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Rossi: "I paid too much for last year"

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Possibility of Marquez playing around with Rossi & Iannone possessing superior pace, allowing the man with the 4th best pace in the race to finish 2nd and the man with probably the 2nd best pace in the race, Rossi, 4th. (I actually did a lap-by-lap analysis of this and tried to post it in the "Will Lorenzo defend his title" thread but it didn't allow me for some reason :p If he had the second best pace, why didnt he beat Ianonne once Marquez cleared off in search of Lorenzo

+

Strong possibility of Rossi being denied the chance to chase after Lorenzo by Marquez, I know Rossi was slow in the beginning and was passed but he had just set his FL and pretty much equalled Lorenzo, despite having to pass Marquez, on the lap before the fireworks started
Lets just say you are right and Marquez was ....... with Rossi and had more pace, where do you think Rossi finish's had nothing happened and the race went off as normal

+

strong possibility of Marquez ensuring a Lorenzo victory at Valencia by not passing and only fighting once during the race, re-passing his teammate

=
Absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever

a probable outcome of > 5 points advantage to Lorenzo relative to Rossi outside of his control.
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Once again lets assume your superstitions are valid, 5 points puts them in a tie which Lorenzo still wins championship on superior number of wins
 
GeniusAtTwerk said:
Well I am biased of course but I'm pretty certain it makes much, much less sense. So, Rossi's plan all along was to deliberately take out Marquez? Or was it an accident and he was planning to battle Marquez for 18 laps bc it would benefit him somehow? This is literally the last scenario I would think is the actual truth.
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My personal opinion is that MM deliberately didn't make any hard moves on contenders at PI and took the win when that was on offer.

Also imo at Sepang after Rossi's in retrospect patently ill advised and again imo petulant attempt to intimidate a rider quite unlikely to be successfully intimidated by off track means, MM decided to race him very hard, but legally, should they become involved in a battle for position in the race. The net result was that Rossi got his best possible result, a third at Sepang, just as 4th was his best result at Valencia. A second at Valencia would have sufficed for JL had Rossi not made certain of 3rd at Sepang by taking out MM, whether or not he planned to do so before the race or only as the race proceeded, btw.
 
michaelm said:
Simple. I disagree with most of what you say, for which you gave no evidence but conjecture anyway, but if Rossi is fast enough he keeps Lorenzo behind him at PI and Sepang and all else is irrelevant, as some bloke called Marc Marquez actually said. If you want to win a world championship you can't rely on what 3rd parties may or may not do, and as a Mick Doohan fan I have no desire to take away Wayne Rainey's 3rd championship or to award Mick a sixth, despite Mick having a much more dominant lead that year than VR had in 2015. People who followed the sport back then much more commonly actually understood the sport.

Marc Marquez crashed out of 6 races prior to PI by trying to win every race by leading every lap, and arguably started this habit at PI 2014. You may remember there was a mandatory tyre change at PI 2013 because no rider on any tyre was considered able to last over half race distance.

Your argument would seem to basically amount to MM being obliged to crash out of PI 2015, a race he didn't finish at either of his 2 previous attempts in the premier class, because it would have helped Valentino.

He won the ....... race. No more can be required of him by anyone. End of story.
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What evidence would you suggest I provide proving Marquez was helping Lorenzo win the title? That's what I believe in at the moment and I've already explained the events that have led me to this conclusion.

"but if Rossi is fast enough he keeps Lorenzo behind him at PI and Sepang and all else is irrelevant"

It's obviously not that simple if there is another rider with at least equal, if not superior pace who is deliberately impeding you, even if you had better pace, as Rossi did compared to Lorenzo in PI. At Sepang, well yeah, Rossi passed and behind Lorenzo after lap 4, what kind of determining factor is that when discussing who deserves the title.

"Your argument would seem to basically amount to MM being obliged to crash out of PI 2015, a race he didn't finish at either of his 2 previous attempts in the premier class, because it would have helped Valentino."

Unbelievable strawmanning, well done. Considering I felt Marquez could've won that race by getting in front pretty early (not necessarily from the start) and winning by 2-3 seconds (with Rossi probably 2nd), how would've he been more likely to crash compared to the actual race where he battled somebody almost constantly?
 
So Rossi not showing more pace than Lorenzo in the last few races isn't at all an important factor when discussing where he finished?

And really if one rider is so good that he can decide whether or not you can win the title because your pace is .... do you actually deserve to be champ?
 
povol said:
If he had the second best pace, why didnt he beat Ianonne once Marquez cleared off in search of Lorenzo

Lets just say you are right and Marquez was ....... with Rossi and had more pace, where do you think Rossi finish's had nothing happened and the race went off as normal

Absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever

Once again lets assume your superstitions are valid, 5 points puts them in a tie which Lorenzo still wins championship on superior number of wins
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I said probably the 2nd best pace, it was close between him and Iannone, and Iannone had a huge advantage on the straight which obviously was a big factor.

That's actually really hard to gauge tbh, Pedrosa and Lorenzo went strong while Rossi struggled, then Marquez went wide, then after 3-4 laps Rossi passed Marquez and equalled Lorenzos time then on the next lap the battle started. I think there was a good chance Rossi would've been able to at least stay close to Lorenzo throughout the race.

Ok, cool.

You missed the >, meaning I think it's probable these amounted to more than 5 point swing.
 
GeniusAtTwerk said:
1. No, I meant that if Marquez possessed superior pace than what he showed (something in the ballpark of Pedrosa), him staying back to mess with Rossi to fight with him was a factor outside Rossis control.

2. Are you suggesting there is a possibility Rossi stayed back to battle with Marquez on purpose, while his only title rival was disappearing in the distance?
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1. So Rossi was not in control of this situation? Did someone posses his machine that we're not aware of?

2. You've arbitrarily assumed Marquez's pace is dishonest whilst making the opposite assumption for Rossi based solely on a figment of imagination, it's equally valid then to assert Rossi battled with Marquez purposefully to eliminate him knowing that he did NOT have the pace to beat Lorenzo. The best strategy and really the only viable one was to eliminate Marquez whilst he characteristically struggled with his machine before he (Marc) stabilized his pace. Something with actual historical evidence, no less exemplified in the previous race. This is why Rossi was so desperate to eliminate Marquez, knowing he only had a few laps to execute his Machiavellian tactic, otherwise he would have predictably came in 4th ( a tactic that he used to great effect in 2008) It worked, as he illegally "scored" and was allowed to keep 16 points.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 
michaelm said:
My personal opinion is that MM deliberately didn't make any hard moves on contenders at PI and took the win when that was on offer.

Also imo at Sepang after Rossi's in retrospect patently ill advised and again imo petulant attempt to intimidate a rider quite unlikely to be successfully intimidated by off track means, MM decided to race him very hard, but legally, should they become involved in a battle for position in the race. The net result was that Rossi got his best possible result, a third at Sepang, just as 4th was his best result at Valencia. A second at Valencia would have sufficed for JL had Rossi not made certain of 3rd at Sepang by taking out MM, whether or not he planned to do so before the race or only as the race proceeded, btw.
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Well that Sepang scenario is also much more plausible than the other one that was suggested.

Sure, in your scenario Rossi got the best result after Marquez ran wide and decided to fight hard. We'll never know whether he could've hung onto Lorenzo.

I don't deny without incidents 4th was Rossis place at Valencia without the penalty.
 
GeniusAtTwerk said:
Those are not factors outside Rossis control, he can affect whether he is slower or faster than his rivals. Factors outside his control are mechanical problems or other riders significantly impeding him or taking him out, without him having any chance to prevent it. Now, those situations are one thing to consider, but I think deliberate manipulation of the championship by the opponent or an external rider is clearly worse, even if the end result is the same.
.
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Maybe something is being lost in translation, but you state that Rossi could affect his pace relative to his rivals but insist Rossi had no control over Marquez? Why didn't Rossi just pass and stay ahead of Marquez? Especially after he announced to the world his conspiracy theory that Marquez was toying with him. Isn't the obvious logic thing to do is stay ahead and away from the supposed boogeyman that was after him? So logically then, it would stand to reason he stayed back on purpose!

Rossi Thursday: Hey look, that guy is trying to get me and mess me up.

Logical response: get away from that bad guy.

Rossi Sunday: I'm in control of my destiny, so let me hang back instead of controlling my bike to stay ahead and away from that evil bad guy.

This makes sense to you?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 
p4p1 said:
So Rossi not showing more pace than Lorenzo in the last few races isn't at all an important factor when discussing where he finished?

And really if one rider is so good that he can decide whether or not you can win the title because your pace is .... do you actually deserve to be champ?
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Rossi showed more pace than Lorenzo at PI, as did Iannone, as did Marquez; that's how one of them was able to finish in front of them and the other two within a second despite losing massive amounts of time battling each other while Lorenzo had clear air for almost all the race.

Your 2nd point doesn't really mean anything, IMO you are certainly deserving to be the champ if you are leading the championship by 18 points fully on merit with 3 races to go.
 
GeniusAtTwerk said:
Well for one I posted exactly that thought to an online forum in the middle of the PI race. [emoji14] Didn't some rider also tweet about that after the race, Zarco maybe? I don't remember.
.
Click to expand...

Post a time stamped screenshot please.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 
GeniusAtTwerk said:
I said probably the 2nd best pace, it was close between him and Iannone, and Iannone had a huge advantage on the straight which obviously was a big factor.

That's actually really hard to gauge tbh, Pedrosa and Lorenzo went strong while Rossi struggled, then Marquez went wide, then after 3-4 laps Rossi passed Marquez and equalled Lorenzos time then on the next lap the battle started. I think there was a good chance Rossi would've been able to at least stay close to Lorenzo throughout the race.

Ok, cool.

You missed the >, meaning I think it's probable these amounted to more than 5 point swing.
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We have debated this ad infinitum, what definitely amounted to more than a 5 point swing without any influence from MM was Pedrosa beating Rossi in 4 of the last 5 races and Iannone beating him at the 5th, which was PI.

They count the whole race time, they don't award the race to whomever is fastest in the last laps if he is insufficiently fast to overcome a previous deficit. And you have no way of knowing what times Lorenzo would have managed had circumstances altered anyway. Again, at both Sepang and PI VR had the option of getting and staying in front of Lorenzo if he was good/fast enough to do so.

I really don't get all this, if VR is just given an 8th title without contest from most of the field under conveniently devised late season"Rossi Rules" because he merits it due to past greatness, it devalues all other championships including all the titles which conferred that status on him. And if MM really is good enough to toy with the field as you say, then he is greater than Rossi anyway.
 
Jumkie said:
Maybe something is being lost in translation, but you state that Rossi could affect his pace relative to his rivals but insist Rossi had no control over Marquez? Why didn't Rossi just pass and stay ahead of Marquez? Especially after he announced to the world his conspiracy theory that Marquez was toying with him. Isn't the obvious logic thing to do is stay ahead and away from the supposed boogeyman that was after him? So logically then, it would stand to reason he stayed back on purpose!

Rossi Thursday: Hey look, that guy is trying to get me and mess me up.

Logical response: get away from that bad guy.

Rossi Sunday: I'm in control of my destiny, so let me hang back instead of controlling my bike to stay ahead and away from that evil bad guy.

This makes sense to you?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
Click to expand...

Well let's see.

Lap 1 & 2: Marquez looks fast, is able to stay with Pedrosa, Lorenzo passes Rossi

Lap 3: Marquez runs very wide and lets Lorenzo through, then proceeds to lose a lot of time to him the rest of the lap with Rossi getting held up.
He's 1.2 seconds slower than the previous lap

Lap 4: Rossi passes Marquez, goes a bit wide and both lose time
Rossi goes wide twice more in this lap, still he almost matches Lorenzo so there definitely was pace, Marquez though found pace as well and is right behind Rossi

Lap 5: Marquez passes Rossi into T1 with better drive but runs wide
Marquez makes a very aggressive pass into T4, a lot of time lost, Rossi back inside T5, runs a bit wide Marquez back at T6. Rossi inside T9, Marquez pushes him out of the way on the exit, Rossi back inside but runs wide.

They were a second slower, now 2 behind Lorenzo, game over.

The next 2 laps pretty much the same before Marquez goes down.

So I'm not sure what Rossi could've done differently after Lorenzo passed him, obviously he has to try to get ahead of Marquez as well and go after Lorenzo. The problem was that Marquez suddenly found pace again and then it was block pass into every corner.
 
GeniusAtTwerk said:
Rossi showed more pace than Lorenzo at PI, as did Iannone, as did Marquez; that's how one of them was able to finish in front of them and the other two within a second despite losing massive amounts of time battling each other while Lorenzo had clear air for almost all the race.

Your 2nd point doesn't really mean anything, IMO you are certainly deserving to be the champ if you are leading the championship by 18 points fully on merigo.
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Unfortunately being faster at the end doesn't count for much if you are behind.

Same for being 18 points ahead with three races to go. Sure he would have deserved the title had he stayed 18 points, or even 1 point, ahead after the last 3 races. He didn't however.

You seem to be arguing the opposite in regard to Lorenzo's lead in the PI 2015 race than you are in respect of VR's lead in the 2015 championship, btw. In both cases it is the same, the race is decided by elapsed time in the entire race, the championship by points scored over the whole season including the last 3 races of any given season.
 
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GeniusAtTwerk said:
Well let's see.

Lap 1 & 2: Marquez looks fast, is able to stay with Pedrosa, Lorenzo passes Rossi

Lap 3: Marquez runs very wide and lets Lorenzo through, then proceeds to lose a lot of time to him the rest of the lap with Rossi getting held up.
He's 1.2 seconds slower than the previous lap

Lap 4: Rossi passes Marquez, goes a bit wide and both lose time
Rossi goes wide twice more in this lap, still he almost matches Lorenzo so there definitely was pace, Marquez though found pace as well and is right behind Rossi

Lap 5: Marquez passes Rossi into T1 with better drive but runs wide
Marquez makes a very aggressive pass into T4, a lot of time lost, Rossi back inside T5, runs a bit wide Marquez back at T6. Rossi inside T9, Marquez pushes him out of the way on the exit, Rossi back inside but runs wide.

They were a second slower, now 2 behind Lorenzo, game over.

The next 2 laps pretty much the same before Marquez goes down.

So I'm not sure what Rossi could've done differently after Lorenzo passed him, obviously he has to try to get ahead of Marquez as well and go after Lorenzo. The problem was that Marquez suddenly found pace again and then it was block pass into every corner.
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You answer your own question, as has MM himself. Lorenzo passed Rossi.
 
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GeniusAtTwerk said:
Well I am biased of course but I'm pretty certain it makes much, much less sense. So, Rossi's plan all along was to deliberately take out Marquez? Or was it an accident and he was planning to battle Marquez for 18 laps bc it would benefit him somehow? This is literally the last scenario I would think is the actual truth.
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Yes, I realize you wouldn't dream up such a Machiavellian strategy from the rider who has a reputation for it.

Quick, think of a rider in the last 15 years known for using mind games and playing with the competition.

Let me guess, the name you came up with is Chris Vermillion, right right? Ha!

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 
michaelm said:
Unfortunately being faster at the end doesn't count for much if you are behind.

Same for being 18 points ahead with three races to go. Sure he would have deserved the title had he stayed 18 points, or even 1 point, ahead after the last 3 races. He didn't however.

You seem to be arguing the opposite in regard to Lorenzo's lead in the PI 2015 race than you are in respect of VR's lead in the 2015 championship, btw. In both cases it is the same, the race is decided by elapsed time in the entire race, the championship by points scored over the whole season including the last 3 races of any given season.
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That has kind of been my point the whole time. Rossi faster than Lorenzo but things happened and Lorenzo arrived to the line before Rossi.

His point seemed to be that because Marquez had superior pace in PI than Rossi, Rossi didn't deserve to win the title, which I was refuting by the points situation.
 
GeniusAtTwerk said:
What evidence would you suggest I provide proving Marquez was helping Lorenzo win the title? That's what I believe in at the moment and I've already explained the events that have led me to this conclusion.

"but if Rossi is fast enough he keeps Lorenzo behind him at PI and Sepang and all else is irrelevant"

It's obviously not that simple if there is another rider with at least equal, if not superior pace who is deliberately impeding you, even if you had better pace, as Rossi did compared to Lorenzo in PI. At Sepang, well yeah, Rossi passed and behind Lorenzo after lap 4, what kind of determining factor is that when discussing who deserves the title.

"Your argument would seem to basically amount to MM being obliged to crash out of PI 2015, a race he didn't finish at either of his 2 previous attempts in the premier class, because it would have helped Valentino."

Unbelievable strawmanning, well done. Considering I felt Marquez could've won that race by getting in front pretty early (not necessarily from the start) and winning by 2-3 seconds (with Rossi probably 2nd), how would've he been more likely to crash compared to the actual race where he battled somebody almost constantly?
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What straw manning? You shouldn't use terms you obviously don't understand, as is obviously the case with this and several other common logical fallacies which abound in your posts on this thread. It is you who is invoking the hypothetical and contending that conspiracy theories are established fact. What is not hypothetical is that the only illegality in all of this was Rossi taking out MM at Sepang cf RD's findings post-race.
 
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Hey "coyote" where did the post you linked to the motomatters forum go? Did you go edit the post?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 

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