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MotoGP 2013: Le Mans

Factory support or otherwise, LCR ranks below the other sat teams in terms of....efficiency.
 
Dr No
3514591368578032

Factory support or otherwise, LCR ranks below the other sat teams in terms of....efficiency.


Bautista has the showa.


And bradl the ohlins.


SO Bradl has factory support, (not full factory)


and bautista not.


And Cal has the M1's of Jorge Lorenzo of 2012 with tech 3 sponsors.
 
mario27
3514681368613946

Bautista has the showa.


And bradl the ohlins.


SO Bradl has factory support, (not full factory)


and bautista not.


And Cal has the M1's of Jorge Lorenzo of 2012 with tech 3 sponsors.


Both Honda's are this years full factory bikes (the showas are factory kit) fact, their support varies. Cal has the bike Jorge started 2012 with not the one he finished with fact. very different from you're above statement. Fact.
 
I'm not so sure deal.

If cal is on Lorenzos 2012 qatar bike now, what did he ride in 2012? Edwards 05 990?

If I'm not mistaken cal is on what is essentially the valencia 12 bike
 
cliché guevara
3514711368615501

I'm not so sure deal.

If cal is on Lorenzos 2012 qatar bike now, what did he ride in 2012? Edwards 05 990?

If I'm not mistaken cal is on what is essentially the valencia 12 bike


2013 engine now, not the same frame or swingarm that was used at the end of the season,the tech3 bikes at the start of 2012 were not the same as the factory bikes.
 
mario27
3514681368613946

Bautista has the showa.

And bradl the ohlins.

SO Bradl has factory support, (not full factory)

and bautista not.

And Cal has the M1's of Jorge Lorenzo of 2012 with tech 3 sponsors.


And?

LCR v Repsol?

LCR v Yammie Factory?

LCR v Tech 3?

LCR isn't 'factory' at all, regardless of what bits they get.
 
Rain...Hayden cruises to a win. (After Marky takes out the first 2 rows at turn 1).
 
Mental Anarchist
3514901368625098

Whats the name of your novel going to be?  "Hayden's .............: Jumkie Wins"?


It'll be availabe on Amazon by July, stay tuned....lol
 
L8Braker
3514941368629711

It'll be availabe on Amazon by July, stay tuned....lol


 


Willski Printing services are running the first edition now.


$99.99 with a free Willski Bible!


Orders over $100.00 delivered free ;)
 
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Some build up photos to Le Mans. 
 
Dr No
3514771368621826

And?

LCR v Repsol?

LCR v Yammie Factory?

LCR v Tech 3?

LCR isn't 'factory' at all, regardless of what bits they get.


LCR bike is so difficult to ride. Look the riders all these years who rode it! I remember Toni Elias when won the moto2 title at 2010 with Moriwaki and when go to drive the LCR at 2011 and he didnt something special.


Bradl won that title at 2011 and 2012 go to LCR. He did something special!! He used to crash but he finished sometimes 5th and 6th and 4th (i am not sure).


 


I remember these results from 2006 with Stoner.He used to crash but Pol posistion and second place? Thats insane for LCR!!!!
 
According to Herve Poncharal there is not much difference between tech 3 and factory bikes.


Meanwhile Poncharal also defended the technical differences between the Tech 3 motorcycles and those of factory Yamaha riders Jorge Lorenzo and Valentino Rossi.


Our engine specs are almost identical to the factory engines and we are now into the third development phase of the chassis since the first pre-season test at Sepang... I do not think one can say - and, furthermore, I do not think Cal can say - that we don't have active support and competitive machinery.


I believe Cal has a bike that is very, very close to those of the official riders.


Full story: http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/191207/1/motogp_le_mans_tech_3_boss_responds_to_crutchlow_rumours.html
 
Dr No
3514591368578032

Factory support or otherwise, LCR ranks below the other sat teams in terms of....efficiency.


 


Really? Where does this come from?


 


They were new into MotoGP the year Casey moved up and they managed an 8th place. Since that time thye have consistently been around there. They were consistently up the front in 125 and 250.


 


What doesn't seem clear is a series of breakdowns, DNFs, DNS's, or other poor results that would indicate a shambolic operation.


 


They are one of the most poorly-funded of the 'main' teams, without a doubt. Perhaps that has more bearing on their performance than any perception of inefficiency?
 
cliché guevara
3514581368575277

you spamming mario?


consider this a shoulder punch.


 


prediction: marquez for the win and cliché for a mental breakdown.


 


nah, if theres a honda in 1st place its dani. if not, jorge.


 


good points concerning honda factory support.


but anybody whos been watching since at least 2007 knows that being promised factory support isn't everything.ask melandri.


 


I'll lean a little out of the window and go ahead and say that a gresini rider with loads of media coverage probably got better factory support than the lcr team.


so bradl in any case still has a few races to go to podium the damn thing


 


Gresini is the acknowledged 'partner' team for HRC. They test the parts and groom the young riders (no, not in that way!)
 
thedeal
3515431368690009

The Showas are not official hrc factory kit but they are Showas factory kit and some in the paddock are saying better than Ohlins in some respects.


I know that Ohlins are the best for street bike (ss etc)


Showa,wp and Kyb for mx


 


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<span style="color:#323D4F;Here are some things that may help to

better understand the new 2013 PSF forks. This applies to both the 2013

CRF450R and the 2013 KX450F.





<span style="color:#323D4F;What is the PSF?



<span style="color:#323D4F;It is a fork that is more of a pneumatic or

air fork than last year, but it is not a “spring-less” fork. Yes, it

DOES NOT have a large metal compression “fork spring” or set of fork

springs as you would find in a fork that we are more familiar with, but

that does not mean that it’s a “spring free” or a “spring-less” fork. In

fact, it would also be incorrect to refer to the 2013 PSF fork as a

pneumatic fork, as all fork designs prior to this have a pneumatic

component as part of their design and, well…we don’t want to lose any

respect for that.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Say what?



<span style="color:#323D4F;First off, the PSF still has a metal spring

in the fork called a “balance spring” or “top out spring”. In fact,

technically, it has four of these, two in each side. You could also call

this a “counter spring” as it counters some of the forces applied by

the compressed air. You will feel and see the effects of the

balance-spring if you remove the fork from the bike and let all the air

out – as the air is let out, the fork sucks down. No joke. More on this

later.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Now…the other part to this madness is

defining what a “spring-less” fork is because all forks and shocks often

have a mixture of metal springs and air springs. So…the 2012 CRF450R

had a total of six metal springs (not counting the “valving” mechanisms)

and two air springs. The 2013 CRF450R has four metal springs and two

air springs. And just to make things really interesting, the 06-12 YZs

and the 06-12 KX450F has four air springs, and six metal springs. Those

numbers will surprise or confuse a few suspension guys.



<span style="color:#323D4F;By the way, when you add or remove fork

oil, in the lower chamber of a closed cartridge fork or the open bath

chamber of the USDs, you are, in effect, adjusting the “air spring”.



<span style="color:#323D4F;So…no problem running about the track

calling the PSF an “air fork” but let’s not get too carried away in

thinking that this is some sort of radical approach to using air instead

of a spring.



<span style="color:#323D4F;So…air verses a metal spring?



<span style="color:#323D4F;What is really important to understand in

answering this question is the dynamics of progression. Progression is a

rate of change based on position. So…as you compress a fork, it becomes

harder and harder to compress. How much harder it becomes, each

additional millimeter, is a measurement of the fork’s progression rate.

Now...in most cases, suspension guys refer to progression as a change

that follows a linear rate, meaning that it doubles in force for each

equal increment in compression. So…if one inch of compression takes 10

pounds of force, then two inches of compression should take 20 pounds of

force. So…we usually think of linear rates as a normal or expected

path, and then use that as a guide to figure out how radical the rate

changes when it becomes non-linear.



<span style="color:#323D4F;So why does that matter?



<span style="color:#323D4F;So…now we get into some interesting stuff.

On the most part, metal springs are designed to progress at a linear

rate…and out of our control, the compression of air of a gas compresses

at a non-linear rate. So that’s means that you have to do some

interesting things to get a fork to behave like we want or need when the

metal spring is removed. This is the reason why the PSF has a

counter-spring – they are using a metal spring to counter the early

progression of forces that are related to the compression of air. So

there.



<span style="color:#323D4F;So what happens to a PSF if the fork seals leak?



<span style="color:#323D4F;In short, you’re hosed. In fact, it’s worse

than what people realize. Here’s why. First, most of the PSF forks will

be operating with a pressure rating between 33 to 40 PSI. Additionally,

there is not a lot of volume involved. What that means is that even a

small fork leak will have a dramatic effect. AND…making matters worse,

the more air you lose, the more the counter or balance spring is going

to want to pull (yes, PULL!) the bike down. So…if the fork seal leaks,

you are in trouble and most likely your day it done.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Could a leaky fork seal cause me to lose a race or have to pull out?



<span style="color:#323D4F;Very much. A change in pressure, of even

just a pound or two of air, is the equivalent of changing your forks

springs from something very stiff to something very soft. Imagine racing

and going from a .48KG spring to a .42KG spring within a few laps? That

could make certain jump launches and whoop sections very tricky if not

completely impossible to hit at any speed. You could also have a severe

failure which would quickly end your day….and could possible mean that

you won’t be going home in something that doesn’t have flashing lights

on top of it.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Yikes! What were they thinking?!?!



<span style="color:#323D4F;So…this is when it’s going to sting just a

bit. In the world of business and manufacturing there is this thing

called, “COGS”, which is short for “Cost of goods sold”. It is the cost

of the material that a manufacture uses to assemble the bike. So…if

Honda purchases a bolt for $2 and last year it cost $3, their COGS went

down $1 and that means they make $1 more per bike this year than last.

NOW…the driving factor for the PSF, (and the SFF) was to reduce to cost,

and the driving factor for reducing COGS was the recession that started

in 2008, which hit manufactures VERY hard. So...the PSF is not about

evolving the technology, it’s about reducing costs. HOWEVER, if you can

evolve the technology some small amount and also reduce cost, then it’s a

good thing. But…we are giving up reliability to gain a small margin of

performance.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Is the PSF a better fork than the standard SSS?



<span style="color:#323D4F;Not really…I mean, it’s here and it’s not

going away. The PSF can certainly be tuned to operate as a better fork,

and performance wise, it might be better out of the box as a SSS, but…in

the real world, in which most of us spend some money to tune our

suspensions, the SSS has a big advantage.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Is the PSF not an engineering marvel?



<span style="color:#323D4F;It is not. In fact, if you started with a

clean slate of designing a “spring-less” fork that offered maximum

performance, this would not be the design. This may have something to do

with why Yamaha is not on board with the PSF, (just assuming). However,

it’s a great compromise between performance and keeping the cost of a

bike low. The 2013-14 SHOWA SFF A-Kit is a much better example of a

pneumatic fork that is ideally engineered. There are also a collection

of high-end downhill mountain bike forks that offer much more

performance over cost reduction.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Does the PSF use the same main seal as other forks?



<span style="color:#323D4F;No. It is a new seal that seals better and

will last longer. However, it also has a higher static friction rating

than a 06-12 seal.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Could I use a standard seal from a 48mm KYB fork?



<span style="color:#323D4F;Yes…and no. Yes, in that it will fit and

work, but…as with most things, there is always a balancing act between

durability and performance. I'm sure we are not too far off from

suspension companies coming out with a "PSF seal" with various claims.

To be honest with you, SKF makes a 48mmHD seal, (part number KIT48KHD)

which would really be the best seal for the PSF. I would upgrade to

this...day one.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Is there something that can be done to keep the fork from failing if the fork seal fails?



<span style="color:#323D4F;Not really. I mean, you could create

something that seals the inner cartridge from the main seal but all that

means is that you just have two seals, which is not much different than

just having one seal with multiple sealing lips. So again, durability

and performance. And certainly, anything that happens with the fork tube

(nick or dent) is going to cause a leak regardless of the seal or

number of seals. I mean, this is a telescopic fork, so…you can run…but

you can’t hide.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Is there anything I can do to make a fork seal last longer and/or not fail?



<span style="color:#323D4F;Yes…don’t wash your bike.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Say what?



<span style="color:#323D4F;When you wash a bike you wash away a layer

of oil on the lower tube (and shock shaft) that actually helps the seal

to seal and to stay healthy. Additionally, when most riders wash their

bikes they leave water behind on the lower tube and due to the minerals

in hard water, that’s like leaving little sanding pads on the fork that

are destined to destroy a seal. The moral of the story? If and when you

wash a bike, clean the suspension chrome (front and rear) of any water

and then lube the tube. A rag with some suspension fluid is best. WD-40

is the worst, (it's a reactive solvent that destroys seals). And never

spray anything around a brake rotor.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Can I take a PSF and easily convert it to a metal compression spring type set-up, as in last year with the SSS fork?



<span style="color:#323D4F;Easy and low cost? No. You can’t simply

just drop in last year’s cartridges with a spring, which if you could,

would run you about $1000 if you purchase the parts from a dealer. In

other words, there is no quick fix to this issue.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Will the fork change as the outside air warms up, or as the fork warms up?



<span style="color:#323D4F;Yes…and this too will be a big problem for

some riders. All gases follow what is called “ideal gas laws” and that

means that as temperatures change, or as you change altitude, the

effective spring rate of the fork will change…and to be honest with you,

it won’t take much. So…in some cases, you may need to adjust the air in

the fork two to three times per track day ride. Even the use of the

front brake will heat the fork and cause the spring rate to change.

So…expect more build-up in the right fork leg than the left.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Will running nitrogen in the fork help?



<span style="color:#323D4F;Yes and no. Nitrogen will still rise in

pressure as outside air or any gas does, (still follows the same laws)

however, nitrogen inherently runs cooler because it takes more energy to

heat it up. Neat…eh?



<span style="color:#323D4F;What was the deal with Pro Circuit saying that the fork didn’t change much when they lost air?



<span style="color:#323D4F;They were not talking about the KYB-PSF,

but were referring to the 2013-14 SHOWA SFF A-kit that they are testing,

which is a very different fork.



<span style="color:#323D4F;So why does the SFF A-kit not fall down into the stroke when lower chamber pressure is reduced?



<span style="color:#323D4F;Because it has different chambers, each of

which are pressurized. So...redundancy. And I would assume that is does

not have any counter/balance springs.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Let me know what questions you guys have and I’ll try and address them.



<span style="color:#323D4F;Dave Johnson

<span style="color:#323D4F;SMART Performance Inc.
 

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