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Rossi: "I paid too much for last year"

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Possibility of Marquez playing around with Rossi & Iannone possessing superior pace, allowing the man with the 4th best pace in the race to finish 2nd and the man with probably the 2nd best pace in the race, Rossi, 4th. (I actually did a lap-by-lap analysis of this and tried to post it in the "Will Lorenzo defend his title" thread but it didn't allow me for some reason :p

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Strong possibility of Rossi being denied the chance to chase after Lorenzo by Marquez, I know Rossi was slow in the beginning and was passed but he had just set his FL and pretty much equalled Lorenzo, despite having to pass Marquez, on the lap before the fireworks started

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strong possibility of Marquez ensuring a Lorenzo victory at Valencia by not passing and only fighting once during the race, re-passing his teammate

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a probable outcome of > 5 points advantage to Lorenzo relative to Rossi outside of his control.
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Gabble gabble gabble.

Please provide evidence of you or anyone else forming this conclusion in regard to PI 2015 prior to the pre-Sepang 2015 Rossi press conference, and any reason for why MM was obliged to continue committing suicide as he had done for much of 2015, given that his tactics this year which are similar to those he adopted at PI 2015, a race in which in 2014 he crashed out from a dominant leading position, have placed him in a comfortable (to be more precise dominant) position this year, including a podium last race on tyres on which this should not by all accounts have been possible?

Setting fast laps at the end of the PI 2015 race might just possibly have been more advantageous if Rossi had been ahead of MM or JL, and what, pray tell, did either of those riders have to do with him not being able to keep Iannone behind him at the end of the race?
 
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michaelm said:
The factors outside of his control being that he wasn't fast enough at he end of last season in the dry against MM once he decided to stop crashing, Lorenzo, or Dani Pedrosa on last year's tyres once he regained his health.

Good luck and all credit to him if he had won in 2015 by being better in an unusual number of wet races, the conditions on race day are what they are and the same for all riders, but the series is an all condition series, they currently count both dry and wet races the same regardless of which riders are best suited by those conditions.
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Those are not factors outside Rossis control, he can affect whether he is slower or faster than his rivals. Factors outside his control are mechanical problems or other riders significantly impeding him or taking him out, without him having any chance to prevent it. Now, those situations are one thing to consider, but I think deliberate manipulation of the championship by the opponent or an external rider is clearly worse, even if the end result is the same.

Example, Rossi lost an incredible amount of points relative to Hayden (much more than 2015 due to factors outside of his control but I don't think the end result is nearly as unjust as for example if Capirossi did take out Harada on purpose, or if my suspicions of Marquez were to be proven correct.

"The factors outside of his control being that he wasn't fast enough at he end of last season in the dry against MM once he decided to stop crashing, Lorenzo, or Dani Pedrosa on last year's tyres once he regained his health."

Depends on what you mean. He wasn't fast enough to take possible foul play out of the window completely, but he was fast enough IMO to take the championship based on his lead after Motegi and the pace he showed in the last 3 races, if not for extraordinary set of coincidences.

"Good luck and all credit to him if he had won in 2015 by being better in an unusual number of wet races"

I admit he was lucky it rained Sunday at Silverstone but like you said, it's the same for everyone so I never got why "Rossi can't match Lorenzo in the dry" got so much airtime but "Lorenzo can't match Rossi on the wet" went unmentioned mostly.
 
Jumkie said:
Wait, so Rossi getting ahead and staying ahead of Marquez was "outside of his control"? So Rossi's pace is unquestionably honest but Marquez's is not?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
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No, I meant that if Marquez possessed superior pace than what he showed (something in the ballpark of Pedrosa), him staying back to mess with Rossi to fight with him was a factor outside Rossis control.

Are you suggesting there is a possibility Rossi stayed back to battle with Marquez on purpose, while his only title rival was disappearing in the distance?
 
So basically your theory is completely basless and lacking in any proof other than what Rossi himself has said. Despite Marquez riding extremely similar this year as he did towards the tail end of last year to great effect.
 
GeniusAtTwerk said:
No, I meant that if Marquez possessed superior pace than what he showed (something in the ballpark of Pedrosa), him staying back to mess with Rossi to fight with him was a factor outside Rossis control.

Are you suggesting there is a possibility Rossi stayed back to battle with Marquez on purpose, while his only title rival was disappearing in the distance?
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No he's suggesting that Rossi tried to slow Marquez in an effort to save points as he is the only rider on the grid with a record of doing so.

You seem to be forgetting the woes that Marquez was having at every race with the full load of fuel that was present at all tracks last year shown by the consistent running wide in early parts of races.
 
michaelm said:
Gabble gabble gabble.

Please provide evidence of you or anyone else forming this conclusion in regard to PI 2015 prior to the pre-Sepang 2015 Rossi press conference, and any reason for why MM was obliged to continue committing suicide as he had done for much of 2015, given that his tactics this year which are similar to those he adopted at PI 2015, a race in which in 2014 he crashed out from a dominant leading position, have placed him in a comfortable (to be more precise dominant) position this year, including a podium last race on tyres on which this should not by all accounts have been possible?

Setting fast laps at the end of the PI 2015 race might just possibly have been more advantageous if Rossi had been ahead of MM or JL, and what, pray tell, did either of those riders have to do with him not being able to keep Iannone behind him at the end of the race?
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Well for one I posted exactly that thought to an online forum in the middle of the PI race. :p Didn't some rider also tweet about that after the race, Zarco maybe? I don't remember.

But obviously I can't provide any real evidence on the matter, no one can. Any talk of a conspiracy is ridiculous as well, if there was something going on, only one person knew about it for sure, Marquez.

I am basing this on the PI race which I found suspicious instantly

> Rossis in Sepang comments which everybody thought was a terrible idea and that he would regret them, I personally assumed by this they meant Marquez would get mad and would try to get Lorenzo get the title, but dunno

> Sepang race where everybody's estimates proved to be correct and even the commentator were pretty much saying Marquez was doing it on purpose during the battle before Marquez went down

> Valencia race which again was suspicious to me instantly and obviously to others to the extent where Neil Hodgson (he's an ..... tbh but still), a commentator for BT Sport came out and said on live TV and in the middle of Lorenzos celebration that Marquez played tail guard deliberately, something which I would think is a huge no-no in the broadcasting business.

That's a lot of coincidences to me at least.

I can post my lap-by-lap notes of the PI race, if you want.
 
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GeniusAtTwerk said:
Those are not factors outside Rossis control, he can affect whether he is slower or faster than his rivals. Factors outside his control are mechanical problems or other riders significantly impeding him or taking him out, without him having any chance to prevent it. Now, those situations are one thing to consider, but I think deliberate manipulation of the championship by the opponent or an external rider is clearly worse, even if the end result is the same.

Example, Rossi lost an incredible amount of points relative to Hayden (much more than 2015 due to factors outside of his control but I don't think the end result is nearly as unjust as for example if Capirossi did take out Harada on purpose, or if my suspicions of Marquez were to be proven correct.

"The factors outside of his control being that he wasn't fast enough at he end of last season in the dry against MM once he decided to stop crashing, Lorenzo, or Dani Pedrosa on last year's tyres once he regained his health."

Depends on what you mean. He wasn't fast enough to take possible foul play out of the window completely, but he was fast enough IMO to take the championship based on his lead after Motegi and the pace he showed in the last 3 races, if not for extraordinary set of coincidences.

"Good luck and all credit to him if he had won in 2015 by being better in an unusual number of wet races"

I admit he was lucky it rained Sunday at Silverstone but like you said, it's the same for everyone so I never got why "Rossi can't match Lorenzo in the dry" got so much airtime but "Lorenzo can't match Rossi on the wet" went unmentioned mostly.
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FFS, races are much more commonly dry than wet. If it was the "wet" GP bike racing championship of the world, they would hold every race in the UK, and on current form and with his current level of restraint MM would still probably win. That he is currently 23 while VR is 37 is undeniably true, but it is what it is, and Rossi whilst a notably better wet rider than JL currently was not necessarily so against all previous rivals anyway.
 
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p4p1 said:
No he's suggesting that Rossi tried to slow Marquez in an effort to save points as he is the only rider on the grid with a record of doing so.

You seem to be forgetting the woes that Marquez was having at every race with the full load of fuel that was present at all tracks last year shown by the consistent running wide in early parts of races.
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So the assumption is Rossi had already given up on 2nd, what with being well under a second back of Lorenzo with 18 laps to go, and tried to secure 3rd by slowing Marquez down which resulted in a fierce battle, again with 18 laps to go? That doesn't make any sense.

"he is the only rider on the grid with a record of doing so"

What does this mean? You mean Laguna 08 or smth?

Can you give examples of Marquez' 2015 problems going wide at the start of races?
 
michaelm said:
FFS, races are much more commonly dry than wet. If it was the "wet" GP bike racing championship of the world, they would hold every race in the UK, and on current form and with his current level of restraint MM would still probably win. That he is currently 23 while VR is 37 is undeniably true, but it is what it is, and Rossi whilst a notably better wet rider than JL currently was not necessarily so against all previous rivals anyway.
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Of course races are more usually dry than wet and its more important to be fast when its dry. My point was that wet races happen and the skill level riders possess for those conditions is not meaningless.

So that's why I was and still am confused why the reaction to Silverstone 2015 was "well, wasn't Rossi lucky" and now "well, credit to Rossi for being better than Lorenzo on the wet".
 
GeniusAtTwerk said:
Oh I know Lorenzo had 5 more points at the end of the season, I just believe Rossi lost (much) more points than that on factors outside of his control in the last 2 and maybe even 3 races. I don't believe either lost points outside of their control before PI.

That's your belief, I think Rossi has a decent chance considering Rossi has had the better pace in at least 7/11 races so far, is leading on points and Lorenzo struggling on the wet nowadays.
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So in your mind Rossi beat Lorenzo last year. People's champion huh.

Lets analyse PI, Marquez took 5 points away from Lorenzo, not Rossi. Ianonne took points from Rossi.

Sepang, Rossi benefitted 3 points from illegally causing another rider to crash. Pedrosa and Lorenzo both had way more pace on raceday and if you believe Rossi fans which you obviously do or you wouldnt have posted such nonsense, Marquez was playing with Rossi and had the better pace himself.

Valencia Rossi was the 4th fastest rider out of the top 4 and thats where he was finishing irregardless of where he started. Keep in mind Rossi qualified 12th at Valencia, so his penalty was only 10 spots. So show me where he lost points on factors outside his control.
 
GeniusAtTwerk said:
So the assumption is Rossi had already given up on 2nd, what with being well under a second back of Lorenzo with 18 laps to go, and tried to secure 3rd by slowing Marquez down which resulted in a fierce battle, again with 18 laps to go? That doesn't make any sense.

"he is the only rider on the grid with a record of doing so"

What does this mean? You mean Laguna 08 or smth?

Can you give examples of Marquez' 2015 problems going wide at the start of races?
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Given that he never had the pace of the top 2 it makes more sense than your baseless ramblings. He ended up securing 3rd at any cost.
 
GeniusAtTwerk said:
Of course races are more usually dry than wet and its more important to be fast when its dry. My point was that wet races happen and the skill level riders possess for those conditions is not meaningless.

So that's why I was and still am confused why the reaction to Silverstone 2015 was "well, wasn't Rossi lucky" and now "well, credit to Rossi for being better than Lorenzo on the wet".
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Even Rossi would admit he was lucky at Silverstone last year. Lorenzo and Marquez were going to run away with the race making him lose 4-9 points then luckily for him it rained on Sunday.
 
povol said:
So in your mind Rossi beat Lorenzo last year. People's champion huh.

Lets analyse PI, Marquez took 5 points away from Lorenzo, not Rossi. Ianonne took points from Rossi.

Sepang, Rossi benefitted 3 points from illegally causing another rider to crash. Pedrosa and Lorenzo both had way more pace on raceday and if you believe Rossi fans which you obviously do or you wouldnt have posted such nonsense, Marquez was playing with Rossi and had the better pace himself.

Valencia Rossi was the 4th fastest rider out of the top 4 and thats where he was finishing irregardless of where he started. Keep in mind Rossi qualified 12th at Valencia, so his penalty was only 10 spots. So show me where he lost points on factors outside his control.
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:huh: I did exactly that in post #19.
 
GeniusAtTwerk said:
Well for one I posted exactly that thought to an online forum in the middle of the PI race. :p Didn't some rider also tweet about that after the race, Zarco maybe? I don't remember.

But obviously I can't provide any real evidence on the matter, no one can. Any talk of a conspiracy is ridiculous as well, if there was something going on, only one person knew about it for sure, Marquez.

I am basing this on the PI race which I found suspicious instantly

> Rossis in Sepang comments which everybody thought was a terrible idea and that he would regret them, I personally assumed by this they meant Marquez would get mad and would try to get Lorenzo get the title, but dunno

> Sepang race where everybody's estimates proved to be correct and even the commentator were pretty much saying Marquez was doing it on purpose during the battle before Marquez went down

> Valencia race which again was suspicious to me instantly and obviously to others to the extent where Neil Hodgson (he's an ..... tbh but still), a commentator for BT Sport came out and said on live TV and in the middle of Lorenzos celebration that Marquez played tail guard deliberately, something which I would think is a huge no-no in the broadcasting business.

That's a lot of coincidences to me at least.

I can post my lap-by-lap notes of the PI race, if you want.
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Simple. I disagree with most of what you say, for which you gave no evidence but conjecture anyway, but if Rossi is fast enough he keeps Lorenzo behind him at PI and Sepang and all else is irrelevant, as some bloke called Marc Marquez actually said. If you want to win a world championship you can't rely on what 3rd parties may or may not do, and as a Mick Doohan fan I have no desire to take away Wayne Rainey's 3rd championship or to award Mick a sixth, despite Mick having a much more dominant lead that year than VR had in 2015. People who followed the sport back then much more commonly actually understood the sport.

Marc Marquez crashed out of 6 races prior to PI by trying to win every race by leading every lap, and arguably started this habit at PI 2014. You may remember there was a mandatory tyre change at PI 2013 because no rider on any tyre was considered able to last over half race distance.

Your argument would seem to basically amount to MM being obliged to crash out of PI 2015, a race he didn't finish at either of his 2 previous attempts in the premier class, because it would have helped Valentino.

He won the ....... race. No more can be required of him by anyone. End of story.
 
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GeniusAtTwerk said:
Of course races are more usually dry than wet and its more important to be fast when its dry. My point was that wet races happen and the skill level riders possess for those conditions is not meaningless.

So that's why I was and still am confused why the reaction to Silverstone 2015 was "well, wasn't Rossi lucky" and now "well, credit to Rossi for being better than Lorenzo on the wet".
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Exactly the point I made. Your point is? And are you able to read?
 
GeniusAtTwerk said:
Well for one I posted exactly that thought to an online forum in the middle of the PI race. :p Didn't some rider also tweet about that after the race, Zarco maybe? I don't remember.

But obviously I can't provide any real evidence on the matter, no one can. Any talk of a conspiracy is ridiculous as well, if there was something going on, only one person knew about it for sure, Marquez.

I am basing this on the PI race which I found suspicious instantly

> Rossis in Sepang comments which everybody thought was a terrible idea and that he would regret them, I personally assumed by this they meant Marquez would get mad and would try to get Lorenzo get the title, but dunno

> Sepang race where everybody's estimates proved to be correct and even the commentator were pretty much saying Marquez was doing it on purpose during the battle before Marquez went down

> Valencia race which again was suspicious to me instantly and obviously to others to the extent where Neil Hodgson (he's an ..... tbh but still), a commentator for BT Sport came out and said on live TV and in the middle of Lorenzos celebration that Marquez played tail guard deliberately, something which I would think is a huge no-no in the broadcasting business.

That's a lot of coincidences to me at least.

I can post my lap-by-lap notes of the PI race, if you want.
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Yes, please show where you suspected Marquez was up to no good with a time stamped quote from an online forum on PI raceday.
 
p4p1 said:
Given that he never had the pace of the top 2 it makes more sense than your baseless ramblings. He ended up securing 3rd at any cost.
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Well I am biased of course but I'm pretty certain it makes much, much less sense. So, Rossi's plan all along was to deliberately take out Marquez? Or was it an accident and he was planning to battle Marquez for 18 laps bc it would benefit him somehow? This is literally the last scenario I would think is the actual truth.
 
povol said:
Yes, please show where you suspected Marquez was up to no good with a time stamped quote from an online forum on PI raceday.
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MotoMatters.com Forums ? View topic - 2015 Pramac Australian Motorcycle Grand Prix

Ok, I was accusing Iannone in the heat of the moment as well so I can't take full credit for that :D, but I do remember hearing about the rider tweet bringing it up, then watching the race again the next day and starting to get suspicious. You'll have to take my word on the 2nd part.

I'm coyote.
 
And I felt bad about talking about last year in the other thread. Really. Now Mr. "I can't ride a Ducati, but I kill it on a Yamaha", is blaming this year on last year? Oh, please. This is bad comedy, right?

And guess what - we have the "MM ...... Rossi out of a 'ship" fan club already supporting the narcissistic dementia of our Italian hero. Now, I just feel bad that I turned in my secret MotoGP decoder ring. I can no longer get the conspiracy plans of the Spanish Armada determined to screw the yellow spaghetti ...... out of anything and everything. I shall eat more cereal, until I find another ring.

This ganging up on poor Baby 46 must stop. If Iannone can't stop it (he is trying), then we all must do our part for the good of the sport's religious icon. It may not be so good for the sport in general, but f' 'em if they can't take in the shorts for the good of our one true infallible deity.
 
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