***Phillip Island Race ** SPOILER**

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dazza @ Oct 14 2007, 10:03 AM) [snapback]95150[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Why did Haystack kick his leg out before his bike gave up? Looked like he was trying to kick Pedroboy off LOL but I'm guessing its their secret language, Okay mate I'm fvcked you can pass!


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63306

Dropped Valve apparently...

A comentator said that this is a begining of a new era.... i.e. Stoner era.

going back to the stone®age...

I don't think tyres were a big issue today other than giving the added interest to make the event more exciting. Shame Hayden's bike went - he looked well up for it. Must've wanted to repay Stoner for laguna. The fact is though - Stoner's too good here. I go along with peoples points re development - casey comes across as very critical to the slightest imperfection and it's paid off! Rossi clearly underestimated what was needed this season and is going to need to give a lot more to yamaha to get the...

...big response he wants in return from yamaha to bounce back next year. Who could blame Rossi though - he's been so dominant for so long.
Race was obviously nothing compared to the 125s/250s - but then that's nothing new.

Shame chaz had to retire - n e 1 have more info on this?

I completely agree with what Stoner said in an interview pre race about being upset with other riders who have had the dominating brand of tyre then the going gets tough for 1 season and they want to jump ship. The losers!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dazza @ Oct 14 2007, 07:03 PM) [snapback]95150[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Why did Haystack kick his leg out before his bike gave up? Looked like he was trying to kick Pedroboy off LOL but I'm guessing its their secret language, Okay mate I'm fvcked you can pass!


No secret I rmember when it was hands up when you have trouble so you didn't get a bike and rider suppository. The leg off on the safe side ( o/taking side ) is a bit safer than hand up when you are still doing above 100 on a bike thats dying.

Must admit I admire Hayden with regard to signals, he seems a real dilligent guy when this stuff happens .... obviously very clever safteywise.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pirkkalan GP @ Oct 14 2007, 11:52 AM) [snapback]95165[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I don't think tyres were a big issue today other than giving the added interest to make the event more exciting. Shame Hayden's bike went - he looked well up for it. Must've wanted to repay Stoner for laguna. The fact is though - Stoner's too good here.


But Rossi won this race many times and Pedrosa in 250 so i don't see anything other than the tyres holding them back.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Oct 14 2007, 11:29 AM) [snapback]95170[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
But Rossi won this race many times and Pedrosa in 250 so i don't see anything other than the tyres holding them back.


Their bikes are not very good this year, and stoner's is. Stoner has also got better, which can happen when you are young.

I am sure that the tyres are contributing though, and it is still very premature to put stoner on the same pedestal as rossi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pirkkalan GP @ Oct 14 2007, 12:52 PM) [snapback]95165[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I don't think tyres were a big issue today other than giving the added interest to make the event more exciting.


Of course the tires didn't play any role. Hayden just decided the fight with Stoner was boring and found a fourth was a much better position to fight for and raised the lap-times accordingly. But then the engine broke down and he got an even better position.
Same with Rossi and Pedrosa. They also decided fighting for third were more suitable and let Capirossi pass them as they themselves let the laptimes raise a second or two.

This is all obvious and it was sooo exciting :-/

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>
Shame Hayden's bike went - he looked well up for it. Must've wanted to repay Stoner for laguna. The fact is though - Stoner's too good here. I go along with peoples points re development - casey comes across as very critical to the slightest imperfection and it's paid off!


Especially in the start of the season whe the rider impact of the engine development was most clear. I'm trully impressed how Stoner helped develop the engine parts and electronics that created the fastest bike by a margine. I mean, it must be there he did it because the relation between the teams and bikes has been realtivly static all through the season. Just like in he first race the Ducati steals two or three tenths over the main straight.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>

Rossi clearly underestimated what was needed this season and is going to need to give a lot more to yamaha to get the...

Yes, it's truly a huge disapointment that Rossi didn't do more to create a better engine and better tires. Clearly his fault and his underestimation to do. Or was it his uninspired and medicore riding you ment?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>

I completely agree with what Stoner said in an interview pre race about being upset with other riders who have had the dominating brand of tyre then the going gets tough for 1 season and they want to jump ship. The losers!


big words from the guy who jumped LCR after just one year. If you don't rememeber it was a very disapointed team manager he left there. In the process he also left Michelin for Bridgestones.

His comments on this are truly his worst ever and I hope we won't hear that kind of comments to often. (not that I <u>really </u>care, i'm not a fan of motorsport for the riders speaches)
It's not like Michelin didn't get warnings. Besides, when being on the dominant brand you expect to get the best. Michelin is a quite a bit from fulfilling those expectations. It's just like the Honda riders expect to be on the best bike, and rightfully so. To go to better equipment has nothing to do with jumping the ship. I think it's more problematic if the factory team end up with two different brands of tires. But then again, maybe they go for a Yamaha special and plan for Rossi and Edwards to work together and keeping the team differences just for show.

Now, all this might sound negative and pro Rossi and in a way it sure is, it's my knee jerk reaction. But my actual point is that neither Rossi or Stoner had anything to do with how well their engines worked and how their tires worked, and that's the two parts that has been debated. If anything Rossi forsaw problems as he was critical to Michelin last year.

To say that this race was not at all about tires is denying the facts shown in your face. I'm not saying Stoner would have been beaten, but maybe, just maybe, we would get one of those fantastic fights that previous seasons was full of.
And
The development of the bikes over the season has not seen any real change at all, the basics stands as Ducati is fastest and Bridgestones can take wear better and Stoner is still the winning rider.

All this said I want to congratulate Stoner with another fantastic and flawless race. Again he proved he is a worthy champion. That Ducati/Brigestone is the perfect package for him doesn't take anything away from him. He obviously works very well with his team and the factory and credit to "the rookie" for help keeping the Ducati just as competetive all through the season. But again, let's not go totally over board. Some here sounds like Stoner bulid the engine or pushed the bike around the track to victory.
The superhuman Stoner doesn't exsist just as little as the superhuman Rossi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pirkkalan GP @ Oct 14 2007, 10:52 AM) [snapback]95165[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I don't think tyres were a big issue today other than giving the added interest to make the event more exciting.


Rossi said it himself after the race to the BBC - the tyres just did not last, and in the last 10 or so laps he got less and less grip, especially on left hand turns. Or this is just excuses from this 7 times world champ 'looser'?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Babelfish @ Oct 14 2007, 09:50 PM) [snapback]95174[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Of course the tires didn't play any role. Hayden just decided the fight with Stoner was boring and found a fourth was a much better position to fight for and raised the lap-times accordingly. But then the engine broke down and he got an even better position.
Same with Rossi and Pedrosa. They also decided fighting for third were more suitable and let Capirossi pass them as they themselves let the laptimes raise a second or two.

This is all obvious and it was sooo exciting :-/



Especially in the start of the season whe the rider impact of the engine development was most clear. I'm trully impressed how Stoner helped develop the engine parts and electronics that created the fastest bike by a margine. I mean, it must be there he did it because the relation between the teams and bikes has been realtivly static all through the season. Just like in he first race the Ducati steals two or three tenths over the main straight.

Yes, it's truly a huge disapointment that Rossi didn't do more to create a better engine and better tires. Clearly his fault and his underestimation to do. Or was it his uninspired and medicore riding you ment?
big words from the guy who jumped LCR after just one year. If you don't rememeber it was a very disapointed team manager he left there. In the process he also left Michelin for Bridgestones.

His comments on this are truly his worst ever and I hope we won't hear that kind of comments to often. (not that I <u>really </u>care, i'm not a fan of motorsport for the riders speaches)
It's not like Michelin didn't get warnings. Besides, when being on the dominant brand you expect to get the best. Michelin is a quite a bit from fulfilling those expectations. It's just like the Honda riders expect to be on the best bike, and rightfully so. To go to better equipment has nothing to do with jumping the ship. I think it's more problematic if the factory team end up with two different brands of tires. But then again, maybe they go for a Yamaha special and plan for Rossi and Edwards to work together and keeping the team differences just for show.

Now, all this might sound negative and pro Rossi and in a way it sure is, it's my knee jerk reaction. But my actual point is that neither Rossi or Stoner had anything to do with how well their engines worked and how their tires worked, and that's the two parts that has been debated. If anything Rossi forsaw problems as he was critical to Michelin last year.

To say that this race was not at all about tires is denying the facts shown in your face. I'm not saying Stoner would have been beaten, but maybe, just maybe, we would get one of those fantastic fights that previous seasons was full of.
And
The development of the bikes over the season has not seen any real change at all, the basics stands as Ducati is fastest and Bridgestones can take wear better and Stoner is still the winning rider.

All this said I want to congratulate Stoner with another fantastic and flawless race. Again he proved he is a worthy champion. That Ducati/Brigestone is the perfect package for him doesn't take anything away from him. He obviously works very well with his team and the factory and credit to "the rookie" for help keeping the Ducati just as competetive all through the season. But again, let's not go totally over board. Some here sounds like Stoner bulid the engine or pushed the bike around the track to victory.
The superhuman Stoner doesn't exsist just as little as the superhuman Rossi.



Agree with just about all of it.
However the tyre situation seems to change from race to race.
Sometimes Bridgestone is quicker and sometimes Michelin is.
Assen, Mugello & Germany for instance were Michelin tracks.
Even in this race Melandri dropped right back to 10th and West lost about 4 places after their tyres went off as well. So not all the Bridgestone guys had no trouble with tyre degradation.
I do however think Michelin needs to improve their wet weather tyre as Bridgestone are ruling in the wet.
In my opinion the main problem Vale is having is the Yamaha lacks grunt.
Has done from Qatar and it hasn't really improved in top speed where as Honda certainly have improved in that area. This means at around half the seasons circuits he has been at a distinct disadvantage. The only way He's been able to make up for it is to brake later than everyone else.
I think he needs to get on Yamaha's back not so much Michelin.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Babelfish @ Oct 14 2007, 11:50 AM) [snapback]95174[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
To say that this race was not at all about tires is denying the facts shown in your face. I'm not saying Stoner would have been beaten, but maybe, just maybe, we would get one of those fantastic fights that previous seasons was full of.

The superhuman Stoner doesn't exsist just as little as the superhuman Rossi.


I basically agree with this. Even for a stoner fan, the catalunya race was much better than PI or laguna, at least in retrospect (after stoner had won).

Nobody is superhuman, but rossi is closer to it than most, and stoner fans are obviously hopeful that stoner can aspire to this status.

Stoner has never trashed luccio cecchinello, just honda and michelin whom he feels (rightly or wrongly) were not giving him and luccio the same support as some of their other clients.

Notwithstanding this, I agree with you that rossi and everyone else are obviously entitled to try to get whatever tyres they think are best for them, and stoner should accept this and stop whinging about it.

end of day stoner was THE FASTEST no matter what. start, middle and end.

yeah the others maybe able to do 1 or 2 fast laps, but not consistantly.

his morning warmup was simply amazing pushing out consistant low 1.31 and 1.30's, was really demoralising when he is consistantly 0.4secs faster a lap.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinky @ Oct 14 2007, 12:49 PM) [snapback]95179[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
end of day stoner was THE FASTEST no matter what. start, middle and end.




Nobody said he wasn't. What is your point?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinky @ Oct 14 2007, 01:49 PM) [snapback]95179[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
end of day stoner was THE FASTEST no matter what. start, middle and end.

yeah the others maybe able to do 1 or 2 fast laps, but not consistantly.

his morning warmup was simply amazing pushing out consistant low 1.31 and 1.30's, was really demoralising when he is consistantly 0.4secs faster a lap.


yes stoner was on fire again, ducati came out with such a monster of a machine this year im wondering how much room they left for improvement if any???? im also wondering how long it will take the other manufacturers to play catch up??,
i noticed honda was almost hanging in there with the duke so its getting better.
loris hasnt had a good setting all year it just shows what he can do when the bike is rite, why did yam not use the pneumatic engine??? it was clearly needed there it got peed on by the honda and the duke on the straights.
the rules should stay as they are, michelin should get off there fat lazy ... and start making good rubber or it will be another mockery again next season, like i said have michelin been dominating for so long they took this season for granted and they are just gettin lazy?? its hit them hard how good the stones are this season so im glad they have had a wakeup call, i just want the racing back, it was looking prommising until michelins candyfloss tyres started to fade its a joke.

congrats to duke tho for possition 1&2, hayden looked very annoyed i thought he was going to give his honda a beating when he got off the bike lol, the michelins were smoking so early they obviously cant handle more than a few laps its just not funny anymore.

Rossis Yamaha was reeeeeally slow on the main straight today. I'm surpsired Yamaha haven't done more improvements in that area this late in the season.

I say tyres was an issue in this race just like it as has been in many races this year. Rossi clearly had the speed early on and set the fastest lap of the race, then with about 10 laps to go he dropped like a stone. Why can't Michelin give him good tyres so he can fight to the end for once?

And I think Stoner should stop whining and let Rossi choose whatever tyre he wants. Why doesn't Stoner welcome the challenge? He now has the chance to show the world that he can beat Valentino on the same tyre.

I was pleasantly surprised by this round. Great conditions and a great few opening laps. Lots of passing and fast riding early on. Everyone settled in during the middle, then came the late pushes.

Probably the most entertaining race of the season when the winner was not in question.

Too bad for Hayden. Normally, I'd be pissed but this season is a complete write-off as a fan. He looked like Vale from last year, mild tire problems coupled with an engine let go.

The only thing that really frustrated me was Pedrosa. I really can't stand to see the guy go round the track anymore. He is one of the most unprofessional riders on the grid. I've never seen someone so good ride with such a constant nervous panic (since maybe Biaggi). He's not alone RDP, Elias and Pedrosa are all pretty bad. At least Elias looks cool while making a fool of himself

Really though, Pedrosa is getting old. Every time he gets passed he panics that he is going to lose touch with the leader. Rossi passed him, 20 seconds later Dani is wobbling while missing an apex by 5 meters trying to charge a windmill, and Melandri gets by. I was willing to let it go until he hit Hayden last year, now every time he rides like an ......., it just gets stored in my memory bank. Why can't the kid learn how to manage a race like the other men on the grid?

Too bad for him, he's clearly got the pace to be a great rider, but he hasn't got composure to save his life.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fred00 @ Oct 14 2007, 03:25 PM) [snapback]95196[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
And I think Stoner should stop whining and let Rossi choose whatever tyre he wants. Why doesn't Stoner welcome the challenge? He now has the chance to show the world that he can beat Valentino on the same tyre.


the way i see it, stoner is not narked about rossi wanting b'stones, he is narked that rossi is using his status to unfairly bring about change to suit rossi only...
by this i mean that dorna will listen to rossi whenhe says michelins are crap, i want b'stones but they wont suppl me so we must go to a single tyre ruling so i can win again...
would dorna listen as intently if say makoto tamada said the same thing about dunlops?

thats where i think the beef lies, rightly or wrongly.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fred00 @ Oct 15 2007, 12:25 AM) [snapback]95196[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Rossis Yamaha was reeeeeally slow on the main straight today.

Why can't Michelin give him good tyres so he can fight to the end for once?

He now has the chance to show the world that he can beat Valentino on the same tyre.


yeah its a shame Rossi's equipment suppliers are so second rate!! and they make such poor product!!

Same tyre!!?? that would be a silly thing ... that would be even nore detrimental to the Rossi cause !! .... I mean take Stoner out of the championship and its clear that the Michelins are a far better tyre ... So I can only assume that if we then put Stoner back in, with Michelins on, he would be winning by even more!!


You know I think there are merits when a rider quits at their peak now .... in the future we may find companies paying out riders to quit .... I mean as it stands now many are saying Its not Rossi that is not winning ... its Yamaha and/or Michelin ....this must translate into dollars lost for them for sure, so really it would have been, moneywise, better for them to have quit on a high andnot be seen as the "reasons" Rossi is not winning.

Re Babelfish... looks like well be agreeing to disagree on a few things still

My words were tyres didn't play a big role - meaning they didn't decide the race like the feeling has been this season. I didn't say "exciting" I said interest - how Melandri and West went flying backwards on their superior bridgestones (I can do sarcasm too) was interesting. We obviously agree the race wasn't exciting


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Babelfish @ Oct 14 2007, 02:50 PM) [snapback]95174[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
But my actual point is that neither Rossi or Stoner had anything to do with how well their engines worked and how their tires worked, and that's the two parts that has been debated.

.... But again, let's not go totally over board. Some here sounds like Stoner bulid the engine or pushed the bike around the track to victory.


To say rossi and stoner haven't had anything to do with how well their engines/tyres work is something I will not agree with. However I think I was wrong and put too much emphasis on Stoner's feedback. It's guessing to say that infact - likewise you are guessing - as only the rider/team know the involvement and importance of various elements. Obviously Ducati are responsible for building sucha quick bike. It does however make sense to me that Stoner's feedback has been very helpful (your guess doesn't agree with this perhaps). My comment about rossi needing to give more was another guess and no doubt wrong and said out of spite cause I'm annoyed with Rossi right now (as I don't want single tyre series and don't like this attempt from him (honda too - tho they are already my most disliked manufacturer) to force bridgestones when they haven't agreed to supply them. Also think he should give it another season to see if the tyres, that have been so good for him in the past, will improve or not).

Jumping ship...didn't Stoner only get the Ducati ride after others rejected it? I was very critical of Stoner at the time - thought it was a mistake because of too much change. I was wrong there. But I didn't see it as jumping ship because the first year didn't go well. In hindsight it was obviously taking advantage of an opportunity that arose, fortunately, due to others actions.

I've been wanting Rossi to beat Stoner all season and catch to win the championship but it's clear Stoner's too good - which was one of my main points. Giving credit to a guy I've disliked all season (he'll still dnf in Malaysia tho)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mylexicon @ Oct 14 2007, 03:39 PM) [snapback]95198[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>

The only thing that really frustrated me was Pedrosa. I really can't stand to see the guy go round the track anymore. He is one of the most unprofessional riders on the grid. I've never seen someone so good ride with such a constant nervous panic (since maybe Biaggi). He's not alone RDP, Elias and Pedrosa are all pretty bad. At least Elias looks cool while making a fool of himself

Really though, Pedrosa is getting old. Every time he gets passed he panics that he is going to lose touch with the leader. Rossi passed him, 20 seconds later Dani is wobbling while missing an apex by 5 meters trying to charge a windmill, and Melandri gets by. I was willing to let it go until he hit Hayden last year, now every time he rides like an ......., it just gets stored in my memory bank. Why can't the kid learn how to manage a race like the other men on the grid?



I must admit your massive and unreasonable bias against Pedrosa is getting old. I mean, you claim hes in a panic all the time based on what? His bike being a bit lose at times. We see plenty of other riders making just as many, or more race errors (Hayden included) and its fine. You call him unproffessional, could you actually back that up with a fact?