Physical Violence on Track

michaelm said:

Honda is the best bike this year. Tough. It is not a handicap event, ......

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C'mon Michael, we can remember when they wanted to handicap the Ducati (2007/2008 was it).



Let them do it this year to show them what a farcical idea it was back then

Keshav said:

Prostate exam?

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Despite that he actually lived quite close for a while nah, we didn't share doctors fingers



Lets just say was at a racetrack and involved some riding , but not racing as was prior to his retirement











Gaz

J4rn0 said:

Pov you are wrong as usual

If you check Estoril better, you'll see that in 2009 they were all faster than any other year in the 800cc era. 2009 was the fastest race at Estoril, in fact. That can be described as better conditions, since it is corroborated by lap times.



This year at Le Mans, it was only the Hondas that were signfiicantly faster. The others were more or less the same as the previous year. So that cannot be described as better track conditions.



Your problem (and others') is not that you lack the intelligence or the experience to understand things (you have them), but that you always have to follow your prejudice. So now you can not accept that 4 Hondas are faster, even if it is a very evident fact for the entire MotoGP world, because that would automatically mean that Rossi is doing well after all, in the circumstances.

Now, that is difficult to digest for you, isn't it, after all the nonsense you have been writing on this forum about Rossi and Ducati, for months.

Take out those green glasses, and you'll see that yellow is just one color among others.

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So now you will defend your argument with better track conditions [14 degrees], right after you defended your argument saying 40 degree difference in track temp was not significant, weak my man. I have never said the Honda's did not improve over the off season. What i did say is the Honda was the best bike for the last half of 2009, and now they have the fastest rider who has motivated his team mate.The Honda has gotten better no doubt, but the biggest leap they made was behind the handle bars.

povol said:

So now you will defend your argument with better track conditions [14 degrees], right after you defended your argument saying 40 degree difference in track temp was not significant, weak my man. I have never said the Honda's did not improve over the off season. What i did say is the Honda was the best bike for the last half of 2009, and now they have the fastest rider who has motivated his team mate.The Honda has gotten better no doubt, but the biggest leap they made was behind the handle bars.

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It is not a matter of a 2011 track temperature of 29° (not 14°...) instead of 51° in 2010, the variables are so many. But I think everybody agrees that a track is in ideal conditions only when all or most riders lap faster (as happened in Estoril in 2009). But when only the riders on a certain bike lap faster, while the others lap more or less the same, of course that cannot be called a better track condition (as Bigbang said, -- not you in fact) but the reasons will of course be in the bike itself. Thta's the whole point.

povol said:

and now they have the fastest rider who has motivated his team mate.The Honda has gotten better no doubt, but the biggest leap they made was behind the handle bars.

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Looking at Portugal, one would certainly not state this. You would state that they already had the fastest rider, who smacked the field injured.





Nor looking at Dovi and Sic's constant battering of the reigning world champ at Le mans. Unless you feel that Dovi and Sic can out-ride Lorenzo and Rossi at will?



Honda's biggest leap forward is their acceleration out of turns, aided by the new gearbox.



Stoners inclusion has helped motivation certainly, but without the leap forward in tools and engineering advantage they posses, the results would be far different, this is of course the name of the game.



Even without Honda's advantage, Yamaha has a large issue in as such that they haven't really improved at all from last year and considering the state of the reg changes next year and the lack of money, you can see why.



Honda certainly has finally got what they set out to achieve in the 800cc era, which was to make the bike and technology more important than the rider. However, they will not ever escape the true reality of this ultimately fundamentally flawed era which they created to benefit themselves, the reality of being comprehensively beaten.



Maybe Kropos rumor mill is dead on and Yamaha is giving them one out of pity......The sad thing for the fans is that the manufactures are once again truly determining outcomes and at one stage some years back we believed otherwise.

Talpa said:

Looking at Portugal, one would certainly not state this. You would state that they already had the fastest rider, who smacked the field injured.





Nor looking at Dovi and Sic's constant battering of the reigning world champ at Le mans. Unless you feel that Dovi and Sic can out-ride Lorenzo and Rossi at will?



Honda's biggest leap forward is their acceleration out of turns, aided by the new gearbox.



Stoners inclusion has helped motivation certainly, but without the leap forward in tools and engineering advantage they posses, the results would be far different, this is of course the name of the game.



Even without Honda's advantage, Yamaha has a large issue in as such that they haven't really improved at all from last year and considering the state of the reg changes next year and the lack of money, you can see why.



Honda certainly has finally got what they set out to achieve in the 800cc era, which was to make the bike and technology more important than the rider. However, they will not ever escape the true reality of this ultimately fundamentally flawed era which they created to benefit themselves, the reality of being comprehensively beaten.



Maybe Kropos rumor mill is dead on and Yamaha is giving them one out of pity......The sad thing for the fans is that the manufactures are once again truly determining outcomes and at one stage some years back we believed otherwise.

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Highly amusing, the more so because you constantly accuse others of bias.



On the other hand, perhaps you rate stoner higher than anyone, since you seem to expect/require him to win every race; he didn't win estoril in 2007 on the purported red rocketship with the magic tyres.



As I have said, if the honda is a superior bike this year, tough.

michaelm said:

Highly amusing, the more so because you constantly accuse others of bias.



On the other hand, perhaps you rate stoner higher than anyone, since you seem to expect/require him to win every race; he didn't win estoril in 2007 on the purported red rocketship with the magic tyres.

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Rocketship it was, no one has refuted this.......Magic tyres they were, magic enough that one short season later, everyone had them! I'd say even more than magical considering the record of the rubber company they booted out.



So are you stating that one can look at Portugal 2011 and categorically state that Honda have only just hired the 'Fastest' rider, and that this is their major advantage?



I'm saying you can't- as Dani beat Stoner by miles at Estoril on the same bike whilst nursing a serious shoulder problem, and Dani hasn't won at Estoril ever........therefore Stoner is not the 'fastest' rider.



Thus, when considering this, and Honda's 1-4 dominance of a lot of sessions this season, I'm simply stating that Honda's 'main' advantage is in their superior engineering this season, and I'm giving credit where credit is due, their hiring of Stoner has provided motivation for the existing riders and secured them yet another front running competitor on their factory machinery, thus massively increasing the odds of obtaining the title- What this all has cost them would be very interesting to find out......

Talpa said:

Rocketship it was, no one has refuted this.......Magic tyres they were, magic enough that one short season later, everyone had them! I'd say even more than magical considering the record of the rubber company they booted out.



So are you stating that one can look at Portugal 2011 and categorically state that Honda have only just hired the 'Fastest' rider, and that this is their major advantage?



I'm saying you can't- as Dani beat Stoner by miles at Estoril on the same bike whilst nursing a serious shoulder problem, and Dani hasn't won at Estoril ever........therefore Stoner is not the 'fastest' rider.



Thus, when considering this, and Honda's 1-4 dominance of a lot of sessions this season, I'm simply stating that Honda's 'main' advantage is in their superior engineering this season, and I'm giving credit where credit is due, their hiring of Stoner has provided motivation for the existing riders and secured them yet another front running competitor on their factory machinery, thus massively increasing the odds of obtaining the title- What this all has cost them would be very interesting to find out......

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I am merely stating the obvious. The fastest rider is not necessarily fastest in every session at every race and every test, in fact you have criticised stoner as showing poor tactical sense for being so in the past, and even valentino and mick doohan in their best seasons did not win every race, although mick went close one season.



You are also very selective as to who is allowed to use injury as an excuse and when they are allowed to do it; lorenzo was on his number 2 bike and had a hand injury at le Mans, not that this is the problem of any of the other riders. Simoncelli who is yet to finish in front of lorenzo (who btw is still leading the championship) is occasionally as fast as stoner, but this seems to involve throwing the bike down quite often, and he is acknowledged as a very fast rider in any case and is on a full factory honda this season. Dovi who is no slouch and has been on the bike for 2 seasons is consistently not near stoner's pace and has been well behind jorge other than at le mans.



If the honda is the fastest bike such is life, and stoner is more likely to win on it than dani as I said pre-season, partly because of dani's great and unfortunate propensity for injury, and partly because imo he fiddles with the bike too much searching for absolute perfection, and before this season only appeared to really push for wins in a few races each year when he was totally happy with the bike. Part of the honda's ability to come out of corners quickly may be related to stoner's tolerance of more extreme power delivery which dani wanted tuned out of the bike, but he was fast out of corners on a ducati as well, and I think it is also relates to how he rides.

Talpa said:

Looking at Portugal, one would certainly not state this. You would state that they already had the fastest rider, who smacked the field injured.





Nor looking at Dovi and Sic's constant battering of the reigning world champ at Le mans. Unless you feel that Dovi and Sic can out-ride Lorenzo and Rossi at will?



Honda's biggest leap forward is their acceleration out of turns, aided by the new gearbox.



Stoners inclusion has helped motivation certainly, but without the leap forward in tools and engineering advantage they posses, the results would be far different, this is of course the name of the game.



Even without Honda's advantage, Yamaha has a large issue in as such that they haven't really improved at all from last year and considering the state of the reg changes next year and the lack of money, you can see why.



Honda certainly has finally got what they set out to achieve in the 800cc era, which was to make the bike and technology more important than the rider. However, they will not ever escape the true reality of this ultimately fundamentally flawed era which they created to benefit themselves, the reality of being comprehensively beaten.



Maybe Kropos rumor mill is dead on and Yamaha is giving them one out of pity......The sad thing for the fans is that the manufactures are once again truly determining outcomes and at one stage some years back we believed otherwise.

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I have to hand it to you - you're the world champ when it comes to cherry picking stats to suit your arguments....you conveniently ignore any evidence that contradicts your version of "the truth".



Stoner IS the fastest rider in the world and he is now on the fastest bike - but he wont win every race.....no one ever does.



You will have to learn to deal with it I am afraid and all your sooking and whining wont change these facts no matter how much you cry about it

Mr Squiggle said:

Stoner IS the fastest rider in the world and he is now on the fastest bike - but he wont win every race.....no one ever does.

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Why not? He is the 'Fastest', shouldn't be too hard at all then? He should have killed them in Portugal, perfect conditions, great grid pos, if he his the indisputable 'Fastest' etc......







Your version of the 'truth' is quite amazing too......



Big statement this, from a known boner



Question for you then, would this profound statement of yours still be as 'truthful' as you say if



1) Jorge Lorenzo was riding a Honda?



and



2) Valentino Rossi was also riding a Honda?



BTW I'm not really interested in your answer as it is as predictable as the sunrise





My point is, seeing as everyone seems to be missing it, is that it is impossible to place a 'Fastest' label on anyone due to the nature of this sport, 'Best across a season' is a more apt term, and is what matters most and what is remembered.

And citing Stoner as the main reason for Honda's success this season is more than a little fanboyish at this stage.......

Talpa said:

Why not? He is the 'Fastest', shouldn't be too hard at all then? He should have killed them in Portugal, perfect conditions, great grid pos, if he his the indisputable 'Fastest' etc......

Your version of the 'truth' is quite amazing too......



Big statement this, from a known boner

Question for you then, would this profound statement of yours still be as 'truthful' as you say if



1) Jorge Lorenzo was riding a Honda?



and



2) Valentino Rossi was also riding a Honda?



BTW I'm not really interested in your answer as it is as predictable as the sunrise

My point is, seeing as everyone seems to be missing it, is that it is impossible to place a 'Fastest' label on anyone due to the nature of this sport, 'Best across a season' is a more apt term, and is what matters most and what is remembered.

And citing Stoner as the main reason for Honda's success this season is more than a little fanboyish at this stage.......

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Calling stoner the fastest or best rider in 2011 is premature, but this is not what you were arguing, which was that pedrosa was the fastest rider.



The rest is more of your usual prejudicial selectively argued tosh. I actually thought valentino's 2009 championship was one of his better ones against stiff competition, but I guess he can't have been the best or fastest rider that year because he only finished 4th at estoril and jorge won.

michaelm said:

Calling stoner the fastest or best rider in 2011 is premature, but this is not what you were arguing, which was that pedrosa was the fastest rider.



The rest is more of your usual prejudicial selectively argued tosh. I actually thought valentino's 2009 championship was one of his better ones against stiff competition, but I guess he can't have been the best or fastest rider that year because he only finished 4th at estoril and jorge won.

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Saved me the typing - cheers

michaelm said:

Calling stoner the fastest or best rider in 2011 is premature, but this is not what you were arguing, which was that pedrosa was the fastest rider.



The rest is more of your usual prejudicial selectively argued tosh. I actually thought valentino's 2009 championship was one of his better ones against stiff competition, but I guess he can't have been the best or fastest rider that year because he only finished 4th at estoril and jorge won.

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I wouldn't say that Rossi was the 'Fastest' in 2009 at all, he was the 'best across the season', which is my point once again! Rossi wasn't the 'fastest' in 2009 as at many circuits he was well beaten, just as Stoner already has been this year. So stating that a rider is the 'Fastest' is essentially very silly.



Pov and others are stating that Stoner is the 'Fastest' in 2011 and this is not the case, which is what I was arguing, not that Pedrosa is the 'Fastest', just that he was much faster than Stoner in Estoril on the same bike with injury, therefore making it impossible to claim that Stoner is the 'Fastest'. Got it yet??

Talpa said:

Looking at Portugal, one would certainly not state this. You would state that they already had the fastest rider, who smacked the field injured.

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Please explain how this is not a statement that dani is the fastest rider, without qualification, due to his performance at a single race.



You then went on to strongly imply that stoner, or perhaps any rider, winning on this year's honda would be winning because of the bike (which apparently rides itself, what a novel idea, and proven subsequently to be wrong when previously applied, oddly to a bike ridden by the same rider), that simoncelli's performances vs lorenzo were proof of the marked superiority of the honda despite him not finishing ahead of jorge in any race, and that dovi's performance at one race where lorenzo was injured (having previously invoked injury for dani) and on his spare bike, was also proof of this; the honda is quite likely superior, but not for these reasons.



I don't resile from saying your posts, or at least any which concern stoner, are prejudicial and selectively argued, your only consistency being in not giving stoner credit. Accusing others of being prejudiced because of your assumption as to how they will answer your very hypothetical question concerning the possible performance of jorge lorenzo and valentino rossi on bikes they are not riding and will likely never ride is an interesting line of argument which some might consider demonstrates prejudice on your behalf. Riders can only ride the bikes they are on, and all 3 of stoner , lorenzo and rossi are where they chose to be, and were chosen to be by their teams for that matter; btw this further begs the question of why honda signed stoner if your view of him is correct.

Interesting how one incident can precipitate such diametrically opposing viewpoints - granted, not usually two dozen threads about the same thing (and spawn 200 new members in the process).

Nonetheless, from the annals of the PS vaults, this amused me and also reminded me how much this board misses the excellent Andy Roo.

MdubSTYLIE said:

C'mon Tapls, give Casey a break for once. Who doesnt want to punch a Frenchmen?

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- I had to laugh ... again

It's also interesting to read Talps stance on the Stoner/RDP incident compared to the Rossi/Marquez one...

Always good to see proof that Talps has a nice long history of making unfounded statements.

Talpa said:

Stoner deliberately reached out at speed and punched Randy in the back!! Imagine if Rossi had done this to someone! If it was Stoner receiving it Mickm would be in a mental hospital by now with Baz! And PS would have gone into meltdown.

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Boy, you predicted the week following Sepang 2015!

This was deliberate physical violence attempting to harm the other rider, yes Randy could have fallen off, yes Stoner could have fallen off, and the pair of them could have caused the other rider in the vicinity some issue as well. All from a deliberate act! Not a mistake, but deliberate intent at serious speed. There is no defense for this, and some here truly are the most bias of any fan.

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Funny how you don't share the same stance for Rossi when he's done exactly the same thing...

#22 said:

Boy, you predicted the week following Sepang 2015!

Funny how you don't share the same stance for Rossi when he's done exactly the same thing...

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Don't worry 22, he'll have some moronic reply for you followed up with his idiot hashtag #lookatmewhenimtalkintoyouson

Don't you know, it's different when it's Rossi...everyone is out to get him bro...especially the people here.