Physical Violence on Track

michaelm · Nov 5, 2015

Dr No said:
Agree in part to the sentiment.
But gagging riders will just put this sport further into tge clutches of the corporations.

I suspect you are right.

There seems to have been rather more criticism of Valentino over this sequence of events than anything else he has ever done to my mind though, even if this is still exceeded by criticism of MM.

#22 · Nov 5, 2015

Dr No said:
Agree in part to the sentiment.
But gagging riders will just put this sport further into tge clutches of the corporations.

Dr No · Nov 5, 2015

Let me take this 180deg from CBs post (which was a good 'un)
Institute full whistleblower protection on all in the paddock.

Complete pie-in-the-sky. But worth the thought experiment.

Dr No · Nov 5, 2015

Edit for ....... dubble.

Cool Blue · Nov 5, 2015

Dr No said:
?...But gagging riders will just put this sport further into tge clutches of the corporations.

What's your view on how it would do that?

I don't see it as a gag by the way, but yeh, I'm not overly clued up on who's up who in the MotoGP zoo.

SlartyBartFast · Nov 5, 2015

IMO gagging riders is definitely not the way to go. I don't think anything said by any of the riders has damaged the sport. I also don't think Rossi's tactics on track has done any harm to the sport. Just look at the interest generated. The damage was done only when Race Direction showed their hand to the world and refused to black flag Rossi.

Dr No · Nov 5, 2015

Cool Blue said:
What's your view on how it would do that?

I don't see it as a gag by the way, but yeh, I'm not overly clued up on who's up who in the MotoGP zoo.

By providing further credence to the idea that riders should be "circumspect" about what they say. With the possibility that even greater restrictions will be written into their contracts.

Cool Blue · Nov 5, 2015

SlartyBartFast said:
IMO gagging riders is definitely not the way to go. I don't think anything said by any of the riders has damaged the sport. I also don't think Rossi's tactics on track has done any harm to the sport. Just look at the interest generated. The damage was done only when Race Direction showed their hand to the world and refused to black flag Rossi.

If the proposition for sponsors is less attractive or if the audience and therefore media revenue for the hosting organisation is reduced, then it's bad for the MotoGP TV show.

Cool Blue · Nov 5, 2015

Dr No said:
By providing further credence to the idea that riders should be "circumspect" about what they say. With the possibility that even greater restrictions will be written into their contracts.

Well, my point is that the complaint that Rossi had should be handled internally first and then, after that fine, he can say whatever he wants. I'm talking about people involved in the sport respecting the governance systems in it. I understand that those internal processes are currently not effective and that the current regulations are ridiculously vague and I think that is the other side of the coin that is required in order to establish an effective code of conduct.

Regarding the corporations or sponsors or whatever... They already have the whole thing by the balls coz they pay the bills, but it's in their commercial interests not to do anything to piss off the fans or make the spectacle less attractive but, at the same time, they need to protect the value of their brand. So, it's a balancing act.

SlartyBartFast · Nov 5, 2015

Cool Blue said:
If the proposition for sponsors is less attractive or if the audience and therefore media revenue for the hosting organisation is reduced, then it's bad for the MotoGP TV show.

Is Valencia sold out?
Record viewing numbers anticipated?
Any exposure is good exposure?
"Audience revenue" will be good.

Gaz · Nov 5, 2015

Riders should not be gagged in terms of what they can say as processes exist to handle the slanderous commentary that may occur.

But, that does not mean that a rider should not consider that which they say as sometimes, the audience is wrong for the comment or the time is wrong for the comment (or any other notion we may have)

As with all comments, timing and delivery (including body language) play a big part in whether a comment is accepted or ridiculed

Cool Blue · Nov 5, 2015

SlartyBartFast said:
Is Valencia sold out?
Record viewing numbers anticipated?
Any exposure is good exposure?
"Audience revenue" will be good.

The revenue will be the same because the media distribution is pre-sold.
Valencia ticket buyers are core fans, which is great, but that's not enough to pay the bills.
Regarding "there's no such thing as bad publicity", maybe you're right mate, I don't know. The scenario I'm concerned about is if Rossi retires, leaving a fiercely polarised fan-base and the integrity of the competition seriously damaged. What would happen? I don't know but I'm suggesting its a big enough risk to warrant reforms.

Keshav · Nov 5, 2015

Hey, maybe Rossi will have his pal paint up a special limited edition commemorative helmet that ironically epitomizes this infamous turn of events.

SlartyBartFast · Nov 5, 2015

Yeah bud I understand what you're saying, I just think it was Race Direction who were responsible for damaging the integrity of the competition, so if there are any reforms, they should be aimed at themselves, not the riders. In saying that, I still think people will watch the competition regardless of how badly Dorna performs. After all, they still watch American wrestling.
As for Rossi's retirement, Moto gp will be fine without him. Maybe even fairer, but even when he stops racing he will ensure we all see his ugly mug on telle every race weekend. Unfortunately we are all stuck with him for the next fifty years.

Cool Blue · Nov 5, 2015

SlartyBartFast said:
Yeah bud I understand what you're saying, I just think it was Race Direction who were responsible for damaging the integrity of the competition, so if there are any reforms, they should be aimed at themselves, not the riders. In saying that, I still think people will watch the competition regardless of how badly Dorna performs. After all, they still watch American wrestling.
As for Rossi's retirement, Moto gp will be fine without him. Maybe even fairer, but even when he stops racing he will ensure we all see his ugly mug on telle every race weekend. Unfortunately we are all stuck with him for the next fifty years.

Absolutely agree, I guess I didn't explain it well but, you can't put restrictions on riders if there is no proper process in-house: the pressure will just build and something has to give. I'm talking about reforming the internal processes and then backing that up with a code of ethics regarding media statements. But anyway... it's just blah blah blah really. Nuff said.

Hmmm, I think maybe you have something there with the wrestling... Imagine the audience you would get if one guy was wearing a cape and he was allowed to pluck another guy off his bike and body-slam him into the deck, then follow up with a few fake knee-drops to the helmet. Interesting

Talpa · Nov 5, 2015

#22 said:
Yamaha are simply saying the same as Honda...a statement based without proof. So neither is 100% right.

It's not Rossi haters, I for one agree with your criticism of Stoner in the original post. However, you cannot criticise Stoner then absolve Rossi of criticism for doing something arguably worse.

Arguably worse?

Gaz · Nov 5, 2015

Talps, if I remember that correctly RdP did not crash as a result of the actions of Stoner

Now to Sepang, Marquez did crash

So yes, arguably worse than Stoner (and many many others over the years, but perhaps not as bad as some)

Edit. Actually, were this done today I suspect that RdP and Stoner would both get 1 penalty point on their licence. RdP for being slow on the racing line as CS often complained of but was called a whinger - funny how things change, and CS for his low level action (and before you assume the worst, I stick by my initial penalty that should have been received by CS)

Talpa · Nov 5, 2015

Arrabbiata1 said:
????

I must confess to being somewhat bemused. 'Good try'? - I'm not with you Talpa. I was browsing back through the archives trying to find something from the same year and I spotted this - the title of which seemed quite apt. We've already brought up parallels to this incident so there was no need to resurrect it for any other reason that the title and some of the old members present. Furthermore, I was impervious to the fact that you had started the thread although I do recall your outrage at the time.

There will always be 'opposing views' Talps, but just because your affinities lie with that camp it should not automatically and uncritically make them absolute or right to you, no matter what level of affirmation you seek. In the words of Wilde, 'truth is rarely pure and is never simple'. Why does everything have to be so contrary, so confrontational, polarised and tribal? Why does this obsessional, fanatical fandom compromise objectivity? The hysterical reaction since Sepang, the confirmation bias and the levels of cognitive dissonance by the disciples of what is indeed tantamount to a cult - desperate to accommodate vindication for Valentino's actions, would make Festinger himself spin uncontrollably in his grave. As I have maintained for years now, Valentino is bigger than MotoGP and that's not a healthy situation for either the sport - or evidently his 'fanbase'. Look no further than Evolution's asinine comments and the deranged members that have signed up over the last fortnight which epitomise Rossimania - (and it is precisely that, manic).

As a complete neutral, neither a 'fan' of Rossi or Marquez, but someone who cares passionately about this sport and marvels at the talent of all its participants, my opinion seems to differ to yours. Marquez was agressive, but within the rules. We've seen Vale do precisely the same. Marquez is not a title protagonist, but he was racing possibly the champion elect. Again we've seen Vale do the same - and we've heard him defend his actions, so let's immediately dispense with that 'Laverty's Law' ......... There's often a reason that things remain 'unwritten'.

'No kick, no physical violence' - I disagree with you. I don't believe he ran Marquez wide to take him down, but when they made contact, as I saw it, he irritably lashed out. Neither you or I will ever definitively know what was occurring in Valentino's head - and I would urge you not to draw conclusions from the P/R platitudes and spin echoing from the Yamaha camp. For a character so historically disingenuous and insincere as Valentino, it was exceedingly difficult to disguise his culpability in Parc Ferme. He was subdued, very coy, and elected to be interviewed with his sunglasses on. He knew what he'd done and he knew what lay ahead - just as he possibly regretted his undignified comments in the Thursday press conference. The fact that he wasn't black flagged was a travesty and further confirmation of the preferential treatment that has always favoured him for the large part of his career.

Finally, since you evidently started this thread, re-acquaint yourself with the fury and evident loathing that you directed over an internet racing forum at Casey Stoner. Had this been Casey or Marc that had precisely followed the actions that we saw from Valentino and had succeeded in putting Rossi on the deck your rage would be so incandescent you wouldn't need an internet connection. Moreover, you and your ilk would be forensically dissecting this through a gazillion posts, hundreds of threads and arguing the case for your deity from a diametrically opposite viewpoint. You certainly wouldn't be claiming 'no kick no physical violence' because your viewpoint is subjectively skewed. Meanwhile, the rider that had brought Rossi down - either hypothetically Marc or Casey and their families would now be under 24 hour armed guard and police protection. And this damn petition - is as ludicrous as it is disturbing.

Your Rossi bias always been immeasurable Talps, but irrespective of that you are as valuable a member of this forum as anyone else and a presence that I am particularly appreciative of. It was not my intention to deliberately spite you or to be facetious in anyway. And you are wrong, this wasn't 'pointless'...nothing Roo ever posted on this forum was 'pointless.'

The only post worth responding to with a resonable amount of effort, Rossihaters.com is in overdrive at the moment, you can rely on the gang to come in and smash any would be pro rossi member

I believe you were imperviuos to the fact I started this thread when digging it up as much as I believe Marc Marquez is an all around good clean fair racer

Once again the use of opposing views as a term to describe this place is interesting. Scrolling though the pages of thread after thread here I see 5-6 members posting overwhelming amounts of Rossi hate filled mostly ........ posts based on their skewed opinions. Something for which I cannot find an equal to anywhere online, as I do most of my seriously posting elsewhere these days.
You may call this balanced if you agree with most of the sentiment, however its looks far from balanced to me, and most who have a opposing POV when it comes to Rossi are clever enough to not bother posting here-I'm still not too clever it seems....

Why indeed? The reaction here on the Anti- Ross /Pro-Marc is just as fanantical, tribal, inept, insane, confrontational and polarized as anywhere-only here its just to piss on Rossi-For most of the small number of regular tossers here are happy to brush over any other riders deeds no matter the severity as long as its against Rossi or to somehow vindicate their loathing for Rossi-despite the hypocrisy involved. A cult indeed, however to be considered a cult you need at least certain number of members

The new Deranged members, wow, if they shared the overwhelming Anti Rossi sentiment with just as inept commentary I seriously doubt you'd call them out, as you haven't called any of the rossihatersclub out for their utter asinine remarks about the 'kick' and various other malicious rubbish which has proven to have no merit. So you obviously believe the Rossi kicked Marc? Despite race direction, Yamaha, Rossi, many, many commentators and highly respected Jouros, riders, ex-riders stating he didn't-Or the utterly moronic theory that the CAS appeal was setup by Dorna to fix the result and have the punishment removed while keeping their noses clean and aiding Rossi to win-that worked out well. Subjectively skewed viewpoint perhaps?
BTW-there was no Kick-No physical violence-check the video I posted above, looks like a good solid punch in the back at 80mph to me.

'Subjectively Skewed' is a very interesting term to be used in this forum-I don't think I've read more subjectively skewed posts anywhere, and with the likes of 'crash net'-this is saying a lot. I suggest you look no further than Jumkie's assinine 'Murder Marc' thesis and now the subsequent hypocrisy, or JPScuntus's 'your a Rossi fan so you must beat up you wife' on top of post after post of Rossi Hate filled rubbish with .... all to back it up but subjective opinion, and where were the haters for most of the season? Came out of the woodwork after Sepang-good chance for nice circlejerk with old friends.

I think you may need to check the post count-it is not me racking up the posts
, and I certainly wouldn't be posting much here if Rossi was taken out by someone as I know, even as I waste my time now, it is folly.

And again, if I choose to believe a world class rider, or a respected journos opinion over a person who posts on a forum (even if those posts are as well contructed and articulate as yours) known to nuture, develop and encourage the anti-rossi POV, that is my right-call me crazy?

#22 · Nov 5, 2015

SlartyBartFast said:
As for Rossi's retirement, Moto gp will be fine without him. Maybe even fairer, but even when he stops racing he will ensure we all see his ugly mug on telle every race weekend. Unfortunately we are all stuck with him for the next fifty years.

This is how I see Rossi in 50 years:

Talpa said:
Arguably worse?

Arguably, the key word. In your opinion as a Rossi fan and Stoner hater yes. However, the issue is you are trying to excuse Rossi for his behaviour while calling for Stoners head on a spike in your OP. A premaditated incident during a race is worse.

michaelm · Nov 6, 2015

Talpa said:
The only post worth responding to with a resonable amount of effort, Rossihaters.com is in overdrive at the moment, you can rely on the gang to come in and smash any would be pro rossi member

I believe you were imperviuos to the fact I started this thread when digging it up as much as I believe Marc Marquez is an all around good clean fair racer

Once again the use of opposing views as a term to describe this place is interesting. Scrolling though the pages of thread after thread here I see 5-6 members posting overwhelming amounts of Rossi hate filled mostly ........ posts based on their skewed opinions. Something for which I cannot find an equal to anywhere online, as I do most of my seriously posting elsewhere these days.
You may call this balanced if you agree with most of the sentiment, however its looks far from balanced to me, and most who have a opposing POV when it comes to Rossi are clever enough to not bother posting here-I'm still not too clever it seems....

Why indeed? The reaction here on the Anti- Ross /Pro-Marc is just as fanantical, tribal, inept, insane, confrontational and polarized as anywhere-only here its just to piss on Rossi-For most of the small number of regular tossers here are happy to brush over any other riders deeds no matter the severity as long as its against Rossi or to somehow vindicate their loathing for Rossi-despite the hypocrisy involved. A cult indeed, however to be considered a cult you need at least certain number of members

The new Deranged members, wow, if they shared the overwhelming Anti Rossi sentiment with just as inept commentary I seriously doubt you'd call them out, as you haven't called any of the rossihatersclub out for their utter asinine remarks about the 'kick' and various other malicious rubbish which has proven to have no merit. So you obviously believe the Rossi kicked Marc? Despite race direction, Yamaha, Rossi, many, many commentators and highly respected Jouros, riders, ex-riders stating he didn't-Or the utterly moronic theory that the CAS appeal was setup by Dorna to fix the result and have the punishment removed while keeping their noses clean and aiding Rossi to win-that worked out well. Subjectively skewed viewpoint perhaps?
BTW-there was no Kick-No physical violence-check the video I posted above, looks like a good solid punch in the back at 80mph to me.

'Subjectively Skewed' is a very interesting term to be used in this forum-I don't think I've read more subjectively skewed posts anywhere, and with the likes of 'crash net'-this is saying a lot. I suggest you look no further than Jumkie's assinine 'Murder Marc' thesis and now the subsequent hypocrisy, or JPScuntus's 'your a Rossi fan so you must beat up you wife' on top of post after post of Rossi Hate filled rubbish with .... all to back it up but subjective opinion, and where were the haters for most of the season? Came out of the woodwork after Sepang-good chance for nice circlejerk with old friends.

I think you may need to check the post count-it is not me racking up the posts
, and I certainly wouldn't be posting much here if Rossi was taken out by someone as I know, even as I waste my time now, it is folly.

And again, if I choose to believe a world class rider, or a respected journos opinion over a person who posts on a forum (even if those posts are as well contructed and articulate as yours) known to nuture, develop and encourage the anti-rossi POV, that is my right-call me crazy?

I don't think Rossi deliberately kicked MM, and have said so several times. He did however make a non-racing/illegal move (as Race Direction, who have imo shown leniency to both riders in the past, but have hardly previously shown themselves to be Rossi "haters" or are at all likely to be under instructions from Dorna to act prejudicially against him, found) which led to MM crashing and taking no further part in the race, and him gaining a place. I would agree that Rossi is by far the less dangerous rider in general. I also agree with Kropotkin's shorter more blunt take (than on his own site) on the whole circus on this forum, ie Valentino lost his mind in the pre-race press conferences, MM basically rode like a dick, and Valentino in response lost his mind again and took MM out, and that any suggestion that Valentino (or Dorna for that matter) could corruptly influence CAS is ludicrous.

You are very obviously a genuine fan of the sport, and with good reason also a fan of Valentino's, but again demonstrate the double standards also prevalent among far less informed Rossi fans which is what started all the "Rossi-hating" as you call it in the first place. I don't think bumping this thread was very relevant, but it does demonstrate that hatred of other riders, and Stoner in particular, was rather prevalent in the past. Yes, Valentino's offence was worse, he caused a crash and took a rider out of a race. I don't think either he or Stoner were intentionally dangerous, and obviously neither did cause harm; the danger in both cases was only inferred, just as strongly by you in regard to the RDP incident as it was by Jumkie in regard to the current incident, before his character reformation a few days ago anyway. Your attitude to provocation would seem to be rather different now as well; Stoner's provocation was an attempted combined involuntary manslaughter/suicide attempt by RDP, and his action in the heat of the moment, whereas Valentino's was to a rider racing him legally, if provocatively, after he had it would seem deliberately impugned that rider.

Stoner did deserve a penalty, you can't contact riders even mainly symbolically and remonstratively, and if he had been given a more severe penalty he would have had no cause for complaint. However the relativity of the penalties for this offence by Stoner and the current Rossi thing are about right imo, if you give Stoner a back of the grid penalty for what was a practice incident then Valentino deserved a ride through for a race incident, and the Willairot incident which resulted in significant injury which was rather luckily not more severe should have resulted in a race exclusion or exclusions imo.

Btw, as Gaz says, even if he could and should have prosecuted his case differently, Stoner has been rather vindicated on the danger of differential speed thing, with rules since instituted to address the issue.

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