Michelin 070 chosen by riders

Jumkie said:

J4, with due respect...

This is a thinly 'Val'd attempt at suggesting Marquez is far more MachiaVALlian than Rossi. Because...Marc turned up with doctored papers in hand to prove the wily young faux had helped Lorenzo at Phillip Island by...taking points away from Jorge. Ah yes, Marc, that real crafty genius that deceitful 'smiling' lad. Surely Marc faked those fan pics of VR in his bedroom as an alibi many years into the future.

Rossi admitted in the past to misdirection in tire preference to thwart his rivals-FACT. Misdirection, a skill used by magicians to fool people. You may perceive Rossi's misdirection as a fantastic coup that he pulled off, but I ask you a serious question: do you see that by knowingly using his considerable influence to pick an inferior tire that he put less experienced fellow competitors in danger? You probably have never looked at it in these terms. Probably many reading this post have not considered the unintended subtle consequences and real potential in Rossi’s decision to pick an inferior tire because he made the decision based on a Machiavellian scheme.

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To be fair, I don't think Rossi actually realised that Stoner was genuine (and as it eventuated correct) about the new tyre being substandard and deliberately foisted a substandard tyre on the field, but rather assumed Stoner was playing political games for his own advantage as is Rossi's own wont, and voted to disadvantage Stoner when the decision was fairly neutral for him.

Karma probably worked as the estimable Birdman has said, given I am sure the tyre voted down would have been useful for Valentino in 2013 when he got back on a Yamaha, and the tyre he voted for delaminated on him at a subsequent race.

michaelm said:

I don't because it screws Vinales for being better at utilising the tyre they mostly all voted for the first time, pre-season.


Have both tyres available for the rest of the season unless there is a genuine safety issue is the only fair thing imo as I and others have said. I have no problem with the new construction tyre being the choice for next season as a result of a pre-season majority decision, but not after a season has started when a contending rider has proven more proficient at utilising the existing tyre.

If you want a series where they handicap bikes as the season progresses like WSBK prior to DORNA buying that series fine, but that is not my idea of premier class gp bike racing, and handicapping riders/riding styles is even more malodorous, again imo.

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we're talking on different subject, Mike. I said, "70" tyre vote is fair. I'm pissed when Oxley can dodge every single argument on twitter, and made Rossi look like has made a fair competition through out his career.

On the other hand, I agree 100% that is wrong decision to switch tyre in mid season, unless there were safety issues. All I know is this regarding performance issue by Valentino Rossi in preseason, and MADE michelin to consider a tyre switch in mid season.

I think it comes down to "How much power VR had in the series" topic. He can do whatever he want, he get what he want, its an unfair advantage he had relative to other riders, but it is not cheating. (from kropo's post, long time ago).

michaelm said:

I hadn't realised Vinales was a dissenter. That makes it more like the 2012 vote, because JL is already not a contender for the title this year, while Vinales obviously very much is.
....

Whether or not Dorna were trying to finagle the season outcome this time, it is fairly obvious that tyre votes such as this and the one in 2012 are at least a possible mechanism for doing so.

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It IS the mechanism for doing so. This "vote" serves the same purpose for Viñalez as it did for Lorenzo when both, teammates to Rossi, threatened to make the title chase end 'too soon'. See the inadvertently reported impetus for redeveloping the tire, which was: the tire needed to change 'because' the title was wrapped up too soon last year. Yes, a real crime, and I shall add, a "safety" concern. We can't have a title being wrapped up too soon, we need another engineered 'grand finale'! Well actually, we don't really need a grand finale, we just need VR to win it. Neutralizing Viñalez has become priority #70. (It may or may not work. But it doesn't stop them from trying.)

I might as well add, Honda's greatest challenge these last two years is first and foremost the Michelin tire being designed for the M1. It's not a linear prospect, though I'm sure that's very much the desire. When Honda wins, like they unexpectedly did at Jerez, you can thank the complexity of tire development that's being actively modified with a desired effect. They're not always going to get it just right for Rossi, almost perfect has yielded almost good enough, but they're trying.



"On one side were those who saw Michelin's decision to casually bring a front tire that matched Rossi’s demands as a move favoring the immensely popular nine-time world champion. Those same people explained that it wasn’t a well-known front tire, and he "ALREADY HAS ENOUGH HERE TO DO WHAT HE WANTS.”" SportRider April 10, 2017.

This is the only place that a 20/3 a/b choice majority vote could be interpreted as 'done for Rossi'
:fishing1:

michaelm said:

If you want a series where they handicap bikes as the season progresses like WSBK prior to DORNA buying that series fine, but that is not my idea of premier class gp bike racing, and handicapping riders/riding styles is even more malodorous, again imo.

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Uhm...you may want to revisit the "factory with concessions" class, "open class", and the short lived "factory 2" class. Performance handicapping is very much utilized in GP.

Though at very least the above handicapping is done by the virtues of a dignified rolling rule book, I take your point for which I agree, that moving the Michelin goal post does the same.

danski said:

This is the only place that a 20/3 a/b choice majority vote could be interpreted as 'done for Rossi'
:fishing1:

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Rossi colluded with the Russians to make sure 20 other riders Rossi-subservient riders, including Marquez, all voted for tyre #70...Perfectly plausible...isn't it?


What i cant wait to see if Stoner at the Barcelona test being on the top 3 if not top on the GP17 with the #70 tyre....but that can't happen can it its a Rossi M1 only tyre...right?

danski said:

This is the only place that a 20/3 a/b choice majority vote could be interpreted as 'done for Rossi'
:fishing1:

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I forgot....JLo will be saying its God giving Stoner a boost cause he deserves it....not because of his talent...

michaelm said:

To be fair, I don't think Rossi actually realised that Stoner was genuine (and as it eventuated correct) about the new tyre being substandard and deliberately foisted a substandard tyre on the field, but rather assumed Stoner was playing political games for his own advantage as is Rossi's own wont, and voted to disadvantage Stoner when the decision was fairly neutral for him.

Karma probably worked as the estimable Birdman has said, given I am sure the tyre voted down would have been useful for Valentino in 2013 when he got back on a Yamaha, and the tyre he voted for delaminated on him at a subsequent race.

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So you propose that Rossi didn’t think Stoner was being honest about an inferior tire on the grounds of safety, therefore chose to promote said tire by dishonestly throwing his considerable influence in favor of it? And you propose this to be fair to Rossi as a case for his honest mistake in backing an unsafe tire?

There was a comment attributed to Lorenzo I saw somewhere (will see if I can find it again) where he states (and I am paraphrasing from memory) 'it seems like the powerful riders got their way again'.

So it isn't just here that feels conspiracy

danski said:

This is the only place that a 20/3 a/b choice majority vote could be interpreted as 'done for Rossi'
:fishing1:

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Not at all.

I said that firstly it was unfair to Vinales, and secondly that it was unfair to have a vote in the first place to change tyre construction mid season when it disadvantages a leading contender who had used that tyre better than others who actually voted for said tyre previously.

Provide both tyres for the rest of the season, then I have no problem. How exactly is that biased or a conspiracy theory?

This is worse than 2012 imo, except for Stoner being correct in advance about the tyre being foisted on Honda and him being defective in that instance. At least then it was a pre-season thing with a period of grace/"evaluation", although about the 3rd attempt by good old Loris at a tyre on which Stoner was not too fast for the rest of the field.

HelloMars said:

we're talking on different subject, Mike. I said, "70" tyre vote is fair. I'm pissed when Oxley can dodge every single argument on twitter, and made Rossi look like has made a fair competition through out his career.

On the other hand, I agree 100% that is wrong decision to switch tyre in mid season, unless there were safety issues. All I know is this regarding performance issue by Valentino Rossi in preseason, and MADE michelin to consider a tyre switch in mid season.

I think it comes down to "How much power VR had in the series" topic. He can do whatever he want, he get what he want, its an unfair advantage he had relative to other riders, but it is not cheating. (from kropo's post, long time ago).

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It's not "cheating" because of the fictional validity for the rigging by way of legality, and in the case of this "vote" the pseudo-dignity offered it by this notion of democracy.

In other words, the cheating is made legal, and so by definition it's no longer cheating. When you walk into a casino, every possible advantage the house has is "legal"!

When Rossi competed on SNS, that was "legal". Therefore his overwhelming advantage, as lopsided as it was, was technically not cheating. When Michelin change the tire that Viñalez won the first two races with, like the tire change after Lorenzo went on that winning run with after Jerez in 2015, that change was "legal". When Michelin make and bring un-usable tire "options" to a race, effectively forcing most to acquiesce or take a tire gamble on conditions, that is "legal". It is legal, yes, but it is also a form of stacking the deck. The advantages the casino enjoys are legal. But in the settings of competition, it's legal .........




Mat Oxley is a hack.

MigsAngel said:

Rossi colluded with the Russians to make sure 20 other riders Rossi-subservient riders, including Marquez, all voted for tyre #70...Perfectly plausible...isn't it?


What i cant wait to see if Stoner at the Barcelona test being on the top 3 if not top on the GP17 with the #70 tyre....but that can't happen can it its a Rossi M1 only tyre...right?

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What didn't you understand about the fair and reasonable outcome bring both tyres continuing to be available in the case of a mid season tyre change for other than safety reasons?

I am hardly the forum's biggest Vinales fan.

michaelm said:

Not at all.

I said that firstly it was unfair to Vinales, and secondly that it was unfair to change tyre construction mid season when it disadvantages a leading contender who had used that tyre better than others who actually voted for said tyre previously.

Provide boyh tyres for the rest of the season, then I have no problem. How exactly is that biased or a conspiracy theory?

This is worse than 2012 imo, except for Stoner being correct in advance about the tyre being foisted on Honda and him being defective in that instance. At least then it was a pre-season thing with a period of grace/"evaluation", although about good old Loris's 3rd attempt at a tyre on which Stoner was not too fast for the rest of the field.

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I agreed that both tyres should be available, the riders chose not to have both so your complaints should be addressed to them.
So you also think this was 'done for Rossi' ?

Jumkie said:

So you propose that Rossi didn’t think Stoner was being honest about an inferior tire on the grounds of safety, therefore chose to promote said tire by dishonestly throwing his considerable influence in favor of it? And you propose this to be fair to Rossi as a case for his honest mistake in backing an unsafe tire?

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I didn't think it was fair at all, in which regard I had a different opinion to you at the time, just that Rossi voted for the tyre in the belief that it would neither impede or help him, but would disadvantage Stoner, hardly noble, but not from what I can tell believing the tyre was an unsafe tyre in general. I doubt he would have voted for the tyre if he had actually known it would delaminate on him in a future race.

Gaz said:

There was a comment attributed to Lorenzo I saw somewhere (will see if I can find it again) where he states (and I am paraphrasing from memory) 'it seems like the powerful riders got their way again'.

So it isn't just here that feels conspiracy

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See the pre-event press conference for La Mans. He basically reiterates the point you're trying to remember. In the presser he said, if we're going to change the tire to accommodate "a rider's complaint" then we should also provide the tires for those who want the other tire.

The point is obvious, though as you can see from Migs & Daniboy's response above, it's far too nuanced for them.

Here are your choices:

A: ●#70
B: ●

(You can't tell, but B is almost identical but slightly inferior to A.)

Vote.

michaelm said:

What didn't you understand about the fair and reasonable outcome bring both tyres continuing to be available in the case of a mid:season tyre change for other than safety reasons?

I am hardly the forum's biggest Vinales fan.

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I think that they should bring both tyres so riders could have a choice....however, that was not the outcome of the vote by a huge margin....

Perhaps if JLo stopped bitching so much as about other riders or thinking he is above all the others in some way that he might have more sway with them when he needs their support....like on this vote......
Funny how JLo couldnt even influence Dovi, Petrux, Redding, Bautista, Barbera or ABraham to vote his way...but at least he was able to influence Baz to his Ducati cause...

danski said:

I agreed that both tyres should be available, the riders chose not to have both so your complaints should be addressed to them.
So you also think this was 'done for Rossi' ?

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I was not aware it was a one or both vote. If it was, please cite
your source, just for my own information if this comes up in the future; I have been reliably informed by one of your fellow travellers that the 2012 tyre vote didn't actually occur after all.

Even if so, my whole point is that a mid season vote to remove an existing tyre is not to put too fine a point on it complete billdhit in the first place. If there are safety issues then there shouldn't be a vote either, and hasn't been one to my knowledge.

Exactly Michael. It was a one or the other vote, pretty simple. Even the obvious is missed by Rossi appologists.

MigsAngel said:

I think that they should bring both tyres so riders could have a choice....however, that was not the outcome of the vote by a huge margin....

Perhaps if JLo stopped bitching so much as about other riders or thinking he is above all the others in some way that he might have more sway with them when he needs their support....like on this vote......
Funny how JLo couldnt even influence Dovi, Petrux, Redding, Bautista, Barbera or ABraham to vote his way...but at least he was able to influence Baz to his Ducati cause...

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I agree that Lorenzo's predicament is to influence other riders to help him counteract Rossi's influence over Dorna. Unfortunately, the influence Rossi has over Dorna is far to heavy, weighing perhaps the amount of a motorhome.

If Lorenzo's response to Miller's rude comment in public is bitching, then by your standard, Rossi has got to be King ...... Please Zarco, don't race me so hard. Don't you know the Unwritten Rule?

michaelm said:

I was not aware it was a one or both vote. If it was, please cite
your source, just for my own information if this comes up in the future; I have been reliably informed by one of your fellow travellers that the 2012 tyre vote didn't actually occur after all.

Even if so, my whole point is that a mid season vote to remove an existing tyre is not to put too fine a point on it complete billdhit in the first place. If there are safety issues then there shouldn't be a vote either, and hadn't been one to my knowledge.

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Roll drums.....
Tada..

MotoGP France: Michelin: Riders voted against having both tyres | MotoGP 0
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