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Matt Roberts says: Hayden to Aspar, Espargaro to NGM

Hawk, I agree that Wsbk is by GP fans considered the junior series, but even then, some names will regardless stand out. Do you know why GP fans, and generally 'motoracing' fans know the following names: Edwards, Bayliss, Haga, Toesland, Hodgson, Fogerty? Not because of how they did in GP, I can assure you. I agree that Wsbk doesn't have half the notoriety as GP. But when you become a champion, people will know your name. We are talking about motoracing fans, even the ones following GP predominantly will recognize these names. Nicky is unique in that group because he is a GP WC. If he were wining races, podiums, etc, and possibly win a Wsbk title, I'm not sure how he would become completely irrelevant'. Anyway, we are talking about the contrast between Nicky riding around in GP for 10th place vs Wsbk title contender. I would give the edge of relevance to a Wsbk contender. Considering this, GP looks to Wsbk in some cases to promote rider, recently Spies, Crutchlow, and before that Toesland, today rumors persist that JRea is a topic for GP promotion. GP fans see Wsbk very much as relevant. I would argue (as I have quite to the annoyance of many) that its Dorna pushing its own feeder categories (Moto2/3/CEV), attempting to make Wsbk irrelevant. The savvy and informed motoracing fan understands that Wsbk does not lack talent, if you give a guy an opportunity in GP (which Dorna in my opinion frustrate) you will see results. Spies for all the crap he is getting is in fact a GP race winner (close to 2), pole setter, podium finisher, Crutchlow, pole setter multipodum finisher, this when on competitive machinery. If you want a contrast, look at Bradl, an actual Moto2 champion, on a factory spec bike, one single solitary podium (with caveats). Aoyoma, no podiums, poles, or wins, yet a Moto2 champ, Simonchelli, also Moto2 champs, on a factory spec, no MotoGP wins and less podiums than Crutchlow. And bear in mind, Crutchlow only won two races in Wsbk, that is it. Its the ignorant fan who thinks Wsbk is not competitive or relevant at best, at worst its the gullible naive fan (not saying you) who swallows Dorna's choice to feed the premier class suggesting its the only route of selecting worthy riders. Of course people will point to the top 3 riders currently in the championship, and I of course will point to the machinates that I'm sure by now nobody wants to hear from me.
 
Jumkie
3613751379368080

Hawk, I agree that Wsbk is by GP fans considered the junior series, but even then, some names will regardless stand out.  Do you know why GP fans, and generally 'motoracing' fans know the following names: Edwards, Bayliss, Haga, Toesland, Hodgson, Fogerty?  Not because of how they did in GP, I can assure you.  I agree that Wsbk doesn't have half the notoriety as GP.  But when you become a champion, people will know your name.  We are talking about motoracing fans, even the ones following GP predominantly will recognize these names.  Nicky is unique in that group because he is a GP WC.  If he were wining races, podiums, etc, and possibly win a Wsbk title, I'm not sure how he would become "completely irrelevant'.  Anyway, we are talking about the contrast between Nicky riding around in GP for 10th place vs Wsbk title contender.  I would give the edge of "relevance" to a Wsbk contender.  Considering this, GP looks to Wsbk in some cases to promote rider, recently Spies, Crutchlow, and before that Toesland, today rumors persist that JRea is a topic for GP promotion.  GP fans see Wsbk very much as relevant.  I would argue (as I have quite to the annoyance of many) that its Dorna pushing its own feeder categories (Moto2/3/CEV), attempting to make Wsbk irrelevant.
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Yes they do see it as relevant, and talking about GP to WSB winners, they didn't come much higher profile than John Kocinski, 250 wc, many 500 wins and a WSB title
 
Jumkie
3613721379360835

Interesting thoughts Kesh, but I seriously doubt this was factored in to Nicky's decision making process. I think it would be harder for Edwards to "psychologically" return to Wsbk, but for Nicky its still uncharted territory. I'm not sure what you mean by riders who "walked away from GP...had really come closed to achieving a WC". Not sure if you mean riders who have left GP for Wsbk were unaccomplished, or riders who rode in GP were unaccomplished in Wsbk. But Melandri was a runner-up in MotoGP, and has something like 5 wins in the series, and should have been a Wsbk WC had he not melted down the last couple of rounds. Checa, ok not quite"coming close to a WC in GP" is also a GP retread with a Wsbk title, not just Biaggi, and, if I can add Sylvain Guintoli, who is poised to win a Wsbk title, also a former GP rider (not high profile given he rode on Dunlops, but that is my point when I make the case about parity in GP leading spectators to make erroneous conclusions about rider's talent). Nori Haga also can be placed in this category of former GP riders, as it may be a bit of a stretch to some, did actually compete two years in GP (again, parity being an issue me thinks), but the man came runner up several times in Wsbk (and should have been a champ in his own right had it not been for some ........ technicality). Ok, perhaps the guys like Nori and Guintoli, were less vested, but not for the guys like Biaggi or Melandri. Who like Nicky are something like outside the country club. Who is in that country club is a mystery, but Stoner, the fastest man on earth at one time was not in that country club, where as Pol Espargaro, a multi year runner-up in a sub-category seems to be a hard-cover card carrying member. Sponsorship money? Have you noticed that Nicky does not have a cap/helmet energy drink logo? Unlike every other high profile rider. Why? All the other "high profile" riders do, so not sure what would diminish, as he hardly has a "boat load of sponsorship money". His pops and mum sell Hayden bro tees and trinkets from a tiny vendors tent. Kesh, I honestly think Nicky's values are at odds in GP, they always have been, thats why the series has ate him up after his 06 title. This humble guy still takes vacations with his entire family, lives on the family plot, doesn't drink alcohol (asked his dad if he could taste the champagne after his first GP win, fact) and apologizes for race moves that he thinks are unbecoming of that dirt track ethic "ah shucks country boy" mentality. Why you think partly driving his decision to stay in GP is because of his addiction of the "taste for the good life" simply doesn't jive with the reality of his actual private lifestyle. Have you seen his girlfriend? This chick isn't a monster energy knock out, but rather humble looking, chosing to stay out of the limelight, unlike say all the other rider's hot GF's. I saw here at Laguna, chilling with Earl, looking so unassuming. (Which btw, reminds me, oh Lordy, do yourself a favor everybody, look up the umbrella grid .... standing next to Bradley Smith at Misano!)Honestly, very few people perceive VR's performance sub par (except us on PS who scrutinize GP in detail). He is still arriving on the podium occasionally, a race win to boot, and the Dorna force TV feed is still obsessed with glamor shots. His hats and Tshirts are still selling like tea in china. He will quit when he wants, because he simply is a cash cow for Dorna, which means he can write his own ticket. I'm pretty sure if we were to ask Dovi privately if he were offered a way out of Ducati onto one of the four factory Japanese bikes, would he take it? He'd leave in a heartbeat. I suppose your point is however that this "rockstar" status is what keeps Nicky in GP. If that were the case, I'd have you (and more importantly him) consider that Nicky would be THEE rockstar in Wsbk. He would be the instant Valentino/Marquez of Wsbk, every pit egress and ingress would be the subject to show us the new and exciting prospect, every slow motion would be subject to watch Nicky's form, every series promo video would prominently have him front center, event posters would have his face and bike plastered as big as life, and the longest lines would be to get his autograph. Think about it, who would rival Nicky's rockstar status if he were in that paddock? Sykes? Guintoli? Laverty? Melandri? Davies? JRea? ...., though most are cool blokes (except Jrea) Non are as accomplished and certainly none as fabulously pretty. Nicky would stand out as the lead singer of that band, the face of the series, thee 'rockstar'.
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Respectfully I think on some level your disagreeing with me is mostly about our disparate views on the status of certain riders who made the move from MGP to WSBK. Guintoli had talent - but promoters and teams didn't give him the respect (or the cash) he felt he deserved. Melandri - talented as he is - was too inconsistent to ever be in the upper ranks. Checa - ballsy but essentially only above average and too old to be really valued in the big game. Nori (a personal hero in my book) left because he didn't have the huge ego and was able to do the pragmatic thing; one more reason why I have such immense respect for him.

 

As far as Nicky is concerned - I would maintain that guys like us - only ever get a peek into what passes for his personal life. Maybe it's too many years working with musicians and show business people - but I've known guys that project that NH kind of persona to the public, but are ....... every thing that moves when the plain Jane homegirl ain't around. Nicky's a rockstar and that's what rockstars do. I make no specific accusations - but draw only from experience of human nature and the behavior of healthy young guys who spend that much time on the road with hot and cold running ..... always on tap.

 

As to your point about VR - I don't think he's going to lose his value as a seller of t-shirts anytime soon. But the world is moving on and when the current contract is up, there isn't going to be a renewal. Maybe not another Spanish rider but someone young. It wasn't that long ago that he was toying with Dani and beating him regularly. Now he's lucky to get within 10 seconds of him. It was a battle to get him the seat for this season. Come contract time it's going to be, "What have you done for me lately?"

 

Again with the show biz analogy: For a former world champion going to WSBK - would be like a major Broadway show moving from an elegant old theater in Times Square - to a 150 seat off-Broadway house in Alphabet City. I don't think Nicky feels like he has anything to prove (again) in the world of Superbike. It's only a gut feeling of course - but I just don't think he wants to be a big frog in a small pond. From time to time I hear about guys I went to school with and I've done much better than all of them - but I have no desire to go to my high-school reunion and tell everyone how much more I've accomplished than them, which is about what I imagine it would be like for him to go to WSBK. You know the old saying: You can never go home. It's true Dude.
 
Someone still can't tell me wtf "The Kentucky Squid" did in his career another then a stupid fluke championship (2 wins).


 


He has 180 GP's in his career on production bikes, and have only 3 freakin' wins and 5 poles (Thanks Wikipedia).  This chump is nothing but a marketing tool............... face it, he plain SUCKS.  There's just no way around that FACT. 


 


Yeah I know...... it makes you feel good inside to root for an 'underdog'.  But time to quit the act.  This sorry excuse for a racer has been milking motorcycle racing for long enough, time to hang his helmet.
 
I think this is a good move by Nicky from the rumors i hear its only one year deal. when next year the muscial chairs will begin again who knows if he has a great season then he might get back to a factory ride (wishful thinking) if not he might just go to wsbk aprilla which last i checked is a pretty good bike. so i think he will do fine 
 
SS56...where are the Shinya threads on this site discussing his championships, or how much people like to cheer him on?  Oh that's right, he's got one fan on this site; unless you start threads discussing him yourself there won't be any....so shut the .... up and let it go.  Your almost as bad as Migs, at least Migs is a little more original with his disdain for Nicky.


 


Nicky Hayden 2006 World Champion
 
Hayden has taken Barbera's title as the tow truck in MotoGP. He just follows Dovizioso around like a lost puppy.
 
Sloth, what else can he do, he's probably worried that Ducati didn't have enough material to finish bolting his bike together and needed a tow back to the pits.....I mean after all they didn't have enough material to give him the new frame to test today which is a ........ excuse.   Ducati really? You think Nicky is going to take the knowledge of their next step frame and use it against them next year?  
 
Kesh, fair enuf (though I disagree). L8, both guys trolling (though at least SS did it wittingly). If Ducati and Dorna dont pull something extraordinary, its gonna be very interesting to see Dovi & Cal (two undisputed podium contenders).
 
Jumkie
3613841379377828

Kesh, fair enuf. L8, both guys trolling (though at least SS did it wittingly). If Ducati and Dorna dont pull something extraordinary, its gonna be very interesting to see Dovi & Cal (two undisputed podium contenders).
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I would also rather see Nicky winning in WSBK than trundling around on a CRT bike. Unfortunately Dorna have control  of both series now, so WSBK is as others have been saying likely to be dumbed down.


 


I am more with Keshav than you about most of the WSBK riders you mention; the big cross comparison for me is Rossi and Edwards when Rossi rode with him in the Suzuka superbike race, or even when he got on the Yamaha superbike in 2010 whilst recovering from his fracture. I don't think Melandri was really top class, and he was not treated badly for much of his career, did well for Gresini but not on a Yamaha, then had the bad luck to end up on a Ducati even though it was his earnest wish at the time with him and everyone else thinking he was going to the "best bike on the grid", then more bad luck in signing for Kawasaki as they were about to be no more. Guintoli is one guy about whom  I might agree with you , the Tech 3 bikes in his time were on Dunlops as you say and his performances for Pramac weren't all that bad in retrospect which didn't stop him bring treated by Ducati with their usual disdain where riders are concerned.
 
Arrabbiata1
3613461379338793

Not so sure about that and I don't think that aspect of the move would phase a personable guy like Nicky in the slightest. The WSB paddock is renowned for being much more laid back and convivial than its relatively regimental GP counterpart. As far as I'm aware, no one has ever found a move from GP to WSBk as you describe 'stressful' or 'traumatic'. On the contrary most comment on what a breath of fresh air the experience is - even 'Lil John said words to that effect and he was largely lampooned and persecuted for his behaviour when he got there.   If anything any negative transition is in the other direction...I remember Troy Corser being particularly vocal about this in '96 (was it?). I think it would actually suit Nicky more.
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Good counterpoint to Keshav's post. I find myself in agreement with you both, but I'd also wager that the SBK paddocks of the money-sloshing mid-90s are no longer so convivial. Much more professional and controlled now....like most sport. I rememeber Troy's comments, but then I also recall that he had a shocker of a year in 500GP and returned to the arena of his success, SBK, so he might be a little jaundiced in his views. Not that he would have been wrong, but the tightening up started under Bernie's brief reign (early 90s??) when the motorhomes had to be properly arranged and the riders complained about not being able to hang washing lines off them anymore....now, they don't even let the Moto2/3 stay, they need all that room for wanky hospitality suites and ....... Corporate Relations and press officers.
 
Remember when Simoncelli rocked up for a quick go on the Aprilia WSBK. He finished on the podium in front of Biaggi. The series has been second rate since the end of the Edwards/Bayliss era.


 


Hayden doesn't want to go there because he doesn't rate it, and I don't blame him.
 
Sloth_27
3614021379410981

Remember when Simoncelli rocked up for a quick go on the Aprilia WSBK. He finished on the podium in front of Biaggi. The series has been second rate since the end of the Edwards/Bayliss era.


 


Hayden doesn't want to go there because he doesn't rate it, and I don't blame him.
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Nah.....He is simply looking at the series looking at his offers in the Series, he decided that he'd not do as well as Spies did in his rookie year.....and so made a Hodor business decision not to jeopardize his alleged 'Rockstar' status by getting spanked by a bunch of SBK riders better than him....


You cant blame him for being scared.....
 
Sloth_27
3614021379410981

Remember when Simoncelli rocked up for a quick go on the Aprilia WSBK. He finished on the podium in front of Biaggi. The series has been second rate since the end of the Edwards/Bayliss era.


 


Hayden doesn't want to go there because he doesn't rate it, and I don't blame him.
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Agreed, I liked WSB in the 90s better than MGP, there was huge rivalry between Fogarty, Edwards and Slight, we also had Corser, Chili,  Haga and Kocinski, the list of potential winners was huge compared to MGP, then we had another group take over with Bayliss, Toseland  and Hogson, they all crossed over in that ten to twelve year period, then it all went wrong in my opinion, you now have 15 on the grid, no open rivalry to get the fans exited, Sykes is a good rider no question but he is boring, Biaggi was the last controversial figure, it needs a massive shake up, dump the factories and expensive electronics, go to the same rules as BSB  and make it easy and affordable for teams who go well in domestic superbike series to go and race in WSB, the reason they don't is they can't compete with factory teams.
 
thedeal
3614051379413635

Agreed, I liked WSB in the 90s better than MGP, there was huge rivalry between Fogarty, Edwards and Slight, we also had Corser, Chili,  Haga and Kocinski, the list of potential winners was huge compared to MGP, then we had another group take over with Bayliss, Toseland  and Hogson, they all crossed over in that ten to twelve year period, then it all went wrong in my opinion, you now have 15 on the grid, no open rivalry to get the fans exited, Sykes is a good rider no question but he is boring, Biaggi was the last controversial figure, it needs a massive shake up, dump the factories and expensive electronics, go to the same rules as BSB  and make it easy and affordable for teams who go well in domestic superbike series to go and race in WSB, the reason they don't is they can't compete with factory teams.
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Agree. There have been exceptions, such as Darryl Healey's GSE team. Saying that, they had a very close link with Ducati and this was during the years when the championship was still unfairly skewed towards the brand. WSBk peaked in the late '90s - although the 750cc restriction on the fours was ...... The only good thing to come out of that ruling was this....


 


14725:tu678u1.jpg]


 


The record books would read very differently had it not been for the capacity imposition on the Jap factories. At least it spawned the SP1 and 2 (RC51) which challenged the hegemony of the Italian twin.


 


The wonderful thing about WSB was that it had tremendous character/character(s)at a time when GP was largely faceless. The demise of the two strokes has meant that there is far more crossover between both series, which is a good thing - particularly given the similarities between Moto 2 and Supersport. WSB will always be seen as a regressive/backward career move though.
 

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thedeal
3614051379413635

Agreed, I liked WSB in the 90s better than MGP, there was huge rivalry between Fogarty, Edwards and Slight, we also had Corser, Chili,  Haga and Kocinski, the list of potential winners was huge compared to MGP, then we had another group take over with Bayliss, Toseland  and Hogson, they all crossed over in that ten to twelve year period, then it all went wrong in my opinion, you now have 15 on the grid, no open rivalry to get the fans exited, Sykes is a good rider no question but he is boring, Biaggi was the last controversial figure, it needs a massive shake up, dump the factories and expensive electronics, go to the same rules as BSB  and make it easy and affordable for teams who go well in domestic superbike series to go and race in WSB, the reason they don't is they can't compete with factory teams.
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How could have I forgot my all time hero on the list, Giancarlo Falappa, the lion was so naturally talented and as hard as nails, I was at Albacete when he got hurt, a very sad time, I have met him twice since the accident and he is so upbeat about the whole thing, Carl would not have had it so easy during that period if Falappa had not got hurt, as I forgot him I will now go and chastise myself.
 
Sloth_27
3614021379410981

Remember when Simoncelli rocked up for a quick go on the Aprilia WSBK. He finished on the podium in front of Biaggi. The series has been second rate since the end of the Edwards/Bayliss era.


 


Hayden doesn't want to go there because he doesn't rate it, and I don't blame him.
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It's been boring since Spies left. I had to drag myself to the screen to watch it.
 
thedeal
3614181379421061

How could


 


How could have I forgot my all time hero on the list, Giancarlo Falappa, the lion was so naturally talented and as hard as nails, I was at Albacete when he got hurt, a very sad time, I have met him twice since the accident and he is so upbeat about the whole thing, Carl would not have had it so easy during that period if Falappa had not got hurt, as I forgot him I will now go and chastise myself.
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In Fogarty's autobiography there's a great bit about him driving golf balls over the paddock but I can't recall where
 
Sloth_27 said:
Remember when Simoncelli rocked up for a quick go on the Aprilia WSBK. He finished on the podium in front of Biaggi. The series has been second rate since the end of the Edwards/Bayliss era.

.
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Remember when [Bayliss] rocked up for a quick go on the [Ducati GP]. He finished on the [top step of the] podium in front of [all the best riders in the world]. [This proves] the series has been second rate since the end of the [most competitive] era.

Ur attempt at insight above, similar to u saying Hayden is following around looking for tows as Barbers, I think is devoid of broader analysis.
 

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