The most important fact is Rossi was managing to do 21s in the race, Barry.
That was Stoners pace without qualifiers.
That was Stoners pace without qualifiers.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 22 2008, 05:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In reality. I think Rossi got lucky at Laguna .... we know Stoner was ill ( stomach bug ... hence the comments about him really having the ..... LOL ) ...... hence why his times were worse on the Sunday ...... hence Rossi could get near him in the first place ...... otherwise it would have been Pedrosa nearer Stoner .... if indeed Pedrosa bothered to come
ANyway its a good way to go into the last half of the season Rossi has to defend Stoner has to fight to win ..
Actually that was last race, ie Sachsenring AFAIK. Unless the tummy bug lasted two weekends, but I never heard Stoner mention it at Laguna.....
Great race - shame it didn't last until the last lap. Age and treachery (Rossi and Burgess) won this time. Expect Stoner to learn some moves from this though. Other than the corkscrew off-track error from Rossi I thought all the passes were clean.
On topic - the tv "on-board" stuff is, as you have said, just pretty graphics. I doubt it bears any real relation to the relative throttle/braking actions of Rossi's Yam vs Stoner's Duke.
ANyway its a good way to go into the last half of the season Rossi has to defend Stoner has to fight to win ..
Actually that was last race, ie Sachsenring AFAIK. Unless the tummy bug lasted two weekends, but I never heard Stoner mention it at Laguna.....
Great race - shame it didn't last until the last lap. Age and treachery (Rossi and Burgess) won this time. Expect Stoner to learn some moves from this though. Other than the corkscrew off-track error from Rossi I thought all the passes were clean.
On topic - the tv "on-board" stuff is, as you have said, just pretty graphics. I doubt it bears any real relation to the relative throttle/braking actions of Rossi's Yam vs Stoner's Duke.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 22 2008, 11:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not odd at all Tom, if you think about it, electronics are programmed to do a certain thing. Rossi was getting out of the corners better, but only because he was running a block on Casey. Had Casey had open track in front of him, he'd have been much faster. The TC in Casey's ride seems to hiccup when he has to chop the throttle mid corner, hence why Casey is struggling in traffic.
What type of nonsense is this? Judging from your avatar picture, you ride, so you should know better...
You cannot chop the throttle on the bike mid corner at 50 degrees plus of lean angle, or you will lowside instantly! You will transfer way too much weight to the front tyre!
What type of nonsense is this? Judging from your avatar picture, you ride, so you should know better...
You cannot chop the throttle on the bike mid corner at 50 degrees plus of lean angle, or you will lowside instantly! You will transfer way too much weight to the front tyre!
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Craig3089 @ Jul 23 2008, 01:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>me too barry, on the playstation.
Nup ... mine was a real ride .... a Kriedler 50
Now that was a real formula!
...... the only formula where the finding the right line meant trading off corner arc with gradient of the track on that arc
Oh and the wind! ..... it seemed as if a headwind could halve the speed of a downwind run
Nup ... mine was a real ride .... a Kriedler 50
Now that was a real formula!
Oh and the wind! ..... it seemed as if a headwind could halve the speed of a downwind run
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jul 22 2008, 07:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What type of nonsense is this? Judging from your avatar picture, you ride, so you should know better...
You cannot chop the throttle on the bike mid corner at 50 degrees plus of lean angle, or you will lowside instantly! You will transfer way too much weight to the front tyre!
Thank you for the riding lesson ......... You also can't keep the throttle open either and run up the ... of a rider in front of you.....can you big guy? Reread my post with that "sense" in mind and then stop being a prick.
You cannot chop the throttle on the bike mid corner at 50 degrees plus of lean angle, or you will lowside instantly! You will transfer way too much weight to the front tyre!
Thank you for the riding lesson ......... You also can't keep the throttle open either and run up the ... of a rider in front of you.....can you big guy? Reread my post with that "sense" in mind and then stop being a prick.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 23 2008, 03:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thank you for the riding lesson ......... You also can't keep the throttle open either and run up the ... of a rider in front of you.....can you big guy? Reread my post with that "sense" in mind and then stop being a prick.
Are you suggesting that Stoner is completely unable to adapt his riding when he is following, so he was cracking the throttle where he would on a clear track only to have to shut it again? That would be completely amatuer riding, nowhere near motogp level.
Are you suggesting that Stoner is completely unable to adapt his riding when he is following, so he was cracking the throttle where he would on a clear track only to have to shut it again? That would be completely amatuer riding, nowhere near motogp level.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 23 2008, 04:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are you suggesting that Stoner is completely unable to adapt his riding when he is following, so he was cracking the throttle where he would on a clear track only to have to shut it again? That would be completely amatuer riding, nowhere near motogp level.
Tom you seem to only understand what you ALLOW yourself to understand. What I'm saying is that the TC system on the Ducati is configured in such a way that in order for it to function at its maximum benefit to Casey, he must open the throttle full at predefined points on the track. Just like a braking marker a rider has a mental map of the track which allows him to memorize where he needs to be on the throttle.
Its my contention, based on reading about how these systems work and from first hand opinions from the team announcements and Marco that we hear, that the system does not work as well when Casey must come off the throttle mid corner because he's being held up (by a defensive position etc). I'm not talking about cutting the throttle in the middle of the corner and whipping the rear end around. I'm talking about the small roll offs a rider does to compensate for someone in the way.
Tom you seem to only understand what you ALLOW yourself to understand. What I'm saying is that the TC system on the Ducati is configured in such a way that in order for it to function at its maximum benefit to Casey, he must open the throttle full at predefined points on the track. Just like a braking marker a rider has a mental map of the track which allows him to memorize where he needs to be on the throttle.
Its my contention, based on reading about how these systems work and from first hand opinions from the team announcements and Marco that we hear, that the system does not work as well when Casey must come off the throttle mid corner because he's being held up (by a defensive position etc). I'm not talking about cutting the throttle in the middle of the corner and whipping the rear end around. I'm talking about the small roll offs a rider does to compensate for someone in the way.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Jul 22 2008, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The most important fact is Rossi was managing to do 21s in the race, Barry.
That was Stoners pace without qualifiers.Personally, I think Rossi, as part of his strategy, held back a little during qualifying. Just to make the Ducati guys feel comfortable with their times and to keep them from trying to improve the bike. During the race, he let it all hang out. Also, Rossi is one of the few riders that can lap consistently close to qualifying pace.
That was Stoners pace without qualifiers.Personally, I think Rossi, as part of his strategy, held back a little during qualifying. Just to make the Ducati guys feel comfortable with their times and to keep them from trying to improve the bike. During the race, he let it all hang out. Also, Rossi is one of the few riders that can lap consistently close to qualifying pace.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 23 2008, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thank you for the riding lesson ......... You also can't keep the throttle open either and run up the ... of a rider in front of you.....can you big guy? Reread my post with that "sense" in mind and then stop being a prick.
No need to get defensive, no need for insults, you made an error in your comments. Instead of becoming abusive, you might try to actually learn something; none of us know everything.
"The TC in Casey's ride seems to hiccup when he has to chop the throttle mid corner, hence why Casey is struggling in traffic."
You did say 'chop' the throttle mid corner(which means to suddenly desist from the application of throttle input). This contradicts your later statement: "I'm not talking about cutting the throttle in the middle of the corner and whipping the rear end around. I'm talking about the small roll offs a rider does to compensate for someone in the way. "
With all due respect (I'm honestly not trying to make fun of you, but it does seem you fail to understand this point), the rear does not 'whip' around if you chop the throttle mid corner at full lean angle. A lowside is the result of such an error(sudden transfer of weight to the front tyre...).
No need to get defensive, no need for insults, you made an error in your comments. Instead of becoming abusive, you might try to actually learn something; none of us know everything.
"The TC in Casey's ride seems to hiccup when he has to chop the throttle mid corner, hence why Casey is struggling in traffic."
You did say 'chop' the throttle mid corner(which means to suddenly desist from the application of throttle input). This contradicts your later statement: "I'm not talking about cutting the throttle in the middle of the corner and whipping the rear end around. I'm talking about the small roll offs a rider does to compensate for someone in the way. "
With all due respect (I'm honestly not trying to make fun of you, but it does seem you fail to understand this point), the rear does not 'whip' around if you chop the throttle mid corner at full lean angle. A lowside is the result of such an error(sudden transfer of weight to the front tyre...).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jul 23 2008, 07:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>none of us know everything.
I do, at least I think I do
I do, at least I think I do
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 22 2008, 02:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't be a wiseass dude. Rossi's fall in Assen had NOTHING in common with Stoner being frustrated into a wide corner, after being mentally abused for an entire race.
Quite right... but it did have everything to do with Rossi panicking about Stoner disappearing into the sunset once again & Vale overcooking his corner entry...
No wonder Vale used the tactics he did at Laguna... probably did Stoner a huge favour as now the gloves will come off... it'd be nice to see "the master" get a bit of his own back for once!
And what's wrong with being a wiseass? It seems to me that it's a required talent to be here??
Quite right... but it did have everything to do with Rossi panicking about Stoner disappearing into the sunset once again & Vale overcooking his corner entry...
No wonder Vale used the tactics he did at Laguna... probably did Stoner a huge favour as now the gloves will come off... it'd be nice to see "the master" get a bit of his own back for once!
And what's wrong with being a wiseass? It seems to me that it's a required talent to be here??
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (muzzy57 @ Jul 23 2008, 06:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Quite right... but it did have everything to do with Rossi panicking about Stoner disappearing into the sunset once again & Vale overcooking his corner entry...
No wonder Vale used the tactics he did at Laguna... probably did Stoner a huge favour as now the gloves will come off... it'd be nice to see "the master" get a bit of his own back for once!
And what's wrong with being a wiseass? It seems to me that it's a required talent to be here??
M-GP needs some "gloves off" racing. It'll bring a bit of excitement back to the series as it used to be when the 500 roamed the tracks. real racers riding real bikes
No wonder Vale used the tactics he did at Laguna... probably did Stoner a huge favour as now the gloves will come off... it'd be nice to see "the master" get a bit of his own back for once!
And what's wrong with being a wiseass? It seems to me that it's a required talent to be here??
M-GP needs some "gloves off" racing. It'll bring a bit of excitement back to the series as it used to be when the 500 roamed the tracks. real racers riding real bikes
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kngadrok @ Jul 24 2008, 10:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>M-GP needs some "gloves off" racing. It'll bring a bit of excitement back to the series as it used to be when the 500 roamed the tracks. real racers riding real bikes
Gee! you've changed your tune! Weren't you the one calling Stoner a cry baby because he dared say something about Rossi's riding!?
Been and watched some old school video's no doubt??
Gee! you've changed your tune! Weren't you the one calling Stoner a cry baby because he dared say something about Rossi's riding!?
Been and watched some old school video's no doubt??
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 23 2008, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gee! you've changed your tune! Weren't you the one calling Stoner a cry baby because he dared say something about Rossi's riding!?
Been and watched some old school video's no doubt??
I meant gloves off on the tracks, talk is cheap
maybe I didnt read the post correctly, which isn't hard when your HIGH
Been and watched some old school video's no doubt??
I meant gloves off on the tracks, talk is cheap
maybe I didnt read the post correctly, which isn't hard when your HIGH
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kngadrok @ Jul 24 2008, 10:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>M-GP needs some "gloves off" racing. It'll bring a bit of excitement back to the series as it used to be when the 500 roamed the tracks. real racers riding real bikes
Agree completely!
It's been said on here many times before, but for the sake of posterity... for example: If Rossi had came into GP's a number of years earlier & had to contend with the whole "golden era" group of riders, then while he would have no doubt won races & even championships, I seriously doubt that he would've been anyway near as successful as he has been.
But geez it would have been great to watch!!
Agree completely!
It's been said on here many times before, but for the sake of posterity... for example: If Rossi had came into GP's a number of years earlier & had to contend with the whole "golden era" group of riders, then while he would have no doubt won races & even championships, I seriously doubt that he would've been anyway near as successful as he has been.
But geez it would have been great to watch!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jul 23 2008, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No need to get defensive, no need for insults, you made an error in your comments. Instead of becoming abusive, you might try to actually learn something; none of us know everything.
With all due respect (I'm honestly not trying to make fun of you, but it does seem you fail to understand this point), the rear does not 'whip' around if you chop the throttle mid corner at full lean angle.
Fascinating analysis, but I've been racing long enough to know the difference, so shut it when it comes to teaching me racing concepts. If you 'cut', 'chop', 'lessen', 'reduce', or in any word roll off in mid corner and then roll back on, a high side CAN result. Its actually happened to me before and trust me it wasn't pleasant. The weight transfer you speak of to the front wheel will have the effect of unloading the rear momentarily, causing it to slip outward off the racing line, then as you open the throttle again, you can spin up and pull a Lorenzo.
Dictionary warfare here accomplishes nothing.
With all due respect (I'm honestly not trying to make fun of you, but it does seem you fail to understand this point), the rear does not 'whip' around if you chop the throttle mid corner at full lean angle.
Fascinating analysis, but I've been racing long enough to know the difference, so shut it when it comes to teaching me racing concepts. If you 'cut', 'chop', 'lessen', 'reduce', or in any word roll off in mid corner and then roll back on, a high side CAN result. Its actually happened to me before and trust me it wasn't pleasant. The weight transfer you speak of to the front wheel will have the effect of unloading the rear momentarily, causing it to slip outward off the racing line, then as you open the throttle again, you can spin up and pull a Lorenzo.
Dictionary warfare here accomplishes nothing.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 24 2008, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fascinating analysis, but I've been racing long enough to know the difference.
Apparently not. I encourage you to go and hit 50 degrees + of lean angle and chop the throttle. After you lowside(not highside, the weight is transferring to the front. At that lean angle, the front will be lost before you can blink; the front tyre is already near the limit, any drastic transfer of weight to the front will cause a loss of traction at the front wheel. This leads to a lowside), then you may know how to admit when you are wrong.
But the strength of your argument is laughable; this is evidenced by the fact that you keep changing it. You initially claimed that Casey 'chopped' the throttle mid corner, at max lean angle. Then, instead of owning up to your mistake, you continued to demonstrate your poor grasp of physics by bizarrely claiming that chopping the throttle mid corner results in a highside.
Apparently not. I encourage you to go and hit 50 degrees + of lean angle and chop the throttle. After you lowside(not highside, the weight is transferring to the front. At that lean angle, the front will be lost before you can blink; the front tyre is already near the limit, any drastic transfer of weight to the front will cause a loss of traction at the front wheel. This leads to a lowside), then you may know how to admit when you are wrong.
But the strength of your argument is laughable; this is evidenced by the fact that you keep changing it. You initially claimed that Casey 'chopped' the throttle mid corner, at max lean angle. Then, instead of owning up to your mistake, you continued to demonstrate your poor grasp of physics by bizarrely claiming that chopping the throttle mid corner results in a highside.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhyko7 @ Jul 22 2008, 11:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>David Brivio after laguna seca
""We know the Ducati's electronics are more sophisticated. In fact, since they've introduced their latest updates Stoner has become very strong, while up to Barcelona he was normal and we had beaten him more than once," he said.
"So we must work in that same direction while also trying to have a more powerful engine, because on long straights it's difficult to keep him at bay. In fact the straight here is not very long, so we managed to defend ourselves."
i really hope they ban all the electronics...i think it will get to the point where they will have to govern the electronics, but this is probably a few years away yet.
Ah David. This is propaganda of the highest order.
Both the Yamaha and the Ducati run Magneti Marelli systems.
The Ducati system is the first of this model and is also used on their street bike (1098R). It doesn’t have satellites, aliens or separate corner settings and is frankly rather uncomplicated.
It cuts the throttle at a given difference between front and rear wheel speed (and that’s it).
The change Casey made on his bike was to do with the torque delivery (this is the ECU and scooters have them these days, it makes them better for Euro 3 compliance - every bike on that grid has one - The TC integrates with this), anyway they reduced torque delivery in the mid range where it caused “pumping” by way of chassis flex and unsettling the front wheel, throwing the weight balance front and rear.
This is the rear wheel oscillation you see on his bike.
It is also the reason they are going to dump the trellis chassis next year and go to carbon fibre. The traditional chassis has reached the limit of its effectiveness at this level.
The Yamaha runs the next series traction control from Magneti Marelli.
Fiat owns Magneti Marelli and Fiat is also Valentino’s major sponsor.
On the Magneti web page there is no shrine to Casey but you’ll find a picture of VR riding a Yamaha. Fiat give their rider the best system, why would they try and make their guy lose by giving the best one to their opposition. David Brivio is depending on you to make that leap of faith and some of you will no doubt make it.
This is so overdone and David Brivio is further popularising his rider by demonising the opposition, who run lesser systems than his own riders. It’s rubbish of the highest order.
""We know the Ducati's electronics are more sophisticated. In fact, since they've introduced their latest updates Stoner has become very strong, while up to Barcelona he was normal and we had beaten him more than once," he said.
"So we must work in that same direction while also trying to have a more powerful engine, because on long straights it's difficult to keep him at bay. In fact the straight here is not very long, so we managed to defend ourselves."
i really hope they ban all the electronics...i think it will get to the point where they will have to govern the electronics, but this is probably a few years away yet.
Ah David. This is propaganda of the highest order.
Both the Yamaha and the Ducati run Magneti Marelli systems.
The Ducati system is the first of this model and is also used on their street bike (1098R). It doesn’t have satellites, aliens or separate corner settings and is frankly rather uncomplicated.
It cuts the throttle at a given difference between front and rear wheel speed (and that’s it).
The change Casey made on his bike was to do with the torque delivery (this is the ECU and scooters have them these days, it makes them better for Euro 3 compliance - every bike on that grid has one - The TC integrates with this), anyway they reduced torque delivery in the mid range where it caused “pumping” by way of chassis flex and unsettling the front wheel, throwing the weight balance front and rear.
This is the rear wheel oscillation you see on his bike.
It is also the reason they are going to dump the trellis chassis next year and go to carbon fibre. The traditional chassis has reached the limit of its effectiveness at this level.
The Yamaha runs the next series traction control from Magneti Marelli.
Fiat owns Magneti Marelli and Fiat is also Valentino’s major sponsor.
On the Magneti web page there is no shrine to Casey but you’ll find a picture of VR riding a Yamaha. Fiat give their rider the best system, why would they try and make their guy lose by giving the best one to their opposition. David Brivio is depending on you to make that leap of faith and some of you will no doubt make it.
This is so overdone and David Brivio is further popularising his rider by demonising the opposition, who run lesser systems than his own riders. It’s rubbish of the highest order.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 22 2008, 08:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The TC in Casey's ride seems to hiccup when he has to chop the throttle mid corner, hence why Casey is struggling in traffic.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jul 24 2008, 06:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Then, instead of owning up to your mistake, you continued to demonstrate your poor grasp of physics by bizarrely claiming that chopping the throttle mid corner results in a highside.
Ok, I'll give you that, 'chop' and 'mid corner' were poor choices of words. BUT, with personal experience with this type of accident, don't attempt to tell me its not possible. I have the scars to prove it.
The overriding concept I'm trying to get across is that Casey's TC only works perfect when he is not held up and he has clear track in front of him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jul 24 2008, 06:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Then, instead of owning up to your mistake, you continued to demonstrate your poor grasp of physics by bizarrely claiming that chopping the throttle mid corner results in a highside.
Ok, I'll give you that, 'chop' and 'mid corner' were poor choices of words. BUT, with personal experience with this type of accident, don't attempt to tell me its not possible. I have the scars to prove it.
The overriding concept I'm trying to get across is that Casey's TC only works perfect when he is not held up and he has clear track in front of him.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 24 2008, 10:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok, I'll give you that, 'chop' and 'mid corner' were poor choices of words. BUT, with personal experience with this type of accident, don't attempt to tell me its not possible. I have the scars to prove it.
The overriding concept I'm trying to get across is that Casey's TC only works perfect when he is not held up and he has clear track in front of him.
I thnk I see your point, however .... I think more its the power delivery of the bike that would be the problem, not so much the TC ..... sure if you balked him into riding in that burbling stage the Duc. seems to have ... thats not where Stoner rides it usually so it would be a good tactic to hold him there.
The overriding concept I'm trying to get across is that Casey's TC only works perfect when he is not held up and he has clear track in front of him.
I thnk I see your point, however .... I think more its the power delivery of the bike that would be the problem, not so much the TC ..... sure if you balked him into riding in that burbling stage the Duc. seems to have ... thats not where Stoner rides it usually so it would be a good tactic to hold him there.
