I very likely share your view on those things, but at least they were put in place before a season started. It is tweaking things to the advantage or disadvantage of particular riders when the season is well underway under the rules/with the tyres which were the same for all the field at the start of the season with which I am taking issue. To be clear, my personal conspiracy theory is that Dorna have mainly acted to disadvantage unpopular riders rather than to advantage popular riders including Rossi.
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I very likely share your view on those things, but at least they were put in place before a season started. It is tweaking things to the advantage or disadvantage of particular riders when the season is well underway under the rules/with the tyres which were the same for all the field at the start of the season with which I am taking issue. To be clear, my personal conspiracy theory is that Dorna have mainly acted to disadvantage unpopular riders rather than to advantage popular riders including Rossi.
Ditto Mike and 33.
From what I have seen it was a one or other vote but is being presented in some media as a one or both but that may be that some oft he reports going or seemingly going that way are not primary english sites so may well be a little lost in translation.
Again, open tyre competition should be encouraged and (IMO) if Michelin have capacity to make multiple choices, than they should do so in equal numbers.
From what I have seen it was a one or other vote but is being presented in some media as a one or both but that may be that some oft he reports going or seemingly going that way are not primary english sites so may well be a little lost in translation.
Again, open tyre competition should be encouraged and (IMO) if Michelin have capacity to make multiple choices, than they should do so in equal numbers.
Dani, that says 'for one or two races' they were prepared to provide both tyres as the vote was intended to determine the tyre from Mugello but due to the clarity of the vote they have now decided to provide one tyre only.
Ie, from within your article
Michelin were prepared to continue supplying the current front tyre alongside the stiffer option for 'one or two races'.
Goubert said Michelin would have been happy to offer both front tyres for a limited time: "Last year we had two different constructions during the season and we kept the choice of both at a few races. So it's not unheard of. It makes sense in a way as well.
Both the above comments from the article would indicate that there was a definite limit to two tyres being available, thus and by correlation, the vote was for which tyre to run, not which tyres (although, a closer vote may have seen the other tyre continued to Mugello)
The vote was always for one tyre only from (as I understand) Mugello
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This cant be real...it simply cant be true....sorry it must be fake news....the source is Kelly Anne Conway surely....
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Which of the 20 riders that voted for #70 is Dorna?
And why didnt the majority of Ducati riders not vote against the #70 tyre choice?
Obviously.
I don't go quite as far as some in contending that they are producing tyres specifically to suit Rossi now, quite possibly because it is not really possible to do so admittedly.
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The source is real, and so may the content, what you and Daniboy are having difficulty with is understanding it's meaning. Certainly further explanation on this point is futile, but I'll write it for the benefit of others reading the thread.
You yourself said to Mike that both tires should be made available, but then pointed to the "vote" (outlined in the linked article) which rendered that possibility off the table. Have you asked yourself why this was the only realistic choice? Don't bother, I know the answer. But for the benefit of others, there is no choice! Not a useful one anyway because the "option" to "vote" for both tires is CONDITIONAL! Michelin said they'd consider providing both for maybe a race or two. Not exactly the epitome of conviction. So let me get this straight, our choice is between two extremely similar tires, both basically #70, but the other tire is DEFINITELY slated to be discontinued, yet may be, potentially, probably, chances are, for a race or two. And so the "choice" I have if I pick both, is to waste time gathering data on a discontinued tire rather than begin the work of trying to understand Rossi's tire err I mean the #70? That's my "options"?
Migs and Daniboy, if you were in the predicament of such a "choice" and you're Lorenzo, Viñalez, or any other rider presented with this ridiculous "option", how would you "vote"?
There is only ONE useful "option" rendering the "vote" a complete ........ exercise! It's a vote for the affect of consumption. Judging from Migs and Daniboy's swallowing it whole, I suspect it's fooled many of like mind.
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Dorna does not give a .... about transparency.
They manipulate these votes and changes by putting out multiple conflicting stories so no one is entirely sure what happened.
It's more befitting of some Banana Republic or ex-Eastern bloc country pretending to conduct business under the guise of 'democracy'.
They manipulate these votes and changes by putting out multiple conflicting stories so no one is entirely sure what happened.
It's more befitting of some Banana Republic or ex-Eastern bloc country pretending to conduct business under the guise of 'democracy'.
Like others, you really can't hide your dislike of riders who have dared to beat Rossi to titles can you?
So why should Lorenzo not be peeved about the tyre of his preference being removed mid-season yet again, dress it up as democratic though Dorna have attempted to do yet again?
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Why some people think changing tires in midseason is perfectly acceptable is beyond me.
If there was a true safety need involved with changing tires, I would have no issue with it.
But this all got started because one rider with far too much influence did like not the carcass of the 2017 tire.
If there was a true safety need involved with changing tires, I would have no issue with it.
But this all got started because one rider with far too much influence did like not the carcass of the 2017 tire.
Why can't riders have a vote on all sorts of technical regulation. If they can have a democratic vote on tyres, why not the winglets, minimum weight or pit to rider communication.
Better yet, why not get the riders opinions on penalties and adopt the majority. Lets see what the penalty should be for causing a rider to fall, a rider racing against a championship contender, someone continually dawdling on the racing line during quali or a rider gaining advantage by running off track.
Now the precendent has been set, will we see another vote when Lorenzo or Dani expresses his preference for a different tyre. Will Michelin offer the vote to see if #70 is the correct choice in 4 rounds time as they have done this time. If not, why not. They voted pre season for a tyre, and they voted after round 4 review. When is the next vote? Seems a lot of trouble to go to for something as simple as a tyre, after all everyone has the same and there is no advantage to be gained on spec rubber according to a few on here.
Better yet, why not get the riders opinions on penalties and adopt the majority. Lets see what the penalty should be for causing a rider to fall, a rider racing against a championship contender, someone continually dawdling on the racing line during quali or a rider gaining advantage by running off track.
Now the precendent has been set, will we see another vote when Lorenzo or Dani expresses his preference for a different tyre. Will Michelin offer the vote to see if #70 is the correct choice in 4 rounds time as they have done this time. If not, why not. They voted pre season for a tyre, and they voted after round 4 review. When is the next vote? Seems a lot of trouble to go to for something as simple as a tyre, after all everyone has the same and there is no advantage to be gained on spec rubber according to a few on here.
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Dani and Lorenzo having a vote granted for a tire of their own construct preference???
What sort of madness is this???
If that happened, I'd be looking out my window to see if the 7 trumpets have sounded and the end times are on us!
Exactly.
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It's because riders need confidence with the tires to do what they do, they literally commit their own physical integrity to them at avery single corner, so it's just right they can choose (and yes the Supplier should definitely give the choice to each rider rather than penalizing the minority!); for other issues there is the Safety Commission already where they have their say.
Then of course we all know that tires are the one single component that can influence the performance of the whole package the most, and in a dramatic way. So Manufacturers also could have preferences, but they cannot override their own riders, it wouldn't work. If a bike works better with a certain tire but their riders prefer another one, either the bike or the riders will have to be changed in order to gain optimal performance...
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Ah, conspiracies, conspiracies... 
Just for the record: Michelin have to satisfy the top Manufacturers first, notably Honda and Yamaha. The French know this very well, they've done it for many years, always satisfying both. All those who know (and are honest) know perfectly well that even the famous SNS were given to both Honda and Yamaha factory teams; they were not designed for a specific rider (the very idea of designing a tire for a specific rider doesn't make sense, but we keep hearing such things!).
Of course among the types of tire that work well with a certain bike, riders will have their preferences, but that's secondary and riders usually can adjust within that range.
We have just seen that neither Rossi nor Vinales could perform in Jerez, for some (not yet clarified) tire-related reason; whereas both performed beautifully on the 006 tire at Le Mans, and you bet they will both perform as well on the 070 tire, -- why? Because both of these tires can suit the Yamaha M1, and that's what matters: the bike-tire synergy. If tehre is that synergy, riders can always adjust.
Bridgestone created havoc because they were outsiders, who developed a great tire working with another outsider (Ducati), causing the top riders of Yamaha and Honda to oblige their employers to break their allegiance to Michelin and get the superior Bridgestones.
Then Bridgestones promptly forgot Ducati and got busy working with Hnda and Yamaha, just as Michelin used to do (and do now). Honda twisted the regulations as they always do, to effectively neutralize Ducati, and then took Stoner. Ah! That's history.
Now Honda men have said that the Michelin 070 works better with their bike than the 006, a majority of riders voted for the 070, but for some it's all a Rossi conspiracy.
Yawn.
Just for the record: Michelin have to satisfy the top Manufacturers first, notably Honda and Yamaha. The French know this very well, they've done it for many years, always satisfying both. All those who know (and are honest) know perfectly well that even the famous SNS were given to both Honda and Yamaha factory teams; they were not designed for a specific rider (the very idea of designing a tire for a specific rider doesn't make sense, but we keep hearing such things!).
Of course among the types of tire that work well with a certain bike, riders will have their preferences, but that's secondary and riders usually can adjust within that range.
We have just seen that neither Rossi nor Vinales could perform in Jerez, for some (not yet clarified) tire-related reason; whereas both performed beautifully on the 006 tire at Le Mans, and you bet they will both perform as well on the 070 tire, -- why? Because both of these tires can suit the Yamaha M1, and that's what matters: the bike-tire synergy. If tehre is that synergy, riders can always adjust.
Bridgestone created havoc because they were outsiders, who developed a great tire working with another outsider (Ducati), causing the top riders of Yamaha and Honda to oblige their employers to break their allegiance to Michelin and get the superior Bridgestones.
Then Bridgestones promptly forgot Ducati and got busy working with Hnda and Yamaha, just as Michelin used to do (and do now). Honda twisted the regulations as they always do, to effectively neutralize Ducati, and then took Stoner. Ah! That's history.
Now Honda men have said that the Michelin 070 works better with their bike than the 006, a majority of riders voted for the 070, but for some it's all a Rossi conspiracy.
Yawn.
J4, just with regards the SNS tyres I do recall some comments years back (late 80's, early 90's) where the topic was discussed relatively freely given that it was more widely recognised as occurring.
Yes, certainly the factory teams of the major players received preferential treatment in terms, but as I recall there were some riders who commented that the tyres were made for them, based on their feedback and data, with in some cases team mates having the same opportunity
It may be a 'lost in translation' type of thing but I recall a number of comments around that era, from different riders and different times and all were similar in that Michelin made tyres on an 'individual rider' (my words) basis rather than a team level (I suspect that other manufacturers may have followed suit)
Yes, certainly the factory teams of the major players received preferential treatment in terms, but as I recall there were some riders who commented that the tyres were made for them, based on their feedback and data, with in some cases team mates having the same opportunity
It may be a 'lost in translation' type of thing but I recall a number of comments around that era, from different riders and different times and all were similar in that Michelin made tyres on an 'individual rider' (my words) basis rather than a team level (I suspect that other manufacturers may have followed suit)
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Apparently the 'real' reasons for the majority vote are too 'nuanced' for mere mortals like me to understand.:unsure:Ah, conspiracies, conspiracies...
Just for the record: Michelin have to satisfy the top Manufacturers first, notably Honda and Yamaha. The French know this very well, they've done it for many years, always satisfying both. All those who know (and are honest) know perfectly well that even the famous SNS were given to both Honda and Yamaha factory teams; they were not designed for a specific rider (the very idea of designing a tire for a specific rider doesn't make sense, but we keep hearing such things!).
Of course among the types of tire that work well with a certain bike, riders will have their preferences, but that's secondary and riders usually can adjust within that range.
We have just seen that neither Rossi nor Vinales could perform in Jerez, for some (not yet clarified) tire-related reason; whereas both performed beautifully on the 006 tire at Le Mans, and you bet they will both perform as well on the 070 tire, -- why? Because both of these tires can suit the Yamaha M1, and that's what matters: the bike-tire synergy. If tehre is that synergy, riders can always adjust.
Bridgestone created havoc because they were outsiders, who developed a great tire working with another outsider (Ducati), causing the top riders of Yamaha and Honda to oblige their employers to break their allegiance to Michelin and get the superior Bridgestones.
Then Bridgestones promptly forgot Ducati and got busy working with Hnda and Yamaha, just as Michelin used to do (and do now). Honda twisted the regulations as they always do, to effectively neutralize Ducati, and then took Stoner. Ah! That's history.
Now Honda men have said that the Michelin 070 works better with their bike than the 006, a majority of riders voted for the 070, but for some it's all a Rossi conspiracy.
Yawn.
Personally my opinion is that the author of said 'nuanced' comment is too wrapped in ambition to create stories of underhand dealings, choiceless votes(despite 3 riders voting for something else) and general engineering of a 10th title etc, to notice how widely off the mark his accusations are.
