Making the case for Marquez

povol · Jul 3, 2018

This is all stuff most of us have debated for years, but it’s good to see the narrative is slowly starting to change.

MotoGP: ?Making The Case For Marc Marquez Being The GOAT (Greatest Of All Time)

synn · Jul 3, 2018

I don’t know about GOAT, but he could certainly pass for a horse with those teeth.

evo9 · Jul 3, 2018

synn said:
I don’t know about GOAT, but he could certainly pass for a horse with those teeth.

Being an ... as usual .........

Spygoat · Jul 3, 2018

awesome article. I agree with it, to a point. I just can't discount the dominance of riders like Ago, Doohan and Rossi based solely on those factors. Their sheer talent and skill are more of a factor.

evo9 · Jul 3, 2018

I'll wrap this up with a hypothetical question: If the rules were the same as they were in 2014 for the machine (no spec electronics), Marquez had a legendary crew chief in his garage, and Michelin would cook special tires for him for specific tracks for specific race weekends ... would he ever lose a race again?

Never!

Bern1 · Jul 3, 2018

Hey, that reads like Jumkie could have written it! Is his real name Michael Gougis?
Just kidding, I used to race with Michael at Willow Springs in the 90’s and he is definitely an informed enthusiast.
Good to see this in print in a mag like RW. I haven’t read it in a long time but their journalism has always had integrity.

Marquez is disproving that old saw that the greatest don’t crash very often.....when he stops doing that look out!

evo9 · Jul 3, 2018

Spygoat said:
awesome article. I agree with it, to a point. I just can't discount the dominance of riders like Ago, Doohan and Rossi based solely on those factors. Their sheer talent and skill are more of a factor.

All three had additional advantage outside of their talent for their given period. There is nothing to disagree about on that point. It was proven when rossi switched to Bridgestones.

McZee · Jul 3, 2018

Spygoat said:
awesome article. I agree with it, to a point. I just can't discount the dominance of riders like Ago, Doohan and Rossi based solely on those factors. Their sheer talent and skill are more of a factor.

I don't know, mate. I think that the dominance Marc has shown is in a time when the bikes are really close to each other in terms of performance and he has been the deciding factor.
For me Vale's longevity is what get's him a place in the GOAT discussion.
Marc does things on a bike that nobody has ever been able to do.
Age for age I really cannot see anyone beating Marc except Casey (if he got some air between them) and maybe Jarno Saarinen.

michaelm · Jul 3, 2018

McZee said:
I don't know, mate. I think that the dominance Marc has shown is in a time when the bikes are really close to each other in terms of performance and he has been the deciding factor.
For me Vale's longevity is what get's him a place in the GOAT discussion.
Marc does things on a bike that nobody has ever been able to do.
Age for age I really cannot see anyone beating Marc except Casey (if he got some air between them) and maybe Jarno Saarinen.

I tend to agree, but he hasn't had Rossi's longevity as yet, and i understand much of what is being said about him in this article also applied to Mike Hailwood.

I would rate him higher than Doohan personally, but the dismissal of Doohan as being on a dominant bike on which he was presented few hurdles is a little facile. Even apart from the bike being as much of a rival as the opposing riders on a 500 2 -stroke and constantly trying to kill you, and succeeding in crippling Doohan to the extent he had to have a special hand/thumb operated brake, he was dominating other greats of the sport in the year of his injury, HRC gave Criville and other riders his settings, and iirc there were 5 identical Hondas on the grid in one of his championship years. Positing a bike advantage as being due to a bike only he could ride also seems a trifle contradictory. I would also, like Birdman, put in a word for Lawson.

I don't think there is any way MM could ride one of those vicious golden era 500 2-strokes the way he rides a 4-stroke, although I have no doubt he would quickly develop an appropriate different method.

p4p1 · Jul 4, 2018

It really echoes a lot of stuff that has been said on here.

Spygoat · Jul 4, 2018

McZee said:
I don't know, mate. I think that the dominance Marc has shown is in a time when the bikes are really close to each other in terms of performance and he has been the deciding factor.
For me Vale's longevity is what get's him a place in the GOAT discussion.
Marc does things on a bike that nobody has ever been able to do.
Age for age I really cannot see anyone beating Marc except Casey (if he got some air between them) and maybe Jarno Saarinen.

Oh, I agree fully, I am a MM supporter, he is an incredible rider. I just feel that for their era, each rider has displayed dominance that few have matched or exceeded. The rules and culture at the time dictated how they went about it. The argument that they had success due to an unfair advantage does not address the question of "what would they have done in this era?" Rossi's age and his performance at this stage makes me believe that he would have been just as successful as a 22 year old in this era.

BarryMachine · Jul 4, 2018

As good as Marquez is I still place Stoner above him on shear skills on a bike. Stoner knew how to do things on a bike and how to operate the machine to get round inadequacies. Marquez is getting there though.

Barbedwirebikerr · Jul 4, 2018

BarryMachine said:
As good as Marquez is I still place Stoner above him on shear skills on a bike. Stoner knew how to do things on a bike and how to operate the machine to get round inadequacies. Marquez is getting there though.

Stoner. With some more time would have a greater legitimacy in the argument. He retired too early, not for him, but for the debate. He had a skill set unmatched, he can still punt one of these GP machines at record or near record pace in a test years after hanging the helmet. He is great. He did have a peculiar style and knack to ride a comparatively non competitive bike to wins.

Had he hung around, we could have measured him against Marc, whom I believe has a hand and fingertips on the GOAT label.

I do believe Marc would not have been as dominant in his first two seasons, likely still won the WC's, but stoner would have brought more competition to the table.

BarryMachine · Jul 4, 2018

Stoner had plenty of time. And nobody new machines like him. End of.

Barbedwirebikerr · Jul 4, 2018

BarryMachine said:
Stoner had plenty of time. And nobody new machines like him. End of.

He didn't hang around long enough. Yeah he had an uncanny skill, so does Marquez. Marquez is in the convo, stoner ain't. If he had measured himself against Marc, there'd be more to argue. He didn't. Stoner is great. Marquez may be the greatest. So far.

synn · Jul 4, 2018

Marquez is a great rider. There’s no arguing that.
However, he jumped on a championship winning bike, won more championships and stayed on that bike.

When Rossi mounted the M1 at Welkom in 2004, no one expected him to win the race, let alone the championship. Let me know when Marquez does that. Then let’s talk GOATdom.

michaelm · Jul 4, 2018

synn said:
Marquez is a great rider. There’s no arguing that.
However, he jumped on a championship winning bike, won more championships and stayed on that bike.

When Rossi mounted the M1 at Welkom in 2004, no one expected him to win the race, let alone the championship. Let me know when Marquez does that. Then let’s talk GOATdom.

Eddie Lawson. He and Mike Hailwood could ride any bike. Rossi didn’t prove able to do so, and MM hasn’t yet as you say.

MdubSTYLIE · Jul 4, 2018

synn said:
Marquez is a great rider. There’s no arguing that.
However, he jumped on a championship winning bike, won more championships and stayed on that bike.

When Rossi mounted the M1 at Welkom in 2004, no one expected him to win the race, let alone the championship. Let me know when Marquez does that. Then let’s talk GOATdom.

I agree that Rossi at Welkom was a defining moment in his career. But I don't agree that because Marc has been on honda, a good bike every year, that he should be discredited. Bottom line is Marc does things on a regular base that no other rider can pull off on their luckiest day. Not even Stoner. Marc isn't just the GOAT he is the new and improved GMO GOAT.

p4p1 · Jul 4, 2018

How would Rossi have gone going to the m1 with control tyres and limited testing? Maybe something similar to what happened when he went to Ducati?

synn · Jul 4, 2018

p4p1 said:
How would Rossi have gone going to the m1 with control tyres and limited testing? Maybe something similar to what happened when he went to Ducati?

Ended both years as the best rider of a dog .... bike?
Yes, he would have.

Making the case for Marquez

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