Physical Violence on Track

Arrabbiata1 said:

There are all manner of survival techniques which you amass over the years to try and anticipate the actions of other drivers - but I can honestly say given some of the .... that's been pulled on me by oblivious car drivers nothing would surprise me anymore

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Anticipate is the key word here....you soon learn to make a habit of perpetually scanning for any anomaly ahead, behind and to the side.



If only it was mandatory for all car drivers to do 6 months probation on a bike before they were granted a car license...we would have far more skilled drivers on our roads with a heightened appreciation for survival instincts.

Mr Squiggle said:

Anticipate is the key word here....you soon learn to make a habit of perpetually scanning for any anomaly ahead, behind and to the side.



If only it was mandatory for all car drivers to do 6 months probation on a bike before they were granted a car license...we would have far more skilled drivers on our roads with a heightened appreciation for survival instincts.

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I think they do that in sweden.

BarryMachine said:

You truly are a cocksucking dickheaded ...... Rog. ....... you've done it again ..... I'm actually sick of your manipulative tripe.



RDP and Stoner speed difference estimated at over 100kph ....... if you think thats nothing go stand out on your ole M1 there with a pair of rollerblades on ( cos thats about what its like when some cock does something stupid on a racetrack )



Then ride beside someone and try and punch them even remotely hard

You truly are a couch bound, blouse wearing , sookassed prick. ...... If you do do the roller skate thing ....... tell me I want to drive by you

Fu#%#^'n leotard wearing ..... boy manipulative whinging prick.



You are now wankng on about that planking crap ...... here's a more apt speed related Aussie phenomena for you to ponder:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/02/3152514.htm



thats what happens with human bodies and vehicles going over 100kph



Even Mohamed Ali couldn't do that to PeeWee Herman in half an hour of punching at him

now quit the sooking at anything Stoner and go buy a keg of Industrial strength poultry testosterone ....... and scull it!!

Any other wuss's who don't see that the possible outcomes of what RdP did are ten times ( to "death" ) worst than Stoner even trying to punch as hard as he could ........ take a walk with Reg. along a major freeway would you

Can't believe this idiotic crap ..... its ok to knock someone off a bike but punch them after they nearly killed you ..... "oh dear we can't do that"..... not that I think thats all that "blousy" but its the manipulative girly way that Rog. uses that I find abhorrent.



Ok I don't think Stoner should have punched him ..... but when I think about it I think about it meh I can undrstand that it happened .... anyway the two of them have it sorted ...... besides What with RdP living out here a bit I'm sure they will need to get over it as they have.

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So does that mean you are against Stoner being fined orrrrrrrrr.?.?.?.?.? I am confused.

Mr Squiggle said:

Anticipate is the key word here....you soon learn to make a habit of perpetually scanning for any anomaly ahead, behind and to the side.

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That's only half the job. When some .... does pull in front of you, you also have an obligation to not commit a crime - be it road rage on the bike or an assault in the paddock. Something should be done about de puniet doing silly things on the racing line but stoner should ride with a sense of self preservation as well. You can't go through all traffic in practice/qualifying sessions at warp speed and not expect to have near misses.

chopperman said:

Im the same mate. Ive booted plenty of doors in my time

but im not a professional on the world stage and neither are you so we get a free pass

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You do raise and interesting point Rog, that regarding the fact that Stoner is a professional but should the same also not apply to the other riders?

Should the expectation of (in this case) RdP also not be higher than the average road user in your ecample as RdP should be adjudged by the same loftier standards as CS should he not?



Alternately, a motorcycle courier is a professional, so if Stoner cannot respond with anger or remonstrations, what of other professional motorcyclists, or what of the club racer, are they allowed to remonstrate, why should they be different?



For my way of thinking there are two issues involved, one being the 'look' or visual which I see as 50/50 in terms of ongoing effects as I doubt it would have 'damaged a brand' in any way, the second of course is safety issue and I am sure we can agree that these riders are more skilled than the average and as such can do things on a bike we cannot.



In the general populace we get a great variation in skills, attentiveness and awareness, all of which will mean that we can never ‘trust’ another road user and nor should we. However a racetrack is a controlled environment with all riders headed in the same direction, all aware of their obligations on the track, all riders should be quick, all riders are aware of the dangers of mistakes (and all have suffered in one way or other), yet these incidents still occur. Why?

Mr Squiggle said:

You can actually get arrested in the UK for photographing a copper now....Orwell was right after all - just a few years early with his predictions.

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Have been threatened with that in NSW after photographing a place radar trap whereby the officer was hidden behind shrubs and did not have the signage up that the law required (was in the days of police camera cars).

A few of us stopped to take pics as we were all involved in a local road safety situation when the officer in question stormed from his car threatening arrest, charges etc, he was not happy. A chat ensued, more threats from him so we simply provided him our details, obtained his and advised him that we would contact the local HWP commander on the Monday – afterall, the HWP Commander was in our mobile phones as he was on the same committee we were. Nothing happened.

MdubSTYLIE said:

So does that mean you are against Stoner being fined orrrrrrrrr.?.?.?.?.? I am confused.

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Dub, I took it that Baz had put his underwear on to tight and that they may have knotted up somehere.

Well that or he partially disagrees with Rog.











Gaz

Arab. ................. On the cars pulling out on you now try it at an approach speed difference of 200kph How can you guys possibly sit their and try to relate road riding to whats happens in a race



Mdub ........... kinda sorta ......... not sure on it yet, its the wussy fan reaction I dislike, like Reg. and his panzy assed ignorance of the reality of the speeds involved and then using in his personal vendetta against anything Australian. The whole fine stoner only for the incident smacks again of "its all for the TV", and now it appears that it is so at the cost of the actual riders safety. If their were very few watching and it was one of those series run for the riders .... I'm sure the outcome would be different.

However, I actually think some of the dawdlers will have their eyes opened over this as well.



On the fine I'm thinking it should have been 1000 for Randy ( and keep fining till riders get it right ) but for Stoner stick with the 5000 cos the FIM are supposed to handle it ..... which they aren't ....... so F me I don't know .......... all I know is it will be .... if one of them gets killed and it could have been stopped.



Maybe Dorna should even instigate a boxing ring so that they go at it after the race and decide for themselves how much they felt endangered ....... at least up until the FIM does something about the dawdling on the track.

The scary thing is they could introduce practice sessions with fewer bikes per session ........ though that in itself has a plethora of problems and "unfairnesses".



Until then it would be nice for some folk to remember that Tomizawa was killed at a much lower closing speed than that which Stoner was approaching Randy ....... he wasn't on a highway or backroad somewhere he was on the straight of a racetrack doing almost 300kph .........

woody996 said:

you can't go through all traffic in practice/qualifying sessions at warp speed and not expect to have near misses.

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Why do you think they have the warm up then? There is little point to having practice, qualifying or warm up if riders are not allowed to go at warp speed. The sighting lap and post -race I would agree are different which is why magee was largely at fault in the shobert incident, there was no reason for him to be riding so fast.



Julian ryder whom I would concede may be something of a fan defended stoner saying that his attitude is consistent, and that he makes a distinction between avoidable danger and race incidents, and whilst peeved accepted the jerez thing as a race incident where rossi made an error.



Loitering on the raceline in one of the fastest sections of the track then moving at the last instant has potentially very serious consequences, and there is no reason to do it. In races riders if they have problems get way from that line immediately if they can, and in some circumstances particularly in qualifying riders are sometimes pushing as hard or even harder than in a race and the same should apply.

BarryMachine said:

Arab. ................. On the cars pulling out on you now try it at an approach speed difference of 200kph

How can you guys possibly sit their and try to relate road riding to whats happens in a race

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I think you miss the point I was trying to make Baz.



I am not in any way comparing the two scenarios of road riding and circuit racing but rather how individuals react to having someone pull out in front of them and put their life/health at risk.



I am sure many of us have had this happen whilst riding on public roads and I think most people would probably tend to react in an aggressive way to this type of behaviour.

Talpa said:

"French MotoGP pole starter, Casey Stoner, has been fined 5000 Euros by Race Direction for lashing out at Randy de Puniet during morning warm-up at Le Mans.



After almost hitting the back of a slow-moving de Puniet on a straight, Stoner gave the Frenchman a 'what are you doing?' punch on the shoulder as he pulled alongside.



The cruising de Puniet had looked back shortly before Stoner arrived, then moved to the right, straight into the path of the fast-moving Stoner.



de Puniet either didn't see Stoner, thought he was heading to his left or that he was far enough in front of the Australian.



Either way, Stoner clearly felt that de Puniet had acted dangerously, hence his anger, but Race Direction decided that taking physical action was a greater crime. de Puniet seems not to have been punished.



Despite the incident, Repsol Honda rider Stoner was fastest by half a second during the warm-up session and will be chasing his second victory of the season this afternoon."







I believe extreme measures need to be employed to curve this consistently appalling behavior from Stoner. With all the talk of dangerous riding and the focus on Sic, for me Stoner was by far the most dangerous man out on track at Le Mans.

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Geez Talps! I generally find your posts to be reasonably well written and sane (even though I typically disagree), but this is pure unadulterated nonsensical Bopper hyperbole!



RdP was rightly put off and Casey was surely an ass for his behavior but I suspect Danny would sternly disagree with your assertion here.

woody996 said:

That's only half the job. When some .... does pull in front of you, you also have an obligation to not commit a crime - be it road rage on the bike or an assault in the paddock. Something should be done about de puniet doing silly things on the racing line but stoner should ride with a sense of self preservation as well. You can't go through all traffic in practice/qualifying sessions at warp speed and not expect to have near misses.

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Why not?



Seriously.



This is a race track and as such it is by design intended as a place for people to (in this case) ride their motorcycles at speeds that would have them locked up were they to do the speeds on a public road. More to the point, this was a race weekend and as such all riders on the circuit should be experienced and knowledgeable enough to know that the aim of the weekend is speed, maximising the vehicles good points whilst minimising it's bad to attain a track lap time that surpasses all others. Then do it again next lap, and so on until the race is over, thus finding a bundle of settings that allow maximum speed, with minimal effort yet allowing the consistency to do this for 28 or so laps.



All riders should be doing this as their aim and yes, whilst some will at times on the track go below a race pace for a specific reason, it is also very incumbent upon those riders to ensure that they can do so with safety of themselves and others.



Whilst it is probably true that the riders fully know that at some point they will encounter substantially slower riders throughout their laps and the race weekend, but it is not their role to 'know' that these slow riders will swerve onto the fast line, or take any action that will impede them (accidentally or deliberately). The ultimate responsible is that of the slower rider to ensure that they are not placed by their actions into a dangerous situation and by extension place others into danger.



In this case (IMO) RdP made an error in judgement that had ramifications that thankfully were not as severe as they could have otherwise been and while the actions of CS are one aspect, the consistent issues with slow riders on line does need to be addressed and one suspects may well be after the weekend just gone.



Simply and succintly, it is a racetrack and those that do not want to use it as such should be back in the pits.



I use the parrallel of the track or ride day for the average joe. How often do you read in forums, or hear of people who whinge, whine and carry on about the slower riders in their 'group', those riders that hog the fast lane or wobble more that Oprah Winfrey's thighs?



I said my peace on the CS actions eslewhere and will not change the opinion nor deviate from it, but for me the aspect of RdP's actions (and I mean the action not the instance itself) need to be addressed immediately to avoid future issues of this or an accidental nature.



















Gaz

michaelm said:

Why do you think they have the warm up then? There is little point to having practice, qualifying or warm up if riders are not allowed to go at warp speed. The sighting lap and post -race I would agree are different which is why magee was largely at fault in the shobert incident, there was no reason for him to be riding so fast.



Julian ryder whom I would concede may be something of a fan defended stoner saying that his attitude is consistent, and that he makes a distinction between avoidable danger and race incidents, and whilst peeved accepted the jerez thing as a race incident where rossi made an error.



Loitering on the raceline in one of the fastest sections of the track then moving at the last instant has potentially very serious consequences, and there is no reason to do it. In races riders if they have problems get way from that line immediately if they can, and in some circumstances particularly in qualifying riders are sometimes pushing as hard or even harder than in a race and the same should apply.

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Michael,



If you take another look at my post, I didn't say they shouldn't travel at warp speed. Yes that is the point of qualifying. I said that coming into traffic, it needs to be reevaluated. Sometimes it will be ok to go through at high speed - i.e. traffic is off racing line, riders clearly looking at you, only one bike not five. Othertimes, caution needs to be taken because regardless of how professional and how good a rider everyone is, people are human and stuffups will happen. Sure you can minimise them 99% of the time, but that other 1% could be the last thing the rider does.



I have an issue with what De Puniet did and steps should be taken to stamp it out. They can't do it retrospectively but starting now they should change the regulations so it is clear, hold a rider briefing of the new rules and then strictly implement with a big stick for doing the wrong thing.

levigarrett said:

Geez Talps! I generally find your posts to be reasonably well written and sane, but this is pure unadulterated nonsensical Bopper hyperbole!

RdP was rightly put off and Casey was surely an ass for his behavior but I suspect Danny would sternly disagree with your assertion here.

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Oh contrare Levi!! I can picture Talpa sitting on his couch cringing in pain as Casey pumelled Randy into oblivion, and Talpa had to watch that horror, then try and get on with his workaday life with that image of pure violence confronting him at every step ........... Dani on the other hand already has a broken collarbone, so now he has a matching set ....... Talpa is likely thanking Simo for this

Gaz said:

Why not?



Seriously.



This is a race track and as such it is by design intended as a place for people to (in this case) ride their motorcycles at speeds that would have them locked up were they to do the speeds on a public road. More to the point, this was a race weekend and as such all riders on the circuit should be experienced and knowledgeable enough to know that the aim of the weekend is speed, maximising the vehicles good points whilst minimising it's bad to attain a track lap time that surpasses all others. Then do it again next lap, and so on until the race is over, thus finding a bundle of settings that allow maximum speed, with minimal effort yet allowing the consistency to do this for 28 or so laps.



All riders should be doing this as their aim and yes, whilst some will at times on the track go below a race pace for a specific reason, it is also very incumbent upon those riders to ensure that they can do so with safety of themselves and others.

Gaz

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See my post in response to Michael. In principle, yes the rider should be able to go round the track uninhibited at high speed all day long because anyone who is on the track is either flying or off the racing line and always looking to make sure they know what is coming. In practice, although massive improvements can be made from where we currently are, evasive action will always be required to be taken by various riders because mistakes will happen.

woody996 said:

Michael,



If you take another look at my post, I didn't say they shouldn't travel at warp speed. Yes that is the point of qualifying. I said that coming into traffic, it needs to be reevaluated. Sometimes it will be ok to go through at high speed - i.e. traffic is off racing line, riders clearly looking at you, only one bike not five. Othertimes, caution needs to be taken because regardless of how professional and how good a rider everyone is, people are human and stuffups will happen. Sure you can minimise them 99% of the time, but hat other 1% could be the last thing the rider does.

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He did have enough time, or was good enough, to brake in time although for a split second he thought he didn't. The point is he shouldn't have had to brake severely, or go wide as he did with aoyama in qualifying, when there was no reason for those riders to be where they were.



I don't know how much warning he would have had of de puniet and bautista, I have seen the video but I don't know where he was on the track, only that it was one of the fastest sections of the track, where there perhaps could be a reasonable expectation of him going, well, fast . In the qualifying incident with aoyama I watched the whole lap live, it was in the last 10 minutes of practice and he came around a blind corner to find aoyama loitering in the first part of the straight on the racing line; I also suspect they try and time fast qualifying laps, and pole laps in particular, according to traffic.

woody996 said:

See my post in response to Michael. In principle, yes the rider should be able to go round the track uninhibited at high speed all day long because anyone who is on the track is either flying or off the racing line and always looking to make sure they know what is coming. In practice, although massive improvements can be made from where we currently are, evasive action will always be required to be taken by various riders because mistakes will happen.

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Not a problem Woody, you were doing your response whilst I was typing mine, doh!

woody996 said:

I have an issue with what De Puniet did and steps should be taken to stamp it out. They can't do it retrospectively but starting now they should change the regulations so it is clear, hold a rider briefing of the new rules and then strictly implement with a big stick for doing the wrong thing.

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I could not agree more and this is what I basically alluded to within the race thread itself when I put my post up.



In the case of CS' infringement they had a recent precedent, whereas with regards to the actions of RdP there has been no recent precendent (the last may actually be 2006 when Stoner himself was fined 1000 euro for impeding Pedrosa).



Irrespective, the overall fact remains that riders going slow on the racing or fast lane during practice/qualifying is an issue and has been for a while yet no actions had been taken by Race Control despite complaints from numerous riders. That said, their inaction has contributed to the recent action (by deference of having done nothing) and as such they now must act.



Thus for me, starting at the next GP they need to issue a clear directive in writing and verbally at the Riders Briefing to all riders of their obligations and make this public, including a full press release of the written statement, including an admittance that 'times are to change'. Then they need to follow that up and I would go so far as to say they need to find an instance to penalise (be proactive rather than reactive), making public each and every occurence and the penalty applied.



Then, and only then will riders consider the ramifications of their actions and take steps to minimise them as I genuinely believe that the vast majority of instances are simple brain farts with no sinister or alternate intentions.



Hopefully something good will come from the recent situation and we will in future be talking less about this kind of stuff.







EDIT: Additionally I would suggest that the FIM/Whomever may need to look at the implementation of an additional flag that is used in non-race situations only to indicate a slow moving vehicle on the track. In some of the recent car meetings I have done (following my banishment from bikes ) they use a waved white flag to indicate slow moving traffic and a yellow only to indicate stopped vehicles.



I suggest this as many situations may well be averted if a rider knows there is slow moving traffic ahead or alternately use a flag to the slow rider to say get off the racing line (ie a blue indicating faster rider approaching)













Gaz

Mr Squiggle said:

As I have previously stated and I will reiterate again Stoners antics were totally unjustifiable.



However, to put it into perspective I would like to ask Talpa a simple question and I would be very interested in his response...





So Talps....have you had an experience on the road where some ....... pulls out in front of you in his mobile comfort zone

whilst you are riding along minding your own business, thus

putting your life or well-being at risk from sheer negligence - it

scares the .... out of you and I can tell you the first reaction is

that you want blood...it is a perfectly natural thing to feel anger

at the stupidity of what just occurred so I can relate to this

reaction - even so I do not condone any act of physical violence.



Has it happened to any of you guys at all and if so what was your response to this situation?

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yes I have squig, many times, not once though have I resorted to physical violence agaisnt any of them, i have reported dangerous driving to the police several times, one of which was actually acted on and the offending git was officially warned.



That being said, this is the road I'm referencing, full of millions of variables. Stoner is a professional road racer competing in the highest level motorcycle racing organization on the planet, his actions are inexcusable and the incident should be further reviewed.



I completely agree that there is a large issue with riders dicking around on the racing line, this has been happening for years though and pretty much every other competitor over the years has worked around it and not resorted to punching a competitor at speed.



Randy was in the wrong via a mistake, Stoner was in the wrong intentionally, and one has to wonder how bad it was for Casey as he managed to slow no problems..... and then land a ... on

Randy. It was actually quite a feat!



Now sic was punished, right so, but his punishment was no doubt compounded because of his record. Stoner has quite a history of bad behaviour in fp and qp, and no doubt this added to butlers decision to act. However, in racing we don't tend to see to many deliberate acts of physical violence and my point is that this incident needs to be highlighted more to completely stamp out behaviour like this.



Some hypotheticals;



What if Randy lashed out and hit stoner back knocking stoner off his bike and causing him an injury which left him unable to compete on Sunday? It could have happened quite easily.



What if Randy reacted with greater surprise and wrenched the throttle sending the bike out of control into Stoner and the pair of them crashed and were injured? This also could have happened.



I agree that most 'resonable' members have stated that Stoner was wrong in his actions and deserved his punishment, however $5000 isn't exactly going to break the bank for Casey and unlike the ride through that sic received, stoner punishment do not affect his challenge for the title. In fact, Stoner is quoted as saying that it was the best $5000 he's ever spent, for getting race direction to act, hardly a punishment for deliberately dangerous behaviour.



What will be interesting is if this incident changes anything in regards riders on the racing line in fp and qp.



Btw, nice to see you contributing something now.......

So children what have we learned from this...



Rog has risen to a new level of idiocy, with the Talpa no doubt agreeing with him. According to Rog upon discovering randy on the racing line at 150k+ closing speed stoner should have perhaps chosen to use option A:



"In a situation where some moron pulls out in front of you do you

A. Ignore it, pull back to a safe distance as this person has shown how stupid they are, so feel in the interest of yours and every other road users safety its best to keep your distance."



You are a ....... classic Rog!

BarryMachine said:

Arab. ................. On the cars pulling out on you now try it at an approach speed difference of 200kph

How can you guys possibly sit their and try to relate road riding to whats happens in a race

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I don't - and that wasn't my intention. I was solely referring to it in terms of my reaction given a situation when on a bike I have been violated by careless road users - because right or wrong I have lashed out. In such cases the end result could have still been Arrabbiatta in a pine box - so we our still talking in terms of our own mortality. You are saying that you can't really equate the relative speeds on the road to the racetrack, and in general I agree - although Casey did just that when he was interviewed on the grid by Matt Roberts - perhaps so that the viewers could relate to it in terms they understand. He gave the example of that heart in the mouth moment when you have been speeding on the motorway and someone changes lane in front of you at a quarter of your speed - (but was quick to distance himself from speeding in any way - obviously not wanting to court anymore controversy that weekend. Actually can you imagine the protests which would have been spawned out of Bopperdom on here!! threads screaming 'First, actual bodily harm....now Casey condones speeding on the public highway').



I have on occasions, on our Queens Highway seen an indicated 185mph - which even given speedo inaccuracy is possibly nudging 170mph. Very silly - and I know full well such speeds don't belong on public roads, but in the process have passed the odd vehicle in another lane travelling at about 40 - 50mph. I have I might add, tended to do this in the absence of other traffic and where I can see ahead for miles, but actually do have some conception of relative closing speeds and the implications of this.



In truth I have found some track days far more worrying, where unlike racing there is very little understanding of race ettiquette, racing lines, and a huge disparity within groups in their riding experience and capabilities.

So arrab, could you have slowed enough at those speeds on her majestys motorway in time to land a punch? With carbon brakes of course......thus was the frightening reasoning stoner used for his reaction.



It was an excuse to deflect his guilt of what was an idiotic act.

Talpa said:

So arrab, could you have slowed enough at those speeds on her majestys motorway in time to land a punch? With carbon brakes of course......thus was the frightening reasoning stoner used for his reaction.



It was an excuse to deflect his guilt of what was an idiotic act.

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If someone changed lanes in front of me at that speed I would be culpable and fully to blame for the consequences for doing such an inappropriate speed and putting other drivers at risk. When your closing speed is something in the region of 130mph it doesn't give a road user in another lane - invariably with the reaction times of a gastropod anyway - much time to respond, let alone see you.



Here I think you have to return to understanding the reaction. Having to take evasive action irrespective of the speed - it scares you - and as a result you can respond with anger. If I've been pulled on out by someone who wasn't paying attention distracted on a mobile phone and I've had to swerve or brake very heavily, I've always lashed out - usually punched the window or booted a door out of sheer fury and because of that heart in the mouth moment. Casey didn't expect Randy to drift into his path and as a result of this was forced to hit the brakes. I understand his indignation, and he hit out in the heat of the moment, where perhaps he should have remonstrated with RDP...but that's often not what happens. The punch was wrong, I am not disputing that, and I don't think that the incident was as close as Casey likes to portray it, but I do understand his reaction.