Nicky Hayden on Ducati

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 27 2009, 02:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sounds like it would be, if they approach things this differently, very difficult to prove which one works better to aid rider.....unless of course you are one of the top 5 riders in the world and got to ride both machines back to back.....so suggesting/speculation that the Yam's is better needs more solid evidence wouldn't you agree? Maybe an offical test between bikes with someone like Bayliss, just for us

using the gibbers interview, is not really solid proof as he may or may not be quoting the correct figures (from wherever he got them from-are these offical numbers available anywhere-I'm not sure-Pandoras Box opening now!) and he has only really (aside from last years GP8 factory test) ridden the second string Ducati and hasn't laid leathers on an M1(might be wrong here but certainly not recently)-ever.

So if Gibbers had just come from an offical test, riding both the duck and the yamaka, and spending all day on both, and then said the M1's system was better, I would believe that.



Geez, stop stuttering will ya - I get it, I get it -

Yes, I do not place as much credence on Gibbers but was particularly interested in his comments that CS preferred the older system - sorry should have made that much clearer. As an FYI the Gibbers interview was on Kropotkins site and was prior to his departure - so he had a vested interest in what was said.

Absolutely agree however that determining which is best woudl require an unbiased opinion of all systems to be provided by someone who had actually hit the limits of these systems and bikes. Which means simply that it won't happen as that would require a current GP rider to perform the tests in roder to meet the limits (yes accept that recent riders would get close but feel that they could not find the true limits).

We can hypothesise about such things - then if it were to happen we all know that DORNA would changet he rules and again we would be at square one all talking BS and throwing out opinions as fact or whatnot (and that applies to all including me - so don't take it personally).

May I attempt to reconcile Nicky's comments with reality.

Not true about leaving it WOT and letting the traction control take over -> referring to people claiming it's just pump and go at every corner, no need to worry about silly stuff like too much throttle.

Cracking it wide open at Donnington -> not having to feather the throttle like it used to be but being able to open it much more without being afraid of it sliding out that easily.


Then again, I don't think I understood what I just typed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (heng47 @ Jul 28 2009, 08:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Then again, I don't think I understood what I just typed.

+1






But did come across this elsewhere - interesting comments.

7656:tractioncontrol.jpg]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 27 2009, 02:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually you may want to search a bit on that as there were stories around 2 months ago that the Yamaha system is the most advanced in use in the MotoGP field (both manufacturers using MagnettiMarelli).

Owned by Yamaha. Strange, no conspiracies here?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>It was said at that time that the Yamaha system used around 2000 interruptions per lap to the upgraded Ducati system which now used 1000 interruptions per lap (up from 30-40 interruptions of the old system said to be preferred by CS - refer interview with Gibernau). But, the systems apparently were used differently in terms of impact as the Yamaha system was said to reduce fuel input and thus power that way, whereas the Ducati system was aid to ...... ignition which results in the popping noises often heard/reported.

Obviously this lacks a lot of information. We know from interviews that they all use combinations of these limitations, but anyway. The strange thing is that limiting fuel also require limiting air and that is definatly the slowest regulation they have available as it involves closing a butterfly valve.
So, Yamaha with the fastest electronics available choose the slower action. That's a bit strange. But then again I suspect a sudden slip on the Yamaha also include ignition cut.

Anyway, what I wanted to say: Improved CPU hardware are easy to quote as "improvements" but if Sete is even remotely close to the truth he proves my point: No hardware spec can substitute a good program.

Btw, Ducati's doesn't pop, it's a continuous noise of an engine badly misfiring without any distinct popping. To me it's the sound of a badly abused engine. So ugly that it is beautiful.

BTW, Check out my signature

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 28 2009, 09:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Owned by Yamaha. Strange, no conspiracies here?

Happy to make one up




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 28 2009, 09:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Obviously this lacks a lot of information. We know from interviews that they all use combinations of these limitations, but anyway. The strange thing is that limiting fuel also require limiting air and that is definatly the slowest regulation they have available as it involves closing a butterfly valve.
So, Yamaha with the fastest electronics available choose the slower action. That's a bit strange. But then again I suspect a sudden slip on the Yamaha also include ignition cut.

I agree, little information in my post but the original article had a bit more with regards to teh impacts and the manner in which the systems worked (I am not technical so NFI - and don't pretend that I do know)



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 28 2009, 09:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Btw, Ducati's doesn't pop, it's a continuous noise of an engine badly misfiring without any distinct popping. To me it's the sound of a badly abused engine. So ugly that it is beautiful.

Well have heard it described as popping numerous times - misfiring is possible a better term but popping and farting seem to be the more common description


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 28 2009, 09:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>BTW, Check out my signature

What is funny about it - it does not support your assertion from threads past that CS always cracked the throttle to stop but he does admit that when slippery he will 'sometimes' do it. Sometimes is not everytime but occaisons when or as required.

To me the Stoner comments reveal more than you wish to see as they seem to indicate the way he works the throttle (as opposed to opening to stop as you have asserted in times past) to get the bike working and thus attain the fast times. He reveals how he may crack it to get a feel of grip then roll it back until he feels the throttle through the grip - obviously then he uses feel to regulate the amount of throttle required for the given situation.

The sheer fact that he would discuss it in this manner is interesting when the others asked (or quoted) in the article reveal little - my bet is that CS was asked more because of the assertions (no proof - assumption)





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 28 2009, 10:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What is funny about it - it does not support your assertion from threads past that CS always cracked the throttle to stop but he does admit that when slippery he will 'sometimes' do it. Sometimes is not everytime but occaisons when or as required.

Without re-reading all my post I strongly doubt I ever said allways. I said I've seen it and been accused of lying numerous times for that. So in my eyes we are not talking about assertions any more, but the man him self FULLY support what I've said ALL the time. Again I suspect you're also blinded by suspicion. This is NOT a dig at stoner, I fully resepct and admire his ability to ride as fast as he does on the Ducati and that doesn't really involve an evaluation of his interaction with the TC. If it's as I suspect with a strong interaction with the electronic driver aid package (As you see I include it all here) or if the driver aid play a lesser role equal to Honda and Yamaha. My level of admiration is really unchanged regardless of how the package work.
On the other hand I find the suspected interaction with the driver aids very interesting and it's a big loss to this forum that we have a few "DEFENDERS" that fight back any new thoughts or ideas if they maybe/possibly/not likely could in any way and in any light shed doubt regarding THEIR riders ability. So my first post (......s and all that) was indeed a dig at those people.
They also fight with such a passion and intensity that it outright scares me. There is no will to look at things in new angles, just slash down any attempts to look at things in a new way.
It's up to you if you wanna sit up there with Jumkie and his sledge hammer or come down and actually debate the possibilities.
Personally I'm finished with the Whack Open as Stoner himself now says he does what I say I saw.
A case can't be more closed that that, although I have no doubt J will open it again and again.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>To me the Stoner comments reveal more than you wish to see as they seem to indicate the way he works the throttle (as opposed to opening to stop as you have asserted in times past) to get the bike working and thus attain the fast times. He reveals how he may crack it to get a feel of grip then roll it back until he feels the throttle through the grip - obviously then he uses feel to regulate the amount of throttle required for the given situation.
Again, I could see the whacking open part, any adjustments after that would be impossible to see and for me to say I saw he kept it wide open would be an outright lie, but then again I never did.
This was observations during free practice at the Assen chicane.

What I did was that sitting next to the Rossifumi's during the race we could all easily pick Stoner out solely by sound as his engine were working harder on the TC than any of the other Ducaties (and suzukis that must use a very similar system)
If that was by holding it wide open or not is hard to say, although it would seem like the perfect corner to do it. It's a short bend with a quick transition and a looong opening left-hander after that. TC could be heard practically all through that left-hander all the way to the braking point of the next turn. How he could manage to combine that heavy tc and throttle control sounds strange to me, but maybe thats what he does and that is his secret but again, that would be very strange.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 28 2009, 07:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Without re-reading all my post I strongly doubt I ever said allways.

Why would you need to go back and read your post? I've quoted them several times to discredit what you say plenty of times already. You then backpedal like crazy claiming all manner of excuses: "I didn't mean it that way", "it must be a translation thing", "you're not understanding me", "the commentators got it wrong too", etc etc. You're like the flavor of the month at Baskin Robbins Ice Cream, 'what's your excuse today?'


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>So my first post (......s and all that) was indeed a dig at those people. It's up to you if you wanna sit up there with Jumkie or come down and actually debate the possibilities.

Personally I'm finished with the Whack Open as Stoner himself now says he does what I say I saw.
A case can't be more closed that that, although I have no doubt J will open it again and again.


You are done with it? Haha, yeah, I would say, because you were shown how absurd your assessments were, how could you continue to argue your position? In reality, the debate never even started. Basically you said something wildly impossible, I called you out--no debate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>What I did was that sitting next to the Rossifumi's during the race we could all easily pick Stoner out solely by sound as his engine were working harder on the TC than any of the other Ducaties (and suzukis that must use a very similar system)

Amazing, despite you saying you're done with it, you continue to claim Stoner was using more TC than anybody else. You're not very bright are you?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 28 2009, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why would you need to go back and read your post? I've quoted them several times to discredit what you say plenty of times already.
You hardly ever quote anything but the last post. Mostly you create a twisted look alike, a bizarro version of any originals, just to fit your own twisted opinions.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>You then backpedal like crazy claiming all manner of excuses: "I didn't mean it that way", "it must be a translation thing", "you're not understanding me", "the commentators got it wrong too", etc etc. You're like the flavor of the month at Baskin Robbins Ice Cream, 'what's your excuse today?'
God example of your "Bizarro Quoting".
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>You are done with it? Haha, yeah, I would say, because you were shown how absurd your assessments were, how could you continue to argue your position? In reality, the debate never even started. Basically you said something wildly impossible, I called you out--no debate.
Please read my signature. I look out, as I have no intention of wasting time arguing wit your complete ........ my signature will extend slightly as you continue to make a fool out of yourself.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Amazing, despite you saying you're done with it, you continue to claim Stoner was using more TC than anybody else. You're not very bright are you?
Am I suposed to answere that?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Jul 28 2009, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just because Ducati's TC is noticeably audible, doesn't mean it intervenes more. In fact, it may be the opposite.

Ah, the voice of reason. Very true Clark. The problem is some just go with what they think they hear and conclude accordingly.


For those not following; the idea here being lost is that when intermittence is so high, that it’s audibly indistinguishable, almost a hum, conversely, if you decrease the intermittence, then you start to hear distinct interruptions. In the case of TC, if its acting at a higher rate, so high that the intermittence becomes indistinguishable, then in fact it’s being use “more” but is “less audible”. This is why listening at the side of the track 75 meters away is not a reliable source of evidence for one’s conclusions.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 28 2009, 09:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ah, the voice of reason. Very true Clark. The problem is some just go with what they think they hear and conclude accordingly.


For those not following; the idea here being lost is that when intermittence is so high, that it’s audibly indistinguishable, almost a hum, conversely, if you decrease the intermittence, then you start to hear distinct interruptions. In the case of TC, if its acting at a higher rate, so high that the intermittence becomes indistinguishable, then in fact it’s being use “more” but is “less audible”. This is why listening at the side of the track 75 meters away is not a reliable source of evidence for one’s conclusions.

The TC specialist is here again.
Former wizdom from the expert:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>TC is a very complex system, as well as other systems managing the machine. Some of which also produce various sounds emanating from the machine and exhaust. (I'm laughing right now even thinking about how absurd his statement is and having to explain how its a bit more complicated than mere listening for some stuttering and then voice some iron clad declaration like Babel has done).

Wonder why he failed to answere my questions regarding that post:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I'm sure you can tell us lots about all those systems that generate popping or stuttering when on power through a turn.
Is it the fuel wasting system?
The power enhancemnet system?
The "makle the bike twitchy" system?
Exactly what multiple systems except from TC produce that popping and stuttering when on power in a corner Jumkie?
after all, I so much want to learn new things.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 28 2009, 09:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ah, the voice of reason. Very true Clark. The problem is some just go with what they think they hear and conclude accordingly.


For those not following; the idea here being lost is that when intermittence is so high, that it’s audibly indistinguishable, almost a hum, conversely, if you decrease the intermittence, then you start to hear distinct interruptions. In the case of TC, if its acting at a higher rate, so high that the intermittence becomes indistinguishable, then in fact it’s being use “more” but is “less audible”. This is why listening at the side of the track 75 meters away is not a reliable source of evidence for one’s conclusions.
well make of this what you will and i was stood closer than 75 meters but there are all sorts of strange sounds coming from these bikes. Theres the over run burble and crackling sound and sometimes you can hear the engine go out of time, like the ignition was cut for a split second. very similar to a bike i once had that had air shift gears, every time i pressed the button to change up it cut the spark. the only difference was my bike used to backfire after. this out of time sound i heard on just about all the gp bikes was more apparent as the track got wetter and was less apparent on caseys bike from morning warm up on slicks to the race on wets.

Interesting Hayden interview with Matt Oxley from just after Mugello - that has not (to the best of my knowledge) appeared anywhere online.

..... "It's really encouraging because they tested and they were working for me rather than Casey. We changed the ride position with a different seat which moved me up quite high on the bike, almost an inch. Also, the electronics are different, the wheelbase is different and the offset is different. We changed everything but the handgrips!"
.... "Now the bike is giving me the feeling to where I can ride and push and get some feedback and get the bike to steer; before in all the long corners I had to stay on the rear brake to keep it turning, then on the exit it would shake so much. It's no fun at all when you're fighting the bike, you're off the pace and it feels like you're on your limit."
.... Despite handling problems, Hayden believes he can still make it back to the front. "It's a long way down the road. Right now I've got to thing about getting in the top ten regularly, then start looking toward the podium. I know it'll be tough, but don't bet against me."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 28 2009, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Without re-reading all my post I strongly doubt I ever said allways. I said I've seen it and been accused of lying numerous times for that. So in my eyes we are not talking about assertions any more, but the man him self FULLY support what I've said ALL the time. Again I suspect you're also blinded by suspicion.


Umm, you may want to read you signature again as you quote the line used by yourself in 07/2009.

"watching stoner around the track and how he just pin the throttle wide open"

That sounds to me like you are saying he does it the whole time.



Not discussing whjether you saw it or not as in fairness you can say that you do not have a dig at CS yet he was the only rider who does it (doubt that in reality), and he seems to be the only rider who's Ducati 'popped'/misfired' such that you can determine he is using the most.

I have said before an I say it again - all of these bikes have electronics - all of these riders will make use of these electronics to their maximum to allow them to maintain quick and consistent lap times. The manner in which the bikes and riders maximise the electronics may vary but the impacts do not - they are there.

You may see VS 'whack' the throttle open, whilst in watching TV coverage slow motion replays I may well see others doing theexact same thing. But for you to 'see' CS as you assert (and lets say you did) then that had to be one of the slippery corners where he was using his technique to slide the bike and get through thru the corner quicker - did you notice the subtlety and actuality of this?





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 29 2009, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Umm, you may want to read you signature again as you quote the line used by yourself in 07/2009.

"watching stoner around the track and how he just pin the throttle wide open"

That sounds to me like you are saying he does it the whole time.
I do not agree in that but at the same time I did exaggerate in the heat of the moment. The sentence indicate several observations. I have not been looking back in old posts any more than I had to but I think I had a closer description of exactly what and where I saw it in another post. Anyway, the sentence clearly exaggerating when I saw him only at the chicane doing that. My bad

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Not discussing whjether you saw it or not as in fairness you can say that you do not have a dig at CS yet he was the only rider who does it (doubt that in reality), and he seems to be the only rider who's Ducati 'popped'/misfired' such that you can determine he is using the most.

The thing with Ducati and Suzuki is that a they are very easy to hear.
I would describe it this way: The RPM at normal running give you a nice "Sinus" curve, as soon as the TC kick in it brakes up. Not by talking complete amplitudes away as I would describe a rev limiter but taking away from the sinus curve like a clipping, either as in what overstressed amplifiers does clipping the top and even more like what a thyristor does for power output clipping the side. Either way you get a ragged sound maintaining the main tone, but with very different "over harmonics".
First of all you listen for that ragged sound to start, then you listen to the changes in the "over harmonics" of that one. You don't have to listen to random popping but listen to it like tones, and to me the GP bike sound it is music , and that way you do get a an impression of what's going on. I admit, it may be other things limiting power as well that can't be heard as easy so that way my assumptions could be wrong. After all I can't claim to have "seen" the TC as I saw the full throttle thing, but both seem to have been under equal suspicion (to say the least).
More likely is that I hear Stoner's TC more than the others because he is earlier on the throttle than any one, including Rossi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Jul 29 2009, 05:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I know it'll be tough, but don't bet against me."

love this line

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ Jul 29 2009, 07:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>love this line

Yah gotta love the guy. After all the .... he's had to go through and the confidence
crushing circumstances - he still believes in himself. Some riders are fantastically
arrogant, while others can be timidly cautious about how they will perform. Hayden
is kind of comfortably in the middle and I get the sense that his humility is anything
but false. As much as I'd rather see him riding an easier bike and being competitive
straight out - I find myself having more and more admiration for the way he just
keeps plugging along with Ducati. I think next season could be really interesting
for him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Jul 29 2009, 09:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think next season could be really interesting
for him.

hopefully so

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ Jul 29 2009, 04:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>love this line
Me too. Excellent determination.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 29 2009, 02:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I do not agree in that but at the same time I did exaggerate in the heat of the moment. The sentence indicate several observations. I have not been looking back in old posts any more than I had to but I think I had a closer description of exactly what and where I saw it in another post. Anyway, the sentence clearly exaggerating when I saw him only at the chicane doing that. My bad

We all say stuff we don't exactly mean, but you stood by it for several weeks. You tried to backpedal repeatedly, but I think this above is all you had to say to change the tone. I respect people who can see thier mistakes and admit them, even if it was after a bit of hounding.

However, Babes, I still disagree that you can know how much TC a bike is using by merely listening to it. Bet lets just move on shall we.