Physical Violence on Track

J4rn0 said:

Come on. That kind of difference in track temperature (29° against 51°, with an air temperature that was actually cold, only 17° against 34° last year) cannot be described as "much better" track conditions! They are not even 'better', it's just spring conditions against typical summer conditions. It simply means they have to use a softer tire, rather than a hard one.

Nicky Hayden for instance was actually faster last year.



Truth is, it is the Hondas that are consistently faster this year: Dovi was more than 16 seconds faster this year than last year, at Le Mans. Hayden and Dovi are the only top riders that were on the same bike last year, and their results have been opposite. You cannot explain that with a cooler track...

Lorenzo was 4 seconds faster this year than last year; yes, he had some problems, but I would not consider these problems big enough to have slowed him down to the point of arriving 21 seconds behind Stoner, -- if really his potential was to stay with him, or at the very least with Pedro and Sic, as you imply.



I think the stop and go characteristic of the Le Mans track have made Honda's advantage in acceleration even more apparent, that's all.

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Last year Hayden was on a Stoner Developed Ducati, this year he is on Rossi developed one.....enough said!



I spoke with Rossi who has confirmed that Lorenzo was losing 0.2 per lap by being on his spare bike and a whopping 0.6 per lap because of his hand injury. Without these time losses he would have won.

J4rn0 said:

Come on. That kind of difference in track temperature (29° against 51°, with an air temperature that was actually cold, only 17° against 34° last year) cannot be described as "much better" track conditions! They are not even 'better', it's just spring conditions against typical summer conditions. It simply means they have to use a softer tire, rather than a hard one.

Nicky Hayden for instance was actually faster last year.



Truth is, it is the Hondas that are consistently faster this year: Dovi was more than 16 seconds faster this year than last year, at Le Mans. Hayden and Dovi are the only top riders that were on the same bike last year, and their results have been opposite. You cannot explain that with a cooler track...

Lorenzo was 4 seconds faster this year than last year; yes, he had some problems, but I would not consider these problems big enough to have slowed him down to the point of arriving 21 seconds behind Stoner, -- if really his potential was to stay with him, or at the very least with Pedro and Sic, as you imply.



I think the stop and go characteristic of the Le Mans track have made Honda's advantage in acceleration even more apparent, that's all.

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Last year Hayden was on a Stoner Developed Ducati, this year he is on Rossi developed one.....enough said!



I spoke with Rossi who has confirmed that Lorenzo was losing 0.2 per lap by being on his spare bike and a whopping 0.6 per lap because of his hand injury. Without these time losses he would have won.

Talpa said:

Thereis certainly one major improvement from last year, and that was from the no 1 ducati, probably about 22 laps faster

btw this is about casey cocks punch. Has anyone ever seen a deliberate act of violence against another rider as bad as this? If not, the one must consider it to be a precident of which the punishment seems to have been just invented?

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You don't read do you, or do you block?



Yes.



1. Wayne Maxwell last year at Phillip Island Moto2 where he landed a FULL, yes FULL love tap to the side of the head of a fallen rider (far worse than what your blinkers say Stoner did). Penalty was a 5000 euro fine, thus the precedent was set.



2. A few years back, a mosquito bite I believe it was.









Gaz

Rossi's torpedo on Stoner was an act of violence.

J4rn0 said:

Again -- track conditions are the same for all, right?

I said it does not explain the dramatic improvement in times by the Hondas, especially in the face of the fact that no other bikes have improved their times as much, or even come close. How can you say that the Hondas have been faster mainly because of track conditions, when all other bikes on the same track have been slower or just marginally faster? Numbers do not lie.

The fact that the Hondas have made a quantum leap is widely recognized in the MotoGP world this year. Feel free to stick to your (very) personal opinion though.

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You said "Come on. That kind of difference in track temperature (29° against 51°, with an air temperature that was actually cold, only 17° against 34° last year) cannot be described as "much better" track conditions! They are not even 'better',





Now explain how Dani was 6 seconds faster at Estoril in 2009 where he finished 3rd, when Honda was considered a pos, than he was in winning 2011 on a bike you contend has made huge jumps in development. Kind of strange isnt it .





2009 Estoril



1 25 99 Jorge LORENZO SPA Fiat Yamaha Team Yamaha 154.1 45'35.522

2 20 27 Casey STONER AUS Ducati Marlboro Team Ducati 153.7 +6.294

3 16 3 Dani PEDROSA SPA Repsol Honda Team Honda 153.5 +9.889 = 45'45.411



2011 Estoril



1 25 26 Dani PEDROSA SPA Repsol Honda Team Honda 153.2 45'51.483

Honda is the best bike this year. Tough. It is not a handicap event, although dorna may change this if they don't like the results, since wsbk is run to some extent in that fashion.



Rossi is where he is because he chose to be, he could have stayed at yamaha, and for that matter he could have stayed at honda and probably had 11 world championships by now if he had done so. Making career decisions for political reasons/to make a point, or for more money (not the reason for either of his changes in my view btw) is fraught with risk no matter how good the athlete, and top level sport is replete with examples of great athletes coming unstuck doing so, especially later in their careers. Not withstanding this, I agree with arrabbiata that he may well be unstoppable next year, and showed signs at the last race that he is getting there with this years bike; it certainly looked less unstable, if not to the point of being actually stable in general terms.



If stoner wins this year's championship, which I for one am not calling at this very early stage, whether he is likeable or not, the bike winning the championship rather than him (apparently for him but no other championship winners) thing doesn't fly , particularly in view of nearly all the criticisms in the past, to do with his riding anyway, having been proved wrong, to the extent that he has been criticised by the same people for things which are polar opposites.



Other than at estoril he has been fastest of the honda riders anyway, comfortably faster than dovi who is no slouch, and simoncelli matching him for single lap pace has frequently been closely followed by encounters with the scenery.

Talpa said:

like I said don't even consider me, ask the french fans who

erupted in scathing boos and geers on Sunday. The guy has

been booed many times before and he will be remembered for

his prickly persona, and massive ego, as kosinski is.....



What is truly funny is the same old boners attemted defence of stoners behaviour

I certainly haven't witnessed worse from the yellow camp.....

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Please provide evidence for complaints from fellow riders including rossi about his riding being dangerous, or for him being widely disliked by other riders for that matter.



He may well and rightly be remembered for having a prickly personality, but he will be remembered more for winning quite a few premier class gp races, about the 6th most in history and counting at present, and it looks possible for winning mutiple premier class world championships, and will not I suspect be greatly condemned by history for outraging a few rossi fans on fan forums.

michaelm said:

Please provide evidence for complaints from fellow riders including rossi about his riding being dangerous, or for him being widely disliked by other riders for that matter.



He may well and rightly be remembered for having a prickly personality, but he will be remembered more for winning quite a few premier class gp races, about the 6th most in history and counting at present, and it looks possible for winning mutiple premier class world championships, and will not I suspect be greatly condemned by history for outraging a few rossi fans on fan forums.

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I would assign prickly to Matt Mladin and I like the guy Stoner just has a bad temper, otherwise he seems laid back and content.

hawkdriver said:

I would assign prickly to Matt Mladin and I like the guy

Stoner just has a bad temper, otherwise he seems laid back and content.

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Funny actually and it really shows how perceptions are built but I have run into Matt twice in Oz, and both times he has been extremely polite and respectful, but he does 'swagger' rather than 'walk' in terms of he presents as 'get out of my face'.



But that was when he was not at work and in Oz, plus he was with a mate of mine at the time so this was not a 'oh my god, it is Matt Mladin type of moment' as we were introduced given he was there for the same reasons.













Gaz

Gaz said:

Funny actually and it really shows how perceptions are built but I have run into Matt twice in Oz, and both times he has been extremely polite and respectful, but he does 'swagger' rather than 'walk' in terms of he presents as 'get out of my face'.



But that was when he was not at work and in Oz, plus he was with a mate of mine at the time so this was not a 'oh my god, it is Matt Mladin type of moment' as we were introduced given he was there for the same reasons.













Gaz

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Well I'm jealous and I'm sure he's a great guy, I like him and grew up watching him tearing it up in the AMA, smart man, one of my favorites. He does have that don't .... with me cocky attitude. There are lots of similarities between him and Stoner.

Comparing times from one year to another is drawing a long bow to compare one rider to another.

Tyres are probably different every time they go to a track each year. All teams have 12 months more development & information available.

If you want to look how far the Ducati has develpoed compared to it's competitors then see how far from the winner they were & where the other riders finished in relation to previous seasons.

Afterall what is the point of developing a bike a little bit faster than last year when your competitors have found even more pace?

Gaz said:

You don't read do you, or do you block?



Yes.



1. Wayne Maxwell last year at Phillip Island Moto2 where he landed a FULL, yes FULL love tap to the side of the head of a fallen rider (far worse than what your blinkers say Stoner did). Penalty was a 5000 euro fine, thus the precedent was set.



2. A few years back, a mosquito bite I believe it was.









Gaz

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Do you mean the one that bit Biaggi on the way to the podium

povol said:

You said "Come on. That kind of difference in track temperature (29° against 51°, with an air temperature that was actually cold, only 17° against 34° last year) cannot be described as "much better" track conditions! They are not even 'better',





Now explain how Dani was 6 seconds faster at Estoril in 2009 where he finished 3rd, when Honda was considered a pos, than he was in winning 2011 on a bike you contend has made huge jumps in development. Kind of strange isnt it .





2009 Estoril



1 25 99 Jorge LORENZO SPA Fiat Yamaha Team Yamaha 154.1 45'35.522

2 20 27 Casey STONER AUS Ducati Marlboro Team Ducati 153.7 +6.294

3 16 3 Dani PEDROSA SPA Repsol Honda Team Honda 153.5 +9.889 = 45'45.411



2011 Estoril



1 25 26 Dani PEDROSA SPA Repsol Honda Team Honda 153.2 45'51.483

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Pov you are wrong as usual



If you check Estoril better, you'll see that in 2009 they were all faster than any other year in the 800cc era. 2009 was the fastest race at Estoril, in fact. That can be described as better conditions, since it is corroborated by lap times.



This year at Le Mans, it was only the Hondas that were signfiicantly faster. The others were more or less the same as the previous year. So that cannot be described as better track conditions.



Your problem (and others') is not that you lack the intelligence or the experience to understand things (you have them), but that you always have to follow your prejudice. So now you can not accept that 4 Hondas are faster, even if it is a very evident fact for the entire MotoGP world, because that would automatically mean that Rossi is doing well after all, in the circumstances.

Now, that is difficult to digest for you, isn't it, after all the nonsense you have been writing on this forum about Rossi and Ducati, for months.



Take out those green glasses, and you'll see that yellow is just one color among others.

J4rn0 said:

Jum you are wrong as usual

If you check Estoril better, you'll see that in 2009 they were all faster than any other year in the 800cc era. 2009 was the fastest race at Estoril, in fact. That can be described as better conditions, since it is corroborated by lap times.



This year at Le Mans, it was only the Hondas that were signfiicantly faster. The others were more or less the same as the previous year. So that cannot be described as better track conditions.



Your problem (and others') is not that you lack the intelligence or the experience to understand things (you have them), but that you always have to follow your prejudice. So now you can not accept that 4 Hondas are faster, even if it is a very evident fact for the entire MotoGP world, because that would automatically mean that Rossi is doing well after all, in the circumstances.

Now, that is difficult to digest for you, isn't it, after all the nonsense you have been writing on this forum about Rossi and Ducati, for months.

Take out those green glasses, and you'll see that yellow is just one color among others.

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J4rn0, the post you quoted is Povol not Jumkie....opps!

Mental Anarchist said:

J4rn0, the post you quoted is Povol not Jumkie....opps!

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It is easy to mix them sometimes. Edited...

J4rn0 said:

Your problem (and others') is not that you lack the intelligence or the experience to understand things (you have them), but that you always have to follow your prejudice. So now you can not accept that 4 Hondas are faster, even if it is a very evident fact for the entire MotoGP world, because that would automatically mean that Rossi is doing well after all, in the circumstances.

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Jeez J4rn0, you're a fine one to talk about bias. You have consistently shown yourself to be the most unquestioning Rossi-centric member on this entire forum. It's dead simple - conversely and hypothetically, were Casey still to be on the Ducati achieving the same results that Vale has this year, in the eyes of the Rossi faithful he'd be a washed up talent, a spent force, unable to match his rivals in the developmental stakes despite having the machinery to do so because after all it was capable of winning races at the end of last season. Meantime picture if you will another scenario - Rossi had returned to HRC and in an instant the combined genius of rider and crew have managed in the close season to achieve what Honda and their riders had been desperately trying to do with the RC212V since 2007. Rossi's developmental genius alone would have raised the bar and with it the performance of his three factory co riders. All those improvements would be attributed to 'The Doctor's' clinic and his expert diagnosis. Valentino would have been the remedy to all Honda's ills.



There's no doubting the fact that HRC have made a quantum leap forward, and despite his timely move as you well know Casey was always going to be fast on that bike. That RCV was arguably already the stongest package last season, and had Dani not have been plagued by injury yet again last year - even given Jorge's ruthless consitency he was looking a very strong bet for the title again.



If we're talking in terms of solely machinery advantage on the part of HRC over rider skill, which you appear to be, then what's your opinion of 2002?

Arrabbiata1 said:

Jeez J4rn0, you're a fine one to talk about bias. You have consistently shown yourself to be the most unquestioning Rossi-centric member on this entire forum. It's dead simple - conversely and hypothetically, were Casey still to be on the Ducati achieving the same results that Vale has this year, in the eyes of the Rossi faithful he'd be a washed up talent, a spent force, unable to match his rivals in the developmental stakes despite having the machinery to do so because after all it was capable of winning races at the end of last season. Meantime picture if you will another scenario - Rossi had returned to HRC and in an instant the combined genius of rider and crew have managed in the close season to achieve what Honda and their riders had been desperately trying to do with the RC212V since 2007. Rossi's developmental genius alone would have raised the bar and with it the performance of his three factory co riders. All those improvements would be attributed to 'The Doctor's' clinic and his expert diagnosis. Valentino would have been the remedy to all Honda's ills.



There's no doubting the fact that HRC have made a quantum leap forward, and despite his timely move as you well know Casey was always going to be fast on that bike. That RCV was arguably already the stongest package last season, and had Dani not have been plagued by injury yet again last year - even given Jorge's ruthless consitency he was looking a very strong bet for the title again.



If we're talking in terms of solely machinery advantage on the part of HRC over rider skill, which you appear to be, then what's your opinion of 2002?

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Well put. Your hypothetical scenarios would be deducted exactly that way. Because it suits their argument.

Arrabbiata1 said:

Jeez J4rn0, you're a fine one to talk about bias. You have consistently shown yourself to be the most unquestioning Rossi-centric member on this entire forum. It's dead simple - conversely and hypothetically, were Casey still to be on the Ducati achieving the same results that Vale has this year, in the eyes of the Rossi faithful he'd be a washed up talent, a spent force, unable to match his rivals in the developmental stakes despite having the machinery to do so because after all it was capable of winning races at the end of last season. Meantime picture if you will another scenario - Rossi had returned to HRC and in an instant the combined genius of rider and crew have managed in the close season to achieve what Honda and their riders had been desperately trying to do with the RC212V since 2007. Rossi's developmental genius alone would have raised the bar and with it the performance of his three factory co riders. All those improvements would be attributed to 'The Doctor's' clinic and his expert diagnosis. Valentino would have been the remedy to all Honda's ills.



There's no doubting the fact that HRC have made a quantum leap forward, and despite his timely move as you well know Casey was always going to be fast on that bike. That RCV was arguably already the stongest package last season, and had Dani not have been plagued by injury yet again last year - even given Jorge's ruthless consitency he was looking a very strong bet for the title again.



If we're talking in terms of solely machinery advantage on the part of HRC over rider skill, which you appear to be, then what's your opinion of 2002?

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No arguments from me.



In fact the hypocrisy has already begun....Stoner has again been blessed to step straight onto the "best bike". Except this time around it is probably true. He is still however consistently faster than his team mates - as always.

Gaz said:

Funny actually and it really shows how perceptions are built but I have run into Matt twice in Oz, and both times he has been extremely polite and respectful, but he does 'swagger' rather than 'walk' in terms of he presents as 'get out of my face'.



But that was when he was not at work and in Oz, plus he was with a mate of mine at the time so this was not a 'oh my god, it is Matt Mladin type of moment' as we were introduced given he was there for the same reasons.



Gaz

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Prostate exam?

J4rn0 said:

This year at Le Mans, it was only the Hondas that were signfiicantly faster. The others were more or less the same as the previous year. So that cannot be described as better track conditions.

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Lorenzo made a mistake with a couple of laps to go and then cruised to the end when he saw he can't get back to Rossi and Dovi. Without the mistake his time would have been considerably faster than last year. And that's without his first bike which was damaged in the warm up.