Pedrosa's attitude

How many Hayden fans are there around here, so far i count two, and one of them is me.

As for the 250 riders, i think the 250cc racing is a better way of nurturing and/or manufacturing fresh motogp talent than any other method. But if a rider is talented enough they will make their way to gp no matter where they start.

Yeah, 250 riders have the track experience, riding style and exposure that makes it a bit easier for them. But It won't win races for them. 250s might be an easier way into MotoGP, but only the cream of them will make it in MotoGP.as wondering a bit about the rider supprt demographics on the site, Tom. Shall we look into it?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Jan 17 2007, 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Would I be ok in saying WSBK guys are more talented? Or do I get a mob of 250 guys explaining why 250's are more complex to ride than 'tractors'?

Of course, I get the examples of Bayliss and Edwards thrown into my face.


Oi! Bayliss won a race!



And by the way, the term hedgetrimmer/lawnmower/leafblower bike lovers use for Superbikes is "Big Desils"... I think

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 16 2007, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Bottom line is, Hayden was superior to valentino in 2006. So its kool to compare two riders when there careers are over and complete, but that is not the case. So for now it is more releveant to look current situation, go read your yearbook and you'll see who the champion is.

Couldn't have been better said Tom.

Only the totally blind Hayden fans believe Hayden is technically superior to VR. It is easy to be a fan of someone when your rider is technically the best on the grid. So when your rider is the technically the best and somehow he can't win the title that means all you diehard fans need to eat some humble pie because your boy didn't get it done and he was the favorite to win. So why attack the guy who did win the championship. Just face the facts that your boy didn't get it done this year. (Sounds like something Hayden would say). Sometimes times though the will to win and the determination to win outweighs technical ability.

I'm usually just a lurker hear but I figured I would chime in since I heard you were wondering where the Hayden fans were and I had to support my boy RJ.

-Crazy
www.myspace.com/crazyc803

Staying on topic:

Maybe some pictures can help explain my point instead of words...

Pedrosa attemps to explain the many questions after Portugal. (See if you can guess which one was asked by Puig)
What were you thinking? What made you think you could pass? Why didn't you see if your teammate was ok? Did you realize your teammate was leading the points? Are you aware of the 1st rule of racing? That was a great move, how is your little finger?
1107:attachment]

Now we know where Hayden learned to punch the gravel.
1109:attachment]

Mierda!
1108:attachment]

Hollywood ending....
1110:attachment]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jan 17 2007, 08:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What were you thinking? What made you think you could pass? Why didn't you see if your teammate was ok? Did you realize your teammate was leading the points? Are you aware of the 1st rule of racing? That was a great move, how is your little finger?

-Although slim, pedrosa was still actually in with a chance of the title, and obviously believed he could win that particular race. that being the case, i would have been dissapointed if he layed back and let others get points over him, hes a racer afterall.

-Also i genuinely believe that it was not Dani intention to make a move at that corner, watch the replay on youtube, Dani is miles back, grabs the break and the rear wheel lifts, to counter this he of course had to let off the breaks a tad. At that point he was gaining on hayden and would have found himself commited to a pass already. It was still a stupid mistake at a stupid time, but i personally don't think it was a passing attempt.


"Would I be ok in saying WSBK guys are more talented?"

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here phleg. I think that in the past, superbike riding has actually proven itself to be a superior training ground for future gp stars, but recently with chassis and tire technology moving foreward so quickly, 250cc experience has become a lot more relevant and perhaps now better.

But as far as the the Talent of the field as a whole, i'd say 250 gp's is a more challening and more intense championship to be a part of than world supers. With so many top level riders on works bikes capable of winning races in 250, compared to a handful of gp rejects in superbike land, i reckon it speaks for itself

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 17 2007, 01:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i genuinely believe

As much as neither of us know the truth, your guess is as good as mine. "I genuinely believe" the opposite is true about Pedrosa.

Also, about WSBK, I think the riders are much better as a whole than 250 riders. The 250 field has much more riders that don't succeed in GP than the ones that do. But for the ones that do have success, its not a coincidence that they succeed in MotoGP, afterall, they practice several years for the read thing. Not the case with WSBK as you compared some of their performances when they moved to GP. How do you explain Bayliss' win at Valencia?

Bayliss is a lot better than the other superbike boys and i don't doubt that. Also i will concede a blow to my argument in the example of roby Rolfo, he was a 250 championship contender, and now look. However, this brings me back to my point from earlier. I think rating the quality of a series against another by how well they do in mtogp isn't the most accurate way. And i do feel that untill very recently superbikes experience has been more valuable to riding in motogp. This is beggining to change with the obsession of bringing riders in early though, because it does take a little wile for the imported superbike riders to learn the track and settle down in the gp paddock, not to mention the added challenge of achieving enough superbike success to be worthy of gp's without being too old.

Let me ask you this, in the near-ish future, what superbike, national or world riders do you feel will make their way to gp's, i think the list is shorter than the list of guys from 250's, but you may disagree

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 17 2007, 09:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let me ask you this, in the near-ish future, what superbike, national or world riders do you feel will make their way to gp's, i think the list is shorter than the list of guys from 250's, but you may disagree
I reckon Kiyonari for sure. Not too sure about Haslam, it's possible, but didn't he turn down an offer from D'antin this year?

Fabrizio is one thats always interested me. I think hes one of these guys who isn't outright fast but could develop into a decent GP rider, if a team where to build a good comfort zone around him.

I'm not so sure about kiyo. I used to be more hopefull, but i just think hes been in britain a long time now, and his progression hasn't been as fast as i would've hoped. We will have to see how he deals with his championship defence but i couldn't predict either way just yet. I reckon Haslam will get to Gp's soon, i think he is the best rider Britain has to offer right now (the nation not the racing series).

But my point remains, the list of 250 riders who can make that step soon is huge, maybe about 6 riders long. And after what happend to bayliss in gp's it would seem that you really do need to be head and shoulders above the rest to have what it takes for gp's

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 17 2007, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let me ask you this, in the near-ish future, what superbike, national or world riders do you feel will make their way to gp's

I think you are assuming that GP is the pinnacle of motorcycle racing talent. It would be true if all the best racers were in GP, but then again they are not. I also don’t necessarily think, as you have suggested before, that MotoGP is the pinnacle of motorcycle racing. Though for arguments sake, it is generally accepted as the F1 of motorcycle racing. I don't necessary think so. I do think that MotoGP is most technological of motorcycle racing, but not necessarily the pinnacle of motorcycle racing. Do you understand the distinction I’m making? In other words, the most technologically advanced bike in the world, to me, isn’t the single parameter that I see as the pinnacle of talent in racing, for me, perhaps taking a production machine and beating everybody else who is on a machine much more analogous (similar) to what the others are racing on the grid. I’m thinking, the bikes are much more analogous in National (i.e. AMA) and WSBK than they are in MotoGP. So for the champion to win under these circumstances, to me is admirable. Having said that, to answer your question, naturally the 250 riders are more a shoe in on GP as the WSBK super sport riders are to WSBK, and the AMA super sport riders to AMA SBK. So I would look to successful young riders in these support classes to win the premier class of their respective series to perhaps make the move over to MotoGP.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 17 2007, 10:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not so sure about kiyo. I used to be more hopefull, but i just think hes been in britain a long time now, and his progression hasn't been as fast as i would've hoped.
I do fear that Kiyo might end up Honda's ....., going wherever they tell him, a bit like Ukawa. It would be a shame because I think Kiyo could be a great rider. I think I read in Racer he wants to be in MotoGP and he said soon he would be moving to WSBK (might have been 2008, I can't remember). He could be a good GP rider, but its all a bit unknown, I don't like to judge on his 2003 performance because of the tragic circumstances that surrounded it, I don't think the team would have been performing to their full ability that year. I know its off topic, but Sete will always have my respect for his performance that year, unbelievable under the circumstances.

As for Haslam I'm not sure. He's always seemed to me to be a bit overrated, living off his dads name, but this year he did well. He could flourish but I think he needs to make the move sooner rather than later.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 17 2007, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But my point remains, the list of 250 riders who can make that step soon is huge, maybe about 6 riders long. And after what happend to bayliss in gp's it would seem that you really do need to be head and shoulders above the rest to have what it takes for gp's
This is only true because the 250 guys are given preferential treatment. But look at a few names: Colin, Hopkins, Hayden. Neither of them raced 250s.

Now look at these names: DePuniet, Elias, Stoner. Did. So what do you conclude? It sounds like you conclude that the 250s are inherently better. But I don't think so. The fact that these guys ride around the same tracks is such a great advantage that to the un-analyzing onlooker, it sure seems like the 25o guys are better. But the fact is, they just have more experience on the series that they want to move up to, period.

Interesting point.

Firstly i am not assuming that motogp is the pinacle of motorcycle racing talent, i have thought about this and the conclusion i drew was that it is actually as good as it gets.

I am not trying to take away from superbike racing because of course it is admirable. But i'd say the demands on a rider, mainly on the mental side of motogp go far beyond what a superbike series does, and the mind afterall is where the talent comes from.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 17 2007, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am not trying to take away from superbike racing because of course it is admirable. But i'd say the demands on a rider, mainly on the mental side of motogp go far beyond what a superbike series does, and the mind afterall is where the talent comes from.
Yeah, on second thought I do recall you saing something along those lines.

But to the other issue regarding the mental aspect between riders in their respective series, I think it un-debatable. I mean, who is to say the mental stress is any more or any less on riders in either series. Don’t their sponsors and factories expect/demand success at every form of national or international competition?

Yes indeed, like all of the best debates it all boild down to our perception, because we don't actually know. And as a result we cannot truly be right or wrong, we can just agree to disagree.

This argument could be aided when a rider has won both world superbikes and motogp (its damn well better be james toesland), and someone will ask him which was harder.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 17 2007, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This argument could be aided when a rider has won both world superbikes and motogp (its damn well better be james toesland), and someone will ask him which was harder.
Well for now you can ask Nicky Hayden that question about AMA SBK and MotoGP.