onboard race telemetry, Rossi Stoner??

This thread is great! All this fact finding that helps justify some Rossifan idiom/excuse .... based on TV telemetry!


What next


Just as a sidenote. You are aware theat these onscreen telemetry displays are way out of synch? And are a very minimal "grab" of realtime data. Daryl Beattie even pointed out that Rossi's was not showing the gear shifting correctly the other day ... it was out by 1 gear.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 21 2008, 11:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This thread is great! All this fact finding that helps justify some Rossifan idiom/excuse .... based on TV telemetry!


What next


Just as a sidenote. You are aware theat these onscreen telemetry displays are way out of synch? And are a very minimal "grab" of realtime data. Daryl Beattie even pointed out that Rossi's was not showing the gear shifting correctly the other day ... it was out by 1 gear.
Yeah why debate when you can just say the data is flawed. (on a sidenote, I'll take inaccurate TV telemetry over someone's guess any day)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 22 2008, 02:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't be a wiseass dude. Rossi's fall in Assen had NOTHING in common with Stoner being frustrated into a wide corner, after being mentally abused for an entire race.

You are right ! .... it only took about 1/4 of the first lap for Rossi to crumble under the pressure.

In reality. I think Rossi got lucky at Laguna .... we know Stoner was ill ( stomach bug ... hence the comments about him really having the ..... LOL ) ...... hence why his times were worse on the Sunday ...... hence Rossi could get near him in the first place ...... otherwise it would have been Pedrosa nearer Stoner .... if indeed Pedrosa bothered to come

ANyway its a good way to go into the last half of the season Rossi has to defend Stoner has to fight to win ..

I think the only person here who was really ripped at Laguna was me ...... I was so looking forward to see what laps Stoner could produce ...... straight away in lap one it was obvious he was not at Friday and Saturday pace ...... so I got ripped off

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 22 2008, 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>(on a sidenote, I'll take inaccurate TV telemetry over someone's guess any day)


You are an ..... ..... you have no idea probably because of your reliance on the above


Ok I know you are ignorant so I will help educate you .... for any assesment of the accuracy of the telemetry look for the following:

Speed of Data conversion from sensor
Speed of data conversion from each bike to the central data collection rate.
Update rate that the team will accept to feed to Dorna for the purposes of TV display.
Digital resolution of each bikes data aquisition and sending unit.
lag time between the individual bikes.
Lag time between vision video reatime and digital data display. This one is the reall killer I suspect as its notoriously wayyyyy out of synch.


We discussed TV telemetry on here before ...... conclusion ... "it looks pretty" on the TV ...... thats about it.

But hey who am I to stop you believing whatever tool/story/fairytale you want to, on your way to justifying the glory of the almighty ....... feel free to carry on ...... no skin off my nose

Anyone who doesn't realize the telemetry data is out of sync is deaf. You can hear the engine revving even before the telemetry reacts on the screen and shows throttle input!

My point was not whether stoner might not in the future or has not in the past outwitted rossi tactically, just that in these particular circumstances at laguna seca on a similar yamaha against a similar and similarly ridden ducati at this stage in his career I strongly doubt he could do what rossi +/-jb did; ie set the bike up to be optimal at likely overtaking points and block every line for so many laps.

Hey doc 79, I hope they didn't use any of that track aware engine mapping to help with this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 22 2008, 10:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You are right ! .... it only took about 1/4 of the first lap for Rossi to crumble under the pressure.

I think the only person here who was really ripped at Laguna was me ...... I was so looking forward to see what laps Stoner could produce ...... straight away in lap one it was obvious he was not at Friday and Saturday pace ...... so I got ripped off

I wouldn't say that. when stoner had a bit of gap to Rossi he was closing more than a second in 2 laps (setting the fastest lap during that time around 21.4). That says he is very capable of emulating that Fri/Sat pace.. but Vale didnt give him that chance. period.

Whilst people focus on the telemetry and whether it shows (in their opinions) whether CS relies more heavily on TC etc, to me it showed nothing at all in that regards.

Yes, there would be a lag and it does show braking/throttle application but it does not show these applications against the lean angle of the bike.

Some of the footage that I have seen of CS over the years has shown that he does tend to 'pick the bike up' earlier than others in much of a point and shoot type of approach (Doohan did the same), whereas VR and others tend not to (VR did a bit last year due to tyre issues).

The only true representation would require real-time displays with lean angle sensors and external mnulti angle footage.

In other words, its a guess.






Garry

Its odd that we could see Rossi's bike clearly driving out of the corners away from Stoner and yet everyone claims Casey's electronics setup was better. Rossi's bike looked far more planted throughout the race.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PAsystm @ Jul 21 2008, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>. i never rode a bike in my life that let me just whack open the throttle mid corner, at least without sending me on a jorge.

thats because not many have ridden a gp bike..

not disagreeing with your post though..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Craig3089 @ Jul 21 2008, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i'm not the only to have noticed then.
Nope:

http://www.powerslide.net/forum/-t8266.htm...st&p=140770

David Brivio after laguna seca

""We know the Ducati's electronics are more sophisticated. In fact, since they've introduced their latest updates Stoner has become very strong, while up to Barcelona he was normal and we had beaten him more than once," he said.

"So we must work in that same direction while also trying to have a more powerful engine, because on long straights it's difficult to keep him at bay. In fact the straight here is not very long, so we managed to defend ourselves."

i really hope they ban all the electronics, its got to the point where it is making too much difference and the sport is heading in the same direction as F1. racing should be about the racer not the equipment. i think certain riders would shine through with out the electronics-guintolli, hayden rossi i think would be really strong.

i think it will get to the point where they will have to govern the electronics, but this is probably a few years away yet.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 22 2008, 03:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Its odd that we could see Rossi's bike clearly driving out of the corners away from Stoner and yet everyone claims Casey's electronics setup was better. Rossi's bike looked far more planted throughout the race.
Not odd at all Tom, if you think about it, electronics are programmed to do a certain thing. Rossi was getting out of the corners better, but only because he was running a block on Casey. Had Casey had open track in front of him, he'd have been much faster. The TC in Casey's ride seems to hiccup when he has to chop the throttle mid corner, hence why Casey is struggling in traffic.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhyko7 @ Jul 22 2008, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>David Brivio after laguna seca

""We know the Ducati's electronics are more sophisticated. In fact, since they've introduced their latest updates Stoner has become very strong, while up to Barcelona he was normal and we had beaten him more than once," he said.

"So we must work in that same direction while also trying to have a more powerful engine, because on long straights it's difficult to keep him at bay. In fact the straight here is not very long, so we managed to defend ourselves."
Whilst this may or may not be true, I would file it under mindgames with casey stoner rather than deep concern about the technical regulations from david brivio.

Whilst casey continues to amply demonstrate the callowness often associated with youth off the track, he hasn't been given to many mistakes on the track at least during races since he has been riding a ducati. My prediction is that he will refuse this invitation to either dice with valentino to demonstrate his mettle, or to beat him by greater margins to show his superiority and concentrate on winning races by the best available means.

Whilst we are on TC and too much electronics crap again .....

do any of you realise Rossi has GPS on his bike!!?



Ok, so too do all the riders these days, it was just the top riders a few years back ..... and ok its used to give track position for the TV onscreen racing position thingo they throw up at times

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Jul 22 2008, 07:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>thats because not many have ridden a gp bike..

I have! ....... and it was a pretty historical beast too, a real screamer! ......... do I have to admit what it was? And I was able to handle it with absolutely zero TC!

me too barry, on the playstation.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 21 2008, 11:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whilst people focus on the telemetry and whether it shows (in their opinions) whether CS relies more heavily on TC etc, to me it showed nothing at all in that regards. I went back and watched the telemetry clip over and over again on my DVR. These are my observations (when Stoner was following Rossi):

1. Rossi was braking later than Stoner
2. Stoner was getting on the gas earlier than Rossi.
3. Stoner inputs appeared to be more abrupt than Rossi's (although this could be a result of a difference in the sensitivity of the sensors)

I suspect Stoner can rely more heavily on TC to control the power to the rear tire. From exterior shots too there were many times during the race when Stoner's rear was trying to break loose.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Jul 22 2008, 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I went back and watched the telemetry clip over and over again on my DVR. These are my observations (when Stoner was following Rossi):

1. Rossi was braking later than Stoner
2. Stoner was getting on the gas earlier than Rossi.
3. Stoner inputs appeared to be more abrupt than Rossi's (although this could be a result of a difference in the sensitivity of the sensors)

I suspect Stoner can rely more heavily on TC to control the power to the rear tire. From exterior shots too there were many times during the race when Stoner's rear was trying to break loose.

I had the same impression, and while Barry try to aducate us on telemetry (that's a funny thing btw)
he tends to forget that it must basically be the same equipment used on both bikes and allthough the lag is too long to make any evaluation of a single bike's lean angle/throttle it should make a useful comparison between two bikes. The sensitivity might be a bit off, but as you said Stoner semed to be earlier on the gas. We have had those telemtrics on screen for a few years now and it's the first time I've seen anyone close to being as early as Rossi on the gas, let alone being earlier. It could have been a coincidence of huge differences in the lag times but me think not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 22 2008, 04:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You are right ! .... it only took about 1/4 of the first lap for Rossi to crumble under the pressure.

In reality. I think Rossi got lucky at Laguna .... we know Stoner was ill ( stomach bug ... hence the comments about him really having the ..... LOL ) ...... hence why his times were worse on the Sunday ...... hence Rossi could get near him in the first place ...... otherwise it would have been Pedrosa nearer Stoner .... if indeed Pedrosa bothered to come

ANyway its a good way to go into the last half of the season Rossi has to defend Stoner has to fight to win ..

I think the only person here who was really ripped at Laguna was me ...... I was so looking forward to see what laps Stoner could produce ...... straight away in lap one it was obvious he was not at Friday and Saturday pace ...... so I got ripped off

So you are trying to say that the only reason Rossi won was because Stoner had a bug? Get real, he beat him fair and square and Stoner just couldn;t handle it and threw his toys out of the pram like a child.