seems to me that if Valentino has the flat out speed, he prefers to maintain a lead of a second or two and not use up his tires. If the times from practice appear to be too close, he seems to like to study his opponent, find out where he can make his move and get in front close to the end. When the times are close, it's definitely more exciting. But if Valentino has the outright speed it's not much different than what Stoner does.

True that WSBK was taking plenty of viewers away from 500s and true that the resurgence of MotoGP has coincided with the career of Valentino Rossi. It's hard to argue that Valentino hasn't had a lot to do with it, because he certainly has. He obviously has his fans who understand the sport and truly adore the way he studies his opponents (as they should, when he does this there isn't much more interesting display in motorsports) so the way he races is part of what has made him and the sport so popular. Although what I think appeals to the lesser educated in motorcycling is more his personality and showmanship. Not a bad thing. I just don't think that there are as many fans of his that know the sport, as well as you and many of his fans on this board, as you may think.

Like I've said, I don't hate Valentino. It would be hard for me to love this sport if I hated Valentino. What I don't have time for is people trying to tell me that Valentino Rossi is bigger than the sport and the only thing that matters. Not saying that's what you're doing here. There are just plenty of people out there (and I'm stealing this line from someone in another thread) "who don't know a clutch from a carburetor" and it so happens their favorite rider is the great 46. Each rider has his own group of these types of fans, unfortunately for Valentino, being as popular as he is, the amount of these fans is far greater to those of other riders. Although to be fair, it's probably proportional.

We agree!! Mostly-great post mate!!

Seems we are now riding on the peace train

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Sep 16 2009, 08:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Won't speak for Gaz but it looks natural to me. Generally, formations like that in this part of the US are formed by erosion from either past rivers or glacial movement. Not sure if Aus had similar glaciation to what we experienced but that looks like formations I've seen locally.
that amazing, ive never seen something eroded so neatly at a right angle. I know it must be natural as no civil engineer would blast the rocks like that, its just ive never seen it before.

where exactly is this place gaz ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 15 2009, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So Talpa, you believe Rossi is bigger than the sport, is the sport or is just a part of the sport?

What is the show?

Is the show the sport, one rider, what?

To me, the show is each and every race, from start to finish, all riders and thus, VR contributes to the show but is not the show. Thought I made that clear in the quoted comments.

Sorry mate been busy with work no time for chit-chat......but I'm back and keeping the thread/dream alive!!!!

Never said VR was bigger than the sport, just that he is the rider responsible for its current level of success, if you disagree with this, then you need to take a much closer look at the masses of yellow in the stands during any MotoGP round anywhere in the world.......this is not bias, simply fact.
So the show , as in all facites of entertainment (TV, Silver Screen, Stage etc), 'usually' depends on its main character for its success, the term success here I use as in commercial/popularity-minorities against of course exist,

And there are supporting roles which contribute highly, but VR is MotoGP's title character at present and has been for a long time now, disagree if you must, but to me this is indisputable. If the show is good then the people will watch, and watch, and watch, and watch again. Since 2000-MotoGP success has been on a steep continual rise, so the show must be good-right?

Very interesting to note, the amazing loss of the Europeon TV audience in 2007, all be it most of these people who switch off when VR doesn't look like winning aren't really true fans at all, but hey life's tough and people are fickle, you need the numbers to get the numbers. Whenever you are on the stage there are critics in the wings, as CS has more than found out......



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 15 2009, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I love the way you accuse me of undying love for CS because you could be just as readily accused for your love of all things Rossi could you not.

Now, where and how is CS part of this debate please enlighten me so that I can than explain to you how and why he has been mentioned. Manlove has nothing to do with it for me.

I admit my liking for VR, so accuse as you will, I have no problems admitting I'm a fan of the GOAT.
but some here like to not really share their true allegiances for fear of ridicule, CS fans have nothing to cheer about at present, so tearing strips of VR seems to be the most natural reaction.

I introduced CS in reaction to your, best bike/package again in 2008 earlier in the thread, and to highlight, even though its becoming now more blatantly obvious, the bias surrounding your seemingly level-headed, analytical comments, which I love by the way!!
I guess I'm just looking for your true colours to be revealed by you, instead of us here prying them out, even though the process is fun!!



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 15 2009, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Matter of opinion really.

I personally would think the way Ducati handled themselves (or Phillip Morris if you prefer) surrounding the Lorenzo saga, then Pedrosa and then the anti-Hayden comments of Suppo was easily the equal of anything Stoner has done.

Certainly Stoner being away is not great for them, but was it not yourself and others who have said that 'he does nothing anyway' so how can he now be accused of doing something that damages a brand that he is accused of doing nothing to support (but I get your point).

Yes, not good but to see him relaxed is good and should make a few people smile, but just as many wishing his return and hoping he fails because many are just that way inclined.

Not just a matter of opinion, Ducati is displeased, as is the motor racing public both in oz and around the world, so another PR nightmare for CS.......I don't wish them on him, nor does anyone here, he just does this all by himself!

Certainly not hoping he fails, hoping he comes back strong actually as I've said, my doubts on this though are coming from my analytical side, I don't hate for the sake of hating, not like some.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 15 2009, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Correct me, but you had little personal respect for him beforer anyway, so why bother trying, or is it riding respect you mean?

Riding respect, I'm trying to hold on to that at present, I personally would have loved to see CV or Andrew Pitt or Garry McCoy or Josh Brooks, achieve the heights of success that CS has. Of recent riders, the before mentioned 4 optimize, in my view, Australian riders. MD came back way too early after suffering 'real' injuries, rode with blood seeping out of his horrendous legs wounds to try and win the WC in 93 on a deadly 500 2-stroke with no TC which had already tried to kill him numerous times, and CS is tired so takes off a couple of months and goes fishing, can you not see how some of us can think this is nothing but outrageous? And frankly I can't see how anyone especially us old school types can still somehow defend/like the public view CS portrays, can't say personally as I don't know him.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 15 2009, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now is where numbers come into it.

If in 2008 Ducati/CS were the best package - why did they not win?

Simple facts and numbers would seem to indicate that the best bike throughout 2008 was the Yamaha/M1 of Rossi as it finished with the most points throughout the season.

Certainly the Ducati may have been faster at some circuits, and Stoner quicker at some, but you have said that a quick lap does not make a better rider (in your discussions with Jumkie) so a quick bike does not make a better bike by extension. I am happy to say (as I already have) that the CS/Ducati combination in 2008 was the better bike for the first 4 rounds, then Rossi got the Yamaha sorted for the Stones whilst Ducati had their usual mid-season lull period (all manufacturers do) and Rossi then got the upper hand through sheer hard work.

You may need to read back through many posts, but you may also be like me and be a tad lazy but I have also said that while I have no issues with him sitting out races whilst ill, he is not earning to many credits with fans - there, I even typed it again for you.

Not true, at least the first 10 rounds, with the exception of mugello, the duck and CS were fastest in 2008, the Honda was also better than the Yam in a lot of these rounds too, Laguna was the Catalyst and CS's loss of the WT in 2008 will go down to being out-psyched by VR, and himself, as many others have in the past. Disagree if you must but I think this is what is commonly thought.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 15 2009, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You may need to read back through many posts, but you may also be like me and be a tad lazy but I have also said that while I have no issues with him sitting out races whilst ill, he is not earning to many credits with fans - there, I even typed it again for you.

An admission! thank god we are getting somewhere, you can get blood from a stone!!!!
By the way, I still love you

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Sep 16 2009, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>that amazing, ive never seen something eroded so neatly at a right angle. I know it must be natural as no civil engineer would blast the rocks like that, its just ive never seen it before.

where exactly is this place gaz ?


Rog,

The rock formations are totally natural and look to be a combination of erosion and rock falls (the square one), but are totally awesome. Actually just up th road was another rock that we were able to ride the bikes into as well - the mate got pics so when I see them may even post. It is a great spot.

The road is just north of Milton on the NSW South Coast and runs to a spot called Porters Creek Dam (there is a lookout above the rocks) and from there we went further bush and cut across back to Nowra.

There are areas like this around the place - will try to get more pics next time.

The first pic is a wrong turn we took just before the one with the rocks and is looking east at the coast, but another fun piece of road.

All up, just what was needed.





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Sep 16 2009, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ahh come on, thats because your biased! I put it more at a soccer score 2-1. I give a point to al for his gaz is fat blast. Sorry it was a stress blast.

Gaz, are you Russel Crowe? or maybe this guy?

Mate, he is a kiwi and I don't throw phones at hotel clerks - so nope




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Sep 16 2009, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>8227:gaz.jpg]

Have actually seen that shot many times and man, he must be huge to make that thing look so tiny (seriously).

Now, as an act in friendship - I see your pic and raise you this.

8228:nude_on_bike_2.jpg]





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 17 2009, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Mate, he is a kiwi and I don't throw phones at hotel clerks - so nope






Have actually seen that shot many times and man, he must be huge to make that thing look so tiny (seriously).

Now, as an act in friendship - I see your pic and raise you this.

8228:nude_on_bike_2.jpg]



Love it mate!!! well raised!!



Gaz

Ffffed that last one up, it was from me......!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 17 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry mate been busy with work no time for chit-chat......but I'm back and keeping the thread/dream alive!!!!

You dont really have to - oh fark, now I am doing it.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 17 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Never said VR was bigger than the sport, just that he is the rider responsible for its current level of success, if you disagree with this, then you need to take a much closer look at the masses of yellow in the stands during any MotoGP round anywhere in the world.......this is not bias, simply fact.
So the show , as in all facites of entertainment (TV, Silver Screen, Stage etc), 'usually' depends on its main character for its success, the term success here I use as in commercial/popularity-minorities against of course exist,

And there are supporting roles which contribute highly, but VR is MotoGP's title character at present and has been for a long time now, disagree if you must, but to me this is indisputable. If the show is good then the people will watch, and watch, and watch, and watch again. Since 2000-MotoGP success has been on a steep continual rise, so the show must be good-right?

Very interesting to note, the amazing loss of the Europeon TV audience in 2007, all be it most of these people who switch off when VR doesn't look like winning aren't really true fans at all, but hey life's tough and people are fickle, you need the numbers to get the numbers. Whenever you are on the stage there are critics in the wings, as CS has more than found out......

Now hope you are sitting down because ....................

I do not now and actually never have denied that Rossi has made a huge impact on the sport in terms of spectator numbers (and of course that means sponsorship dollars), thus my continual comparisons between him and Tiger Woods who is the nearest I can think of in todays market in terms of sport impact.

But where we differ here (and again this is a bias and I will cover it later for you) is that I actually do not support one rider, nor actively wish one rider more success than the other, but I do watch the entire sport for all it offers.

I say this as for me, watching a guy ride of into the distance and battle a machine (ie. CS 2007) is as entertaining for me as watching JL take it to Rossi as he has done often this year. That is not 'blind love' for Stoner but my bias is simply enjoying watching these guys battle the bikes, themselves, the track and the conditions.

Personally I was not bored througout 2007, just as I wasn't through the Doohan era nor do I consider that type of racing less 'watchable' for me personally. I do now and always have accepted the comments that some will find it boring, less inspiring or whatever and I can't argue their opinion on that, just that I do not find in any less entertaining.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 17 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I admit my liking for VR, so accuse as you will, I have no problems admitting I'm a fan of the GOAT.
but some here like to not really share their true allegiances for fear of ridicule, CS fans have nothing to cheer about at present, so tearing strips of VR seems to be the most natural reaction.

Be fair here.

It is not quite there but there is a 'what goes around comes around' and yes some are tearing strips off VR just as many with allegiances to VR tore strips of Hayden, CS etc. It happens as people get defensive or seek an opportunity to 'cyber bully' (as opposed to debate) and it will continue till the days when the internet is replaced with some other technological marvel to make millionaires.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 17 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I introduced CS in reaction to your, best bike/package again in 2008 earlier in the thread, and to highlight, even though its becoming now more blatantly obvious, the bias surrounding your seemingly level-headed, analytical comments, which I love by the way!!

The best bike argument I used was (correct me) based on numbers which are hard irrefutable facts and were within the context of the discussion with V (initially).

You are of the opinion that the CS Ducati (as opposed to Melandri's) was the best bike in 2008 - fine, you are welcome to that opinion but as I say, numbers do not back that opinion up. And as I have said elsewhere (not sure if this thread or not), numbers are facts and can be used to form opinions but by themselves can be misleading (ie. in 2007 the team with the two highest pointscoring riders was Suzuki - waas it the best bike?).

Now, you will also have noted that I stated and will again that the Ducati/CS combination of Stoner was IMO the better package early in the year (proved by championship standings) but it is my opinion that by the end of 2008 Rossi/Yamaha had developed the better package. Thats all it is, an opinion, not fact.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 17 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I guess I'm just looking for your true colours to be revealed by you, instead of us here prying them out, even though the process is fun!!

You want my bias - ok here we go.

The last rider I truly supported and would watch the racing to watch the rider, was Garry McCoy and still do as often as possible. He is everything I like about a racer and to me I admire what he has achieved given the various setbacks he has endured.

I also rate him amongst the most talented Australian racers I have seen - and it may surprise you but Stoner is not in my top few.

Now, my bias is that I prefer the 500cc era and as such I prefer the racing of those days, the fighting of bucking machines that just want to launch a rider to the stratosphere. With the racing I also like the no-nonsense personalities of those days, the aggression shown by each, the toughness of that era, the lack of trickery to make the bikes rideable - the old school stuff.

So (and this is for you) how does Stoner fit in (just remove your feelings and current Stoner situation there for a second if ok) to my liking the old school?

Well to me his approach to racing is ideal, he turns up, rides balls out, finishes, has a whinge or whatnot and goes back to his camper to get ready to relax before the next hit. He is 'old school' in his approach and not very media savvy just as the old era weren't (there were exceptions).

The fact he is an Aussie actually means little to me as I have openly defended Biaggi as well (personal experiences there) and will continue to do so for other riders as needed. Just that at the moment the 'heat' is all on Stoner and in many cases I think it is unfairly so at this stage (ie. until we know more of the illness).



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 17 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not just a matter of opinion, Ducati is displeased, as is the motor racing public both in oz and around the world, so another PR nightmare for CS.......I don't wish them on him, nor does anyone here, he just does this all by himself!

Haven't heard to much displeasure and don't read the Aussie rags (only good for one thing) so won't challenge your comments in total.

But as for Ducati's displeasure it would be interesting (as I have asked elsewhere) to find out who really drove the 'buy Lorenzo' approach (ie. Phillip Morris or Ducati or both).

But I will say that I do think it unfortunate the article regarding Stoner's whereabouts etc as within the current climate it was not really an 'ideal' look.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 17 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Certainly not hoping he fails, hoping he comes back strong actually as I've said, my doubts on this though are coming from my analytical side, I don't hate for the sake of hating, not like some.

Nice dig by the way.

I doubt in all honesty if anyone wants him to fail as I do think people realise that in some ways the two man show has been boring (oops sorry, that word) given it is the same factory involved and people want variety


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 17 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Riding respect, I'm trying to hold on to that at present, I personally would have loved to see CV or Andrew Pitt or Garry McCoy or Josh Brooks, achieve the heights of success that CS has. Of recent riders, the before mentioned 4 optimize, in my view, Australian riders. MD came back way too early after suffering 'real' injuries, rode with blood seeping out of his horrendous legs wounds to try and win the WC in 93 on a deadly 500 2-stroke with no TC which had already tried to kill him numerous times, and CS is tired so takes off a couple of months and goes fishing, can you not see how some of us can think this is nothing but outrageous? And frankly I can't see how anyone especially us old school types can still somehow defend/like the public view CS portrays, can't say personally as I don't know him.

Geez, don't mention Brooksey in the UK at the moment - he is persona non grata to many in their racing circles give his recent troubles.

Mate, and this is serious at the moment and not intended to argue but here goes.

I do struggle to see how people can have the attitude they do without knowing the full facts of the situation and I say that as someone who's family has experienced members with mental illness and/or depression which resulted in suicide, thus I take a different more holistic approach as I will not judge until facts are know. That said, I can see how and why people are taking your (and others) approach but I cannot accept or agree with it for the reason I mention.

Years ago I would have been on the bandwagon but I the experiences of my family have changed my approach and now I much prefer to make sound judgements based up on facts - and at this stage there are no hard facts either way.

Does that mean your approach is wrong, not for you so no, nor does it mean my approach is wrong as it is the one I am taking.

Now, if in the future it turns out that the absence was a 'dummy spit' (and it will need credible sources) than I will criticise Stoner as he will deserve it, but only if it turns out that way, not before.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 17 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not true, at least the first 10 rounds, with the exception of mugello, the duck and CS were fastest in 2008, the Honda was also better than the Yam in a lot of these rounds too, Laguna was the Catalyst and CS's loss of the WT in 2008 will go down to being out-psyched by VR, and himself, as many others have in the past. Disagree if you must but I think this is what is commonly thought.

Just got to say this again - a fast bike does not make a race winner, just like one fast lap does not make a better rider (am sure we agree there).

As for the psyche out side, I do not think CS has been outpsyched by Rossi, but happy to agree that he is his own worst enemy as I do (and have said) believe that.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 17 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>An admission! thank god we are getting somewhere, you can get blood from a stone!!!!
By the way, I still love you

Mate, if you read many of my posts in the manner in which they are intended (ie. remove any search for 'digs' at riders) I make lots of admissions but just as I am often accused of 'twisting' or 'reading into thing' the affliction can apply to others.

And as an aside - if you really want to search you will find numerous comments from me regarding my thoughts as to which was the better rider CS vs CV.

Pleasure discussing with you.





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 16 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>We agree!! Mostly-great post mate!!

Seems we are now riding on the peace train
Cheers. Pints to be had next time we're at the same race.