Rossi speaks out over Lorenzo contract

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 12 2009, 04:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But your comments do raise an interesting point given the ongoing discussion around 'best' bike.

Should the 'best' bike be an easy bike to ride by comparison to the others in that field?

Gaz
Ease of use is definitely one factor in determining the "best" bike... obviously an easy to ride bike which is slow is a loser, but a powerful, competitive bike which is also user-friendly has an advantage over an unrefined or challenging mount.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 11 2009, 10:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Exact;y, but there appears to be many diverse opinions although the post you quoted was in direct response to a statement saying that the 2008 M1 was not an easy bike to ride as indicated by JL's crashes, thus I kjust threw that line out there.Gaz
Gaz i am sure you can see the big difference in Loronzo's highside crashes and Stoner's loosing front end crashes but again i am not debating that Ducati is easy to ride or not what i am trying to say is that lot of people think that M1 was easy to ride in 08 season but Lorenzo's highside crashes tells different story.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Sep 11 2009, 10:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gaz i am sure you can see the big difference in Loronzo's highside crashes and Stoner's loosing front end crashes but again i am not debating that Ducati is easy to ride or not what i am trying to say is that lot of people think that M1 was easy to ride in 08 season but Lorenzo's highside crashes tells different story.

Absolutely but as I said I tend to 'rule out' the first year crashes of a rookie as it is their learning year.

But, if we look at this year, JL has lost the front far more than in 2008 yes, there have been highsides for both at Laguna), but in general the race crashes have been front end loses, just as CS in 2008.

My thoughts are that accidents do not necessarily indicate a bad bike, a difficult bike or a good bike as most accidents are caused by teh rider pushing beyond the limits, which may not always be design limits.




Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Sep 11 2009, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...............J4 - I usually agree with your take on things but this statement is absurd. Yamaha themselves have acknowledged that their bike is on the mature side of the development curve and will have to be majorly overhauled to be competitive with the new engine rules AND the boys at HRC seem to have a leg up in this regard. Yamaha has show NO inclination towards cost cutting or stepping on anyones toes... they have made savvy personnel decisions which will see three of the five dominant riders (assuming Spies wins WSBK and makes the jump) on their machinery in '10. Everything Yamaha has done has been win-win for them.

I understand your point but I can't help having my doubts about yamaha's intentions and decisions. They seem so keen on trying to secure all possible winning situations -- rather than choosing one over the other -- that I wouldn't be surprised if they turn out as the big losers in 2 years time, or even less.

About the M1 potential to stay the best bike for the next 2-3 years, I think it is (or better, it could be) very concrete just because of the cost cutting and reduced testing. Not so much time and money to introduce revolutionary new designs for anybody (with the possible exception of Ducati if Philip Morris back them up with sufficient funding).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 10 2009, 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Have to totally disagree with you.

A 'pissed off' Rossi has not been the 'best show in Motogp since 2004' but he has contributed to what has been some great shows, some good shows and some piss poor ordinary shows. The statement you make alludes to Rossi being the sport and he is not - he is a part of it.


Gaz

Fzrck Gaz this is utter BS mate....I have to disagree here, I would say that CS in 2007 made the Motogp more Piss-poor than Rossi could ever have dreamed of, 07 was boredom in copious amounts unless you enjoy gobbling CS's knob, sure VR has had the odd boring win, but in the whole grand scheme it impossible to link VR's champ wins or any part of them with the term Piss poor shows.

Mate I give it to you for your undying love and support and interesting manipulations during debate to favour CS but come on......you simply can't keep hanging here, currently CS is a fallen champ-if he returns to the top step again and stays there multiple times, then we can have this debate. But right now he is Ducati's worst PR nightmare, being in shots like the fishing one I saw earlier aren't too clever, when you are suppose to be contesting the Premier class championship for yourself, your family, all of your fans, sponsors and Ducati. He looks really crook to me too, the trip out there from Tamworth would have been quite exhausting for someone who is Chronically Fatigued from all of Travel and pressure of MotoGP.

It was hard to respect him before, but now its getting silly. I really hope he comes back strong for the sake of Motogp, but right now I have my doubts.

2008- Ducati and CS were still the best package-undeniably. Times, prove it, race results don't. This wasn't because he wasn't the fastest but he succumbed to the pressure, simple, but I'm sure you'll disagree. And his behavior now is enforcing this theory. Currently this is just how it is, even MichM admit CS is giving his fans nothing to cheer about!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 14 2009, 03:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fzrck Gaz this is utter BS mate....I have to disagree here, I would say that CS in 2007 made the Motogp more Piss-poor than Rossi could ever have dreamed of, 07 was boredom in copious amounts unless you enjoy gobbling CS's knob, sure VR has had the odd boring win, but in the whole grand scheme it impossible to link VR's champ wins or any part of them with the term Piss poor shows.

Mate I give it to you for your undying love and support and interesting manipulations during debate to favour CS but come on......you simply can't keep hanging here, currently CS is a fallen champ-if he returns to the top step again and stays there multiple times, then we can have this debate. But right now he is Ducati's worst PR nightmare, being in shots like the fishing one I saw earlier aren't too clever, when you are suppose to be contesting the Premier class championship for yourself, your family, all of your fans, sponsors and Ducati. He looks really crook to me too, the trip out there from Tamworth would have been quite exhausting for someone who is Chronically Fatigued from all of Travel and pressure of MotoGP.

It was hard to respect him before, but now its getting silly. I really hope he comes back strong for the sake of Motogp, but right now I have my doubts.

2008- Ducati and CS were still the best package-undeniably. Times, prove it, race results don't. This wasn't because he wasn't the fastest but he succumbed to the pressure, simple, but I'm sure you'll disagree. And his behavior now is enforcing this theory. Currently this is just how it is, even MichM admit CS is giving his fans nothing to cheer about!!!

I will also go against Gaz’s opinion and state that a ‘Pissed Off’ Rossi (or a Happy Rossi for that matter) has been the ‘Best in Show’ since 2000… and has stayed there too all the way till today. Let see, all fights from front runners have been Rossi against “You name it”… Rossi against Abe, Rossi against Barros, Rossi against Biaggi, Rossi against Capirossi, Rossi against Criville, Rossi against Dovizioso, Rossi against Elias, Rossi against Gibernau, Rossi against Hayden, Rossi against Lorenzo, Rossi against Mccoy, Rossi against Melandri, Rossi against Pedrosa, Rossi against Roberts Jr, Rossi against Stoner, Rossi against Tamada, Rossi against Ukawa, Rossi against Vermeulen, etc. It has been at least 4 Generations and keeps on going… Bring on Bautista, Simoncelli, Barbera!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 14 2009, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2008- Ducati and CS were still the best package-undeniably. Times, prove it, race results don't. This wasn't because he wasn't the fastest but he succumbed to the pressure, simple, but I'm sure you'll disagree. And his behavior now is enforcing this theory. Currently this is just how it is, even MichM admit CS is giving his fans nothing to cheer about!!!
I do agree (with myself ) that casey is not giving his fans, or anyone else, much to work with just at present. I make no claim to being very lateral, but I see 3 main possibilities at the moment; he won't come back, he will come back and be diminished, or he will come back and be really fast again. Until he does or doesn't come back, I see little point in speculating further.

I actually don't agree with you about 2008 apart from rossi obviously riding rather well; they did get the ducati going again midseason apparently by ditching the 2008 motor and going back to the 2007 motor, but the ducati was fairly horrible for several races early in the season. Whether casey's input contributed to the wrong direction has not been revealed to my knowledge. After laguna seca 2008, an admittedly largely magnificent victory by valentino, casey basically needed to win every race to retain the world championship, particularly with lorenzo and pedrosa banged up or absent and hence even less likely to take points away from valentino than if fully fit. If stoner did put the bike down in the succeeding 2 races due to pressure for which a case can be made it is still arguable from my perspective anyway that this could have been due to the championship situation rather than jedi mind tricks etc by rossi. Valentino himself has managed to put his bike down a few times this season.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 14 2009, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fzrck Gaz this is utter BS mate....I have to disagree here, I would say that CS in 2007 made the Motogp more Piss-poor than Rossi could ever have dreamed of, 07 was boredom in copious amounts unless you enjoy gobbling CS's knob, sure VR has had the odd boring win, but in the whole grand scheme it impossible to link VR's champ wins or any part of them with the term Piss poor shows.

1.sorry talpa but this statement has one big flaw in it.

you blame stoner for 2007?
blame for the "boredom in copious amounts" of the 2007 season lies squarely on the shoulders of the riders who were not fast and consistent enough to challenge stoner and make him scrap for the title.

2. agreed, the only one IMO that comes close to a foregone conclusion before the season even started was 2005 (IMO).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 14 2009, 03:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would say that CS in 2007 made the Motogp more Piss-poor than Rossi could ever have dreamed of
But Valentino winning 11 of 16 races in 2002 was wildly entertaining.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Sep 15 2009, 03:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But Valentino winning 11 of 16 races in 2002 was wildly entertaining.

Not Wildly, but still entertaining, thanks for your usual alternate view with more than a pinch of sarcasm-closet. 02 compared to 07?? you can do better than this......

The age of the 4 strokes with 2 strokes still out on track, Barros put up a few good scuffles that year as did Gibernau and Garry Mcoy. As is the way with VR whether by planning, luck or showmanship he has always entertained. Throughout his career, VR has never made a habit of getting out in front and dominating, he has chosen to fight closer battles, which has of course led to greater entertainment and has more than aided Motogp's current levels of success. Before VR Motogp was starting to lose out to WSBK, this is a fact.
Even if you hate him you have to admit hes never been boring, if he was explain his popularity?

I'm sure you'll disagree and find some other way to be critical as you always do with VR, I would expect nothing else. Lucky for us opinions like yours are in the minority, but hey the masses aren't always right, they do help pay the bills though

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 14 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not Wildly, but still entertaining, thanks for your usual alternate view with more than a pinch of sarcasm-closet. 02 compared to 07?? you can do better than this......

The age of the 4 strokes with 2 strokes still out on track, Barros put up a few good scuffles that year as did Gibernau and Garry Mcoy. As is the way with VR whether by planning, luck or showmanship he has always entertained. Throughout his career, VR has never made a habit of getting out in front and dominating, he has chosen to fight closer battles, which has of course led to greater entertainment and has more than aided Motogp's current levels of success. Before VR Motogp was starting to lose out to WSBK, this is a fact.
Even if you hate him you have to admit hes never been boring, if he was explain his popularity?

I'm sure you'll disagree and find some other way to be critical as you always do with VR, I would expect nothing else. Lucky for us opinions like yours are in the minority, but hey the masses aren't always right, they do help pay the bills though
Gibernau never gave Valentino anything close to a dice in 2002, he never even finished on the podium. And McCoy was hurt most of the year, only finishing in the top ten three times, no higher than ninth. The switch to four strokes was exciting right up until the first race when their development had already well-surpassed the 500s, making that storyline relatively minimal. Barros made it interesting at the end of the year. As any racing fan, you have to wonder what could have been if Barros had a 211V all year.

It is true that Valentino doesn't prefer to get out in front and break the field. It seems to me that if Valentino has the flat out speed, he prefers to maintain a lead of a second or two and not use up his tires. If the times from practice appear to be too close, he seems to like to study his opponent, find out where he can make his move and get in front close to the end. When the times are close, it's definitely more exciting. But if Valentino has the outright speed it's not much different than what Stoner does.

True that WSBK was taking plenty of viewers away from 500s and true that the resurgence of MotoGP has coincided with the career of Valentino Rossi. It's hard to argue that Valentino hasn't had a lot to do with it, because he certainly has. He obviously has his fans who understand the sport and truly adore the way he studies his opponents (as they should, when he does this there isn't much more interesting display in motorsports) so the way he races is part of what has made him and the sport so popular. Although what I think appeals to the lesser educated in motorcycling is more his personality and showmanship. Not a bad thing. I just don't think that there are as many fans of his that know the sport, as well as you and many of his fans on this board, as you may think.

Like I've said, I don't hate Valentino. It would be hard for me to love this sport if I hated Valentino. What I don't have time for is people trying to tell me that Valentino Rossi is bigger than the sport and the only thing that matters. Not saying that's what you're doing here. There are just plenty of people out there (and I'm stealing this line from someone in another thread) "who don't know a clutch from a carburetor" and it so happens their favorite rider is the great 46. Each rider has his own group of these types of fans, unfortunately for Valentino, being as popular as he is, the amount of these fans is far greater to those of other riders. Although to be fair, it's probably proportional.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 14 2009, 08:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fzrck Gaz this is utter BS mate....I have to disagree here, I would say that CS in 2007 made the Motogp more Piss-poor than Rossi could ever have dreamed of, 07 was boredom in copious amounts unless you enjoy gobbling CS's knob, sure VR has had the odd boring win, but in the whole grand scheme it impossible to link VR's champ wins or any part of them with the term Piss poor shows.

So Talpa, you believe Rossi is bigger than the sport, is the sport or is just a part of the sport?

What is the show?

Is the show the sport, one rider, what?

To me, the show is each and every race, from start to finish, all riders and thus, VR contributes to the show but is not the show. Thought I made that clear in the quoted comments.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 14 2009, 08:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Mate I give it to you for your undying love and support and interesting manipulations during debate to favour CS but come on......you simply can't keep hanging here, currently CS is a fallen champ-if he returns to the top step again and stays there multiple times, then we can have this debate.

I love the way you accuse me of undying love for CS because you could be just as readily accused for your love of all things Rossi could you not.

Now, where and how is CS part of this debate please enlighten me so that I can than explain to you how and why he has been mentioned. Manlove has nothing to do with it for me.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 14 2009, 08:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But right now he is Ducati's worst PR nightmare, being in shots like the fishing one I saw earlier aren't too clever, when you are suppose to be contesting the Premier class championship for yourself, your family, all of your fans, sponsors and Ducati. He looks really crook to me too, the trip out there from Tamworth would have been quite exhausting for someone who is Chronically Fatigued from all of Travel and pressure of MotoGP.

Matter of opinion really.

I personally would think the way Ducati handled themselves (or Phillip Morris if you prefer) surrounding the Lorenzo saga, then Pedrosa and then the anti-Hayden comments of Suppo was easily the equal of anything Stoner has done.

Certainly Stoner being away is not great for them, but was it not yourself and others who have said that 'he does nothing anyway' so how can he now be accused of doing something that damages a brand that he is accused of doing nothing to support (but I get your point).

Yes, not good but to see him relaxed is good and should make a few people smile, but just as many wishing his return and hoping he fails because many are just that way inclined.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 14 2009, 08:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It was hard to respect him before, but now its getting silly. I really hope he comes back strong for the sake of Motogp, but right now I have my doubts.

Correct me, but you had little personal respect for him beforer anyway, so why bother trying, or is it riding respect you mean?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Sep 14 2009, 08:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2008- Ducati and CS were still the best package-undeniably. Times, prove it, race results don't. This wasn't because he wasn't the fastest but he succumbed to the pressure, simple, but I'm sure you'll disagree. And his behavior now is enforcing this theory. Currently this is just how it is, even MichM admit CS is giving his fans nothing to cheer about!!!

Now is where numbers come into it.

If in 2008 Ducati/CS were the best package - why did they not win?

Simple facts and numbers would seem to indicate that the best bike throughout 2008 was the Yamaha/M1 of Rossi as it finished with the most points throughout the season.

Certainly the Ducati may have been faster at some circuits, and Stoner quicker at some, but you have said that a quick lap does not make a better rider (in your discussions with Jumkie) so a quick bike does not make a better bike by extension. I am happy to say (as I already have) that the CS/Ducati combination in 2008 was the better bike for the first 4 rounds, then Rossi got the Yamaha sorted for the Stones whilst Ducati had their usual mid-season lull period (all manufacturers do) and Rossi then got the upper hand through sheer hard work.

You may need to read back through many posts, but you may also be like me and be a tad lazy but I have also said that while I have no issues with him sitting out races whilst ill, he is not earning to many credits with fans - there, I even typed it again for you.







Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Sep 14 2009, 01:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I will also go against Gaz’s opinion and state that a ‘Pissed Off’ Rossi (or a Happy Rossi for that matter) has been the ‘Best in Show’ since 2000… and has stayed there too all the way till today. Let see, all fights from front runners have been Rossi against “You name it”… Rossi against Abe, Rossi against Barros, Rossi against Biaggi, Rossi against Capirossi, Rossi against Criville, Rossi against Dovizioso, Rossi against Elias, Rossi against Gibernau, Rossi against Hayden, Rossi against Lorenzo, Rossi against Mccoy, Rossi against Melandri, Rossi against Pedrosa, Rossi against Roberts Jr, Rossi against Stoner, Rossi against Tamada, Rossi against Ukawa, Rossi against Vermeulen, etc. It has been at least 4 Generations and keeps on going… Bring on Bautista, Simoncelli, Barbera!



So V, just as I asked Talpa.

Is Rossi the show or a contributor to the show?

For me, the show is the sport, the race, all riders all bikes, not just one.

Yes he has been a major contributor but is he the show?

See the difference and you will see that I am looking at a far bigger picture of the show.





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 15 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So Talpa, you believe Rossi is bigger than the sport, is the sport or is just a part of the sport?

What is the show?

Is the show the sport, one rider, what?

To me, the show is each and every race, from start to finish, all riders and thus, VR contributes to the show but is not the show. Thought I made that clear in the quoted comments.


Gaz

Gaz i think Talpa never said that Rossi is bigger than sports, what he is trying to say that Rossi is the biggest contributor to the sports in last 10 to 15 years and no one even come close to what he has done for the popularity of the sports. You guys need to give Rossi credit where its due.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Sep 15 2009, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gaz i think Talpa never said that Rossi is bigger than sports, what he is trying to say that Rossi is the biggest contributor to the sports in last 10 to 15 years and no one even come close to what he has done for the popularity of the sports. You guys need to give Rossi credit where its due.

If he is I cannot see that as he uses the term 'The Show', but hey it could well be a matter of interpretation.

As for credit, well I do and will continue to do so, just that my degrees differ.

If you read what I have said I refer to the show as being all contributors and certainly Rossi plays his part whereas others refer to Rossi as 'the show'. For mine, without all the other riders in the races there is no show so to refer or allude to him being 'the show' is for mine doing a massive disservice to all other contributors whom all play their part.

Now as for giving Rossi credit I am happy to do so, but I will try not to make statements that would indicate he is the sport, nor that he is solely responsible for it's current state, but certainly happy to agree that the Rossi phenomenon is a large contributor to the publicity of the sport.

Now Inam, I actually don't see to many people failing to give Rossi credit (certainly some is muted, others is restrained) but what I do see is many people failing to acknowledge other contributors and let us use Talpa's 2007 reference as an example to illustrate the point.

Talpa (amongst others) refers to 2007 as having been boredom central because Stoner was able to obliterate the field and win races by 10 seconds whilst walking away. He obviously like others finds this boring to watch (not sure whether he means week in week out or even a singular race) whereas I can enjoy that as much as a lose race, but each their own and we all have preferences.

Then we have Rossi whom if we are to believe the mass media often would refrain from walking away (as his skill would have allowed) in order to provide closer racing for the fans. We acknowledge that it made for better viewing and there were times when Rossi made mistakes and underestimated other riders so did not always win.

Now, here is my point.

Without those other riders Rossi would have been walking away and thus to remove these other riders from being 'the show' is a disservice to the roles they played and continue to do so today.

To remove Stoner/Gibernau/Biaggi/Pedrosa/Puig etc from the equation removes the 'bad guy' to Rossis' 'good guy' which is an aspect of the theatre of the sport that draws people.

So, nope, I do not see people reducing Rossi's contribution but see people not acknowledging the contribution of others.






Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Sep 15 2009, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gaz i think Talpa never said that Rossi is bigger than sports, what he is trying to say that Rossi is the biggest contributor to the sports in last 10 to 15 years and no one even come close to what he has done for the popularity of the sports. You guys need to give Rossi credit where its due.


Oops, sorry Inam I could have put this in the other reply but won't just for the fun of it, to increase my post count and to shitstir/fishing (all for fun), so dont take it to seriously.


Bet the factories would argue about the biggest contributor as generally speaking that would mean investment which of course means dollars and as we know, VR doesn't pay to compete so in that aspect nope, not the biggest contributor. But I do realise the way you meant it and perhaps asset is a better term to use to describe Rossi in relation to the sport at the moment (that is assuming contributor and asset have similar meanings dependent on cultures).

I am very happy to admit and would back the argument/discussion that VR has heightened the profile of MGP worldwide as he transcends language/culture with his 'persona'. This is not the first time I have agreed to this either as I oftne have compared Rossi's impact on MGP with that of Tiger Woods in golf as I see them as parralelling phenomenoms.

Speaking purely from an Australian perspective here (sorry Talpa and others, jump in anytime to correct).

Whether there is an Australian competing or not, MGP is nearly always mentioned in mainstream news sports bulletins because of Rossi and often with commenst 'Valentineo Rossi finished second in the xxxx'. Yes, even when he does not win they will mention him over and above the efofrts of many others from the same event (as an example, I saw one bulletin that led the report with Rossi's crash).

So yes, he has done huge amounts and he should get due credit for that (and IMO here - he does) as without him and his influence it is fair to wonder where the sport would be in terms of acceptance within the mainstream media.

I do not intentially diminish Rossi's record (fark - you can't) nor do I intentially diminish anything he has achieved, but I will debate the role played by others and will seek equality if/when/where it is required.





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 14 2009, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So V, just as I asked Talpa.

Is Rossi the show or a contributor to the show?

For me, the show is the sport, the race, all riders all bikes, not just one.

Yes he has been a major contributor but is he the show?

See the difference and you will see that I am looking at a far bigger picture of the show.

Gaz

Gaz, for this great Sport which is MotoGP… "A pissed-off Rossi has been the best show"… Non other Rider has come close, goes way back to 2000 I think, when Biaggi got the 'Finger' on a one hand turn from Rossi after pushing him out of track elbowing him... That was 'A pissed off Rossi!'.

This comes on and on till today, so it does not mean 'he is the Sport', but he is the Best in Show definitely!

The 'Show is the Sport', Rossi is the Best in the Sport, therefore 'The Best in Show'!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 14 2009, 10:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I do not intentially diminish Rossi's record (fark - you can't) nor do I intentially diminish anything he has achieved, but I will debate the role played by others and will seek equality if/when/where it is required.

Gaz

Here's where 'Equal' is so hard to find from other Riders not having same numbers and achievements to back them up… They need to get a lot of steps still, just to climb a bit higher in the 'All Times All Riders Chart', making it hard to see them 'Equally'. I am not making any of them less, just that any of them needs to do a lot more! That plus the PR puts Rossi, not above the Sport, but simply at the top, we need no more!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Sep 15 2009, 04:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The 'Show is the Sport', Rossi is the Best in the Sport, therefore 'The Best in Show'!

The 'best in show' is different to 'the show' in it's purest definition and being fair 'the show' is a matter of interpretation and dependent on one's viewpoint (ie. to a fan, Rossi is 'the show', to others he may be 'best in show') snd your use of teh 'best in show' term does provide another insight

No problems with that and hardly arguable at the moment (but happy to argue degrees just to keep the thread alive and Talpa happy)


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Sep 15 2009, 04:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Here's where 'Equal' is so hard to find from other Riders not having same numbers and achievements to back them up… They need to get a lot of steps still, just to climb a bit higher in the 'All Times All Riders Chart', making it hard to see them 'Equally'. I am not making any of them less, just that any of them needs to do a lot more! That plus the PR puts Rossi, not above the Sport, but simply at the top, we need no more!


Totally agree with regards to comparison/equality and the difficulty (yes - seriously) and that is why I often do it for the fun by using the same source for numbers and twisting them to show how it can work both ways and how if one bases everything on numbers (which are facts) often other factors can well be overlooked. See, to me number (ie. race wins, championships, fastest lap etc) are facts, but which bike is best, who is the best rider etc are opinions (which can be based on fact but are not facts) and it is here where many arguments get hung up.

I think it fair to say that you and I enjoy the numbers game a little (hey, I am out of work so bored and have time ) and to me, often opinions are not borne out by numbers or can be challenged with numbers, thus I waste time and gave fun.

The difficulty for many of these guys is that for them to get the 'numbers' that you allude to, will require the likes of VR to be out of the sport at which time the comparison becomes meaningless (just as it does comparing VR to those of before). The situation really is a no win as if the numbers are produced in the current era many search for reasons/excuses to explain the anomoly (ie. someone else winning) and if the numbers get produced post-Rossi people will say 'ah, but of Rossi was around'.

Being totally honest I actually feel quite sorry for the young racers of today and many who's careers have parralleled Rossi because many are sublime talents in their own rights, but were simply wrong place/wrong time in terms of career timing.

Now, as to PR it is hard to argue but (oh god, can hear the screams already), should the PR capability of a person influence there 'rating' in discussions relating to motorcycle racing abilities as opposed to their impacts on the sport?


See, I look at it this way and will use the same comparison I have before.

Rossi is to motorcycle racing what Tiger Woods is to golf, yet people don't seem to put so much emphasis on Tiger's PR activities so much as his golfing abilities and wins.





EDIT: Threw in some smilies so people realise this is just fun.


Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 15 2009, 04:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oops, sorry Inam I could have put this in the other reply but won't just for the fun of it, to increase my post count and to shitstir/fishing (all for fun), so dont take it to seriously.


Bet the factories would argue about the biggest contributor as generally speaking that would mean investment which of course means dollars and as we know, VR doesn't pay to compete so in that aspect nope, not the biggest contributor. But I do realise the way you meant it and perhaps asset is a better term to use to describe Rossi in relation to the sport at the moment (that is assuming contributor and asset have similar meanings dependent on cultures).

I am very happy to admit and would back the argument/discussion that VR has heightened the profile of MGP worldwide as he transcends language/culture with his 'persona'. This is not the first time I have agreed to this either as I oftne have compared Rossi's impact on MGP with that of Tiger Woods in golf as I see them as parralelling phenomenoms.

Speaking purely from an Australian perspective here (sorry Talpa and others, jump in anytime to correct).

Whether there is an Australian competing or not, MGP is nearly always mentioned in mainstream news sports bulletins because of Rossi and often with commenst 'Valentineo Rossi finished second in the xxxx'. Yes, even when he does not win they will mention him over and above the efofrts of many others from the same event (as an example, I saw one bulletin that led the report with Rossi's crash).

So yes, he has done huge amounts and he should get due credit for that (and IMO here - he does) as without him and his influence it is fair to wonder where the sport would be in terms of acceptance within the mainstream media.

I do not intentially diminish Rossi's record (fark - you can't) nor do I intentially diminish anything he has achieved, but I will debate the role played by others and will seek equality if/when/where it is required.





Gaz
Gaz you know exactly in what sense i meant that but for rest of the post i completely agree with you.I mean as a Rossi fan i tend to give him more credit compare to any other rider and i think you probably do the same as well with Stoner and in the end both sides think we are giving to much credit to these riders.

As far as Stoner concern i use to give him hardly any credit after 07 season but when i saw riders like Marco and Nicky are struggling on ductai i started giving him alot more credit for his achievements, which clearly shows its not all bike guy has got some talent as well.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Sep 15 2009, 06:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gaz you know exactly in what sense i meant that but for rest of the post i completely agree with you.I mean as a Rossi fan i tend to give him more credit compare to any other rider and i think you probably do the same as well with Stoner and in the end both sides think we are giving to much credit to these riders.

As far as Stoner concern i use to give him hardly any credit after 07 season but when i saw riders like Marco and Nicky are struggling on ductai i started giving him alot more credit for his achievements, which clearly shows its not all bike guy has got some talent as well.


Oops, my bad.

I did originally have in there in brackets that I had no doubts about the context you mean, but I must have deleted it - sorry.





Gaz