Lorenzo - I don't care about MotoGP championship

GeniusAtTwerk said:

Rossi injured his shoulder in motocross between Qatar and Jerez, then proceeded to lose significant amount of ground compared to his rivals at the end of both Jerez and Le Mans races with Rossi complaining about the pain, then he took himself out in Mugello for four races and after he returned he proceeded to lose significant amount of ground to his rivals at the latter halfs of almost every race. Who knows whether he would've finished any differently in Jerez and Le Mans or is he would've crashed anyway in Mugello, but to act like the shoulder wasn't a factor at all doesn't seem right to me.

I've spent about 95% of my time here genuinely debating and the rest doing something else, I'd say that's more than a fair ratio.

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Then he shouldn't have crashed motocrossing ffs in addition to avoiding crashing during the season. Did Lorenzo kidnap Ucchio and hold him at gunpoint to force Rossi to go motocrossing, then let down his tyres?

What we do know is that Lorenzo rode very well and beat everyone that showed up on the grid to race him and could do no more just as MM could do no more than win the PI 2015 race, concepts you seem unable to grasp.

#22 said:

But you are completely incapable of accepting any criticism of Rossi.

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That's not true, he's obviously a flawed individual like any person in the world. I personally criticised his performances during races this year as they have been the difference in making his championship aspirations this year go from great to almost non-existent.

Saying that everything in this sport for the last 15 years has been rigged for Rossi or that Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez are far superior than him aren't really even criticisms of Rossi, but rather something else completely.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

Saying that everything in this sport for the last 15 years has been rigged for Rossi or that Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez are far superior than him aren't really even criticisms of Rossi, but rather something else completely.

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And completely different from saying the 2015 season was rigged against Rossi?

GeniusAtTwerk said:

That's not true, he's obviously a flawed individual like any person in the world. I personally criticised his performances during races this year as they have been the difference in making his championship aspirations this year go from great to almost non-existent.

Saying that everything in this sport for the last 15 years has been rigged for Rossi or that Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez are far superior than him aren't really even criticisms of Rossi, but rather something else completely.

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Comparing riders in head to head competition is about as close as you are going to get to determining who is the superior rider. And in those head to head comparisons, Lorenzo on the same bike and tires has dominated Rossi, Stoner on an inferior bike for 5 of the 7 years he raced dominated Rossi. We wont get into Marquez because that is a different era but he has dominated everyone.

moto vudu said:

Wonder how his team feels about that statement. "We" are not competitive? The M1 is competitive, not the team's fault the weather and track conditions haven't been 100% perfect for him this season.

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Oh no Vudu, look away. I don't think you'll like what Rossi just said about the championship:

“If you make the calculation, 50 points with one race less (is a bigger gap) than 53 points with once race more,” he said after Silverstone.

“But, sincerely, I DON'T CARE. I love to make these races, and my target is to fight for victory and arrive on the podium from here to the end.” Rossi


Holy ...., sounds like Rosie has GIVEN UP ON THE CHAMPIONSHIP, quick make another thread to mock what your boy Valentino just said.


If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

TBH, as far as this season is considered, when the front runners (AD, AI, Crutchlow, MV, JLo) are faster than MM, they were able to make a pass on VR as well. When they are not faster, MM was able to make a pass on VR as well. VR was able to get a 9-10 pointers wrt Marc in only 1 of 12 races. Odds are he won't make it happen for 5 races out of 6. I would say, unless the climate and tyre choice screws up, Lorenzo has better odds of closing 60+ point difference than VR closing 50 point difference.

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I would add into that that in 2013, 2014, 2015 Lorenzo closed the show impressively out scoring Rossi every time during the last half of the season. I do believe he will bridge the gap to Rossi and finish second in the championship. First if Marc manages to .... it up.

michaelm said:

And completely different from saying the 2015 season was rigged against Rossi?

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Clearly, raising doubts about one riders actions in 3 races is very different to attacking the legitimacy of the sport for a decade and a half.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

Clearly, raising doubts about one riders actions in 3 races is very different to attacking the legitimacy of the sport for a decade and a half.

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No, both are conjecture, and those who oppose you at least provide arguments for their viewpoint, valid or not, which you can't seem to do for your conjecture about season 2015.

And from other points of view your perspective on the last 15 years of the sport is 180 degrees skewed, with the narrative mainly being effusive praise of Rossi, often well deserved, but any negativity overwhelmingly directed at any and all significant opponents he has had, and denigration of and detraction from any titles they have won as you exemplify.

This forum is mainly now populated by dissenters from that narrative, who are proudly so, and veterans of years of being a minority opinion in defense of riders such as Hayden and Stoner and the merit of their title wins; many of the previous opposition at least had the grace to be embarrassed in regard to being completely wrong about Stoner's performances at Ducati, ironically proven by Rossi's adventure there. We have been somewhat reactivated by attempts last season to extend the previous denigration and vilification to 2 new and quite likely even better riders. Less than a year ago MM was copping more criticism on here than Rossi.

You also don't seem to realise that that people are not always entirely serious, which presents me with something of a dilemma, as you now appear to actually be a true believer where Rossi is concerned, rather than being deliberately provocative, something to which I enjoy responding. I obviously am prepared to extend to shooting fish in a barrel for sport, but clubbing baby harp seals not so much.

michaelm said:

No, both are conjecture, and those who oppose you at least provide arguments for their viewpoint, valid or not, which you can't seem to do for your conjecture about season 2015.

And from other points of view your perspective on the last 15 years of the sport is 180 degrees skewed, with the narrative mainly being effusive praise of Rossi, often well deserved, but any negativity overwhelmingly directed at any and all significant opponents he has had, and denigration of and detraction from any titles they have won as you exemplify.

This forum is mainly now populated by dissenters from that narrative, who are proudly so, and veterans of years of being a minority opinion in defense of riders such as Hayden and Stoner and the merit of their title wins; many of the previous opposition at least had the grace to be embarrassed in regard to being completely wrong about Stoner's performances at Ducati, ironically proven by Rossi's adventure there. We have been somewhat reactivated by attempts last season to extend the previous denigration and vilification to 2 new and quite likely even better riders. Less than a year ago MM was copping more criticism on here than Rossi.

You also don't seem to realise that that people are not always entirely serious, which presents me with something of a dilemma, as you now appear to actually be a true believer where Rossi is concerned, rather than being deliberately provocative, something to which I enjoy responding. I obviously am prepared to extend to shooting fish in a barrel for sport, but clubbing baby harp seals not so much.

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I posted plenty of arguments regarding the end of 2015, you just don't agree with them so you decide to disregard them every time. Whatever works best for you.

2nd paragraph just reinforces my previous point, you've been traumatised in the last 10 years to debate these things with any sort of reasonable approach.

That's funny, are you seriously suggesting that because these posters talk about the conspiracies in a comedic fashion they don't actually believe in them? That might be the funniest thing you've said so far, don't you by the way believe in like 3 tyre conspiracies as well? I know it's less than most guys here but still not insignificant.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

I posted plenty of arguments regarding the end of 2015, you just don't agree with them so you decide to disregard them every time. Whatever works best for you.

2nd paragraph just reinforces my previous point, you've been traumatised in the last 10 years to debate these things with any sort of reasonable approach.

That's funny, are you seriously suggesting that because these posters talk about the conspiracies in a comedic fashion they don't actually believe in them? That might be the funniest thing you've said so far, don't you by the way believe in like 3 tyre conspiracies as well? I know it's less than most guys here but still not insignificant.

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You've posted plenty of arguments but none with substance or proof

GeniusAtTwerk said:

I posted plenty of arguments regarding the end of 2015, you just don't agree with them so you decide to disregard them every time. Whatever works best for you.

2nd paragraph just reinforces my previous point, you've been traumatised in the last 10 years to debate these things with any sort of reasonable approach.

That's funny, are you seriously suggesting that because these posters talk about the conspiracies in a comedic fashion they don't actually believe in them? That might be the funniest thing you've said so far, don't you by the way believe in like 3 tyre conspiracies as well? I know it's less than most guys here but still not insignificant.

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Again, you believe in a conspiracy/plot by MM at the end of last season for which you provide no evidence. I could refer you to the Monty Python argument sketch but that would give away my age too much, but that is basically where you are on season 2015; simply restating your position providing no evidence other than you believe it to be true is not presenting arguments, it amounts to "oh no it's not" followed by "oh yes it is".

Whether or not there are specific tyre conspiracies in favour of Rossi or against Lorenzo, which there may not be this year, although my own belief is that Dorna are fairly happy with the tyre situation despite the tyres being demonstrably substandard on several occasions, not necessarily this week though. There is also considerable evidence that Dorna have serially manipulated the tyres, in 2012 for instance although that was not Rossi focused imo, and the whole saga that led up to the control tyre with Rossi ending up with the tyre he wanted in an unprecedented fashion the first time it looked as though someone else might have better tyres, and under that control Bridgestone tyre regime the tyres became progressively unsuited to the previous Bridgestone runners, which Ducati, Suzuki and Kawasaki have said as a matter of record. The way Michelin provided tyres in most of their previous incarnation was also manifestly inequitable, which was a long term thing which preceded Rossi however.

You ignore all this I would guess because you can't answer it, continuing to cry "conspiracy theory" in lieu of rebutting arguments, but can't provide any evidence for your contention that MM manipulated the result of a race he actually won, beating Jorge Lorenzo, in Jorge Lorenzo's favour other than that you know it to be true or that Valentino says so.

If I am to return your indulgence in character assessment/cod psychology via internet I think you are a true believer in the Rossi cause and not malicious, but totally unfamiliar with the principles of logical debate.

p4p1 said:

You've posted plenty of arguments but none with substance or proof

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Same as you guys in terms of any conclusive evidence, the difference is that I don't attack the character of the opposing rider, or use expert mental gymnastics to twist every situation to suit you in every post like most of you here. The groupthink is pretty incredible in this forum, see the race thread for an example.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

Same as you guys in terms of any conclusive evidence, the difference is that I don't attack the character of the opposing rider, or use expert mental gymnastics to twist every situation to suit you in every post like most of you here. The groupthink is pretty incredible in this forum, see the race thread for an example.

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No, you do exactly that, having at my most recent count said 4 or 5 non-Rossi titles were not won by the best rider, and being a lone or one of a few dissenting voices may be brave or even admirable but doesn't make you correct, as I have said to others of your ilk. If being in a minority made one corrrect then you are wrong and we are correct, since opinion in the wider world overwhelmingly favours your boy.

I don't go as far as some of my friends on here in claiming pro-Rossi tyre conspiracies, but there is ample evidence of Dorna screwing round with the tyres for the last 10 years or more, for whatever reason; if someone wishes to attribute it to sheer incompetence fine, but to attribute any criticism of inequities or other problems with tyres automatically to the critics being "conspiracy theorists" is silly, lazy and evidence you can't make any case for your own viewpoint yourself, particularly since you simultaneously propound your own conspiracy theory, for which you are still to provide the evidence you claim exists, as proven fact.

The Misano race bore quite a resemblance to PI 2015 to me, with the exception that Marquez in the Iannone role was not as fast or didn't try as hard, and Dani got to the lead a little earlier. Are any of your opponents on here, most of whom favour MM or Lorenzo suggesting Dani shouldn't have gone for the win as a non-contender, had suspect tactics because he didn't lead the whole way despite being the fastest rider ultimately, deliberately relegated Lorenzo and Marquez to third and fourth to help Rossi, etc etc? No, he has received universal praise for riding a great race, including from Lorenzo, which is the difference between fans of the sport of GP bike racing who understand the sport, and many among Rossi fandom.

he cares about Ducati's race results actually.

more rhan a rumor said fist thing he asked for at parc férmé was the gap between first duc and pedrosa.

not to blame, tbh.

PS hi, new here

Rossi is #1 in the rest of the world.


http://www.etinside.com/?p=11679





If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

michaelm said:

No, you do exactly that, having at my most recent count said 4 or 5 non-Rossi titles were not won by the best rider, and being a lone or one of a few dissenting voices may be brave or even admirable but doesn't make you correct, as I have said to others of your ilk. If being in a minority made one corrrect then you are wrong and we are correct, since opinion in the wider world overwhelmingly favours your boy.

I don't go as far as some of my friends on here in claiming pro-Rossi tyre conspiracies, but there is ample evidence of Dorna screwing round with the tyres for the last 10 years or more, for whatever reason; if someone wishes to attribute it to sheer incompetence fine, but to attribute any criticism of inequities or other problems with tyres automatically to the critics being "conspiracy theorists" is silly, lazy and evidence you can't make any case for your own viewpoint yourself, particularly since you simultaneously propound your own conspiracy theory, for which you are still to provide the evidence you claim exists, as proven fact.

The Misano race bore quite a resemblance to PI 2015 to me, with the exception that Marquez in the Iannone role was not as fast or didn't try as hard, and Dani got to the lead a little earlier. Are any of your opponents on here, most of whom favour MM or Lorenzo suggesting Dani shouldn't have gone for the win as a non-contender, had suspect tactics because he didn't lead the whole way despite being the fastest rider ultimately, deliberately relegated Lorenzo and Marquez to third and fourth to help Rossi, etc etc? No, he has received universal praise for riding a great race, including from Lorenzo, which is the difference between fans of the sport of GP bike racing who understand the sport, and many among Rossi fandom.

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Not 4 or 5, 2. Not hard to get that right. Or 3 if you for some reason include 2013 as if that had anything to do with Rossi. And I'm not unwilling to consider he might not have been the best rider in every title season.

I don't care about how the rest of the world sees these situations when discussing the mentality of this forum, or how many fans a rider has when the answer to that is obvious. That you do so much to bring it up in every instance shows me more and more just how much you've been traumatised by what you felt to be unjust treatment of Stoner in the past, making you unable to separate yourself from the topic enough whenever Rossi is included. As with many members in this forum I assume.

You could make a case Misano was similar if you were unwilling to use any context, sure. What with the pace difference that made Rossi the 2nd fastest instead of 4th like Lorenzo last year, and Dani not "having" to fight with Marquez and Lorenzo for extended periods of time, and with the quotes given earlier in the year and this version of Sepang and Valencia yet to happen. Not surprised it bore a resemblance to you though, you find it impossible to evaluate rider performance outside of championship standings after all.

Edit: so you agree all the tyre conspiracies are pure conjecture? If so, from this point I'll just disregard them anytime you or someone else brings them up, thanks.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

Not 4 or 5, 2. Not hard to get that right. Or 3 if you for some reason include 2013 as if that had anything to do with Rossi. And I'm not unwilling to consider he might not have been the best rider in every title season.

I don't care about how the rest of the world sees these situations when discussing the mentality of this forum, or how many fans a rider has when the answer to that is obvious. That you do so much to bring it up in every instance shows me more and more just how much you've been traumatised by what you felt to be unjust treatment of Stoner in the past, making you unable to separate yourself from the topic enough whenever Rossi is included. As with many members in this forum I assume.

You could make a case Misano was similar if you were unwilling to use any context, sure. What with the pace difference that made Rossi the 2nd fastest instead of 4th like Lorenzo last year, and Dani not "having" to fight with Marquez and Lorenzo for extended periods of time, and with the quotes given earlier in the year and this version of Sepang and Valencia yet to happen. Not surprised it bore a resemblance to you though, you find it impossible to evaluate rider performance outside of championship standings after all.

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I wasn't referring just to years you thought Rossi was the better rider, but also to MM and JL in 2012 when despite going for JL myself I thought MM deserved to win, Hayden in 2006 and Rossi/JL 2015 makes 3, you made fairly strong implications about JL's 2010 title being down to Rossi's injuries which makes 4, and were fairly lukewarm about Stoner's 2007 title; despite past prejudices from previous encounters with those of your ilk when it didn't take much digging to uncover a narrative about Stoner's massive equipment advantage that year I gave you some benefit of the doubt, hence 4 or 5. I was considered to have exceptional mathematical ability in my youth, and did rather well in the psychology subject and psychiatry at university at well, and am not actually in great need of either tutoring in arithmetic or amateur psychoanalysis from you, btw.

You fairly obviously came on here to show up we sacrilegious Rossi haters, and must surely expect counter-arguments. I don't have any personal animus against you, but I disagree quite strongly with much of what you say particularly concerning late season 2015 and see it as representative of wider attitudes which have quite a deal of imo false currency, and while you keep propounding such views, particularly with very little in the way of anything to support the opinions which you seem to assume have the status of fact, you are absolutely correct I will continue to strongly disagree with you.

I have had specific discussions at some length on here with a long term very well informed Italian poster whom I quite respect and who is a big Rossi fan to the effect that I do now blame Rossi as well as his crazy fans for Stoner's persecution during his career, having blamed those fans alone previously, so it is hardly a blinding revelation to suggest to me that my attitudes were partly formed by being a Stoner fan in any case. Hence my dislike of the same process being applied to Marquez and Lorenzo, oddly.

If Rossi had been fast enough when it mattered he wouldn't have finished 4th at PI 2015, wouldn't have been behind in the first place, and lap times early in the race when behind are of doubtful relevance to the end of the race in any case. You have pretty much conceded (you didn't have much choice) that MM was faster than Rossi and that Iannone beat him in a straight fight at the end of the PI 2015 race, so all this controversy basically concerns whether he could have finished 3rd ahead of and relegated Lorenzo to 4th in hypothetical circumstances, when neither you or Rossi, nor anybody else for that matter, can know whether he had the pace to get to Lorenzo and how Lorenzo might have responded if challenged by Rossi anyway. So the entire matter, and possible permanent the reputations of 2 great riders, discrediting of a title won by one of those riders, and widespread vilification of the riders concerned by those of your ilk since including cheering of crashes and booing of them on the podium relies entirely on supposition.
(EDIT While I think there is strong evidence that Dorna have manipulated the tyres for unclear and not necessarily pure motives, and that I have strong objecctions to the control tyre rule both in principle and past and continuing implementation of that rule, I do think a specific pro-Rossi tyre conspiracy is conjecture. Those who so conjecture do give reasons for their conjecture, while you while being scornful of their "conspiracy theory" propound yours and Rossi's absurd conspiracy theory/plot concerning late season 2015 as fact with no evidence, and with this yes I do take issue. If you wish to concede you and they are both in the business of conjecture, I would have less problem with you but you would still need to provide some evidence for your conjecture which you continue to fail to do.)

michaelm said:

I wasn't referring just to years you thought Rossi was the better rider, but also to MM and JL in 2012 when despite going for JL myself I thought MM deserved to win, Hayden in 2006 and Rossi/JL 2015 makes 3, you made fairly strong implications about JL's 2010 title being down to Rossi's injuries which makes 4, and were fairly lukewarm about Stoner's 2007 title; despite past prejudices from previous encounters with those of your ilk when it didn't take much digging to uncover a narrative about Stoner's massive equipment advantage that year I gave you some benefit of the doubt, hence 4 or 5. I was considered to have exceptional mathematical ability in my youth, and did rather well in the psychology subject and psychiatry at university at well, and am not actually in great need of either tutoring in arithmetic or amateur psychoanalysis from you, btw.

You fairly obviously came on here to show up we sacrilegious Rossi haters, and must surely expect counter-arguments. I don't have any personal animus against you, but I disagree quite strongly with much of what you say particularly concerning late season 2015 and see it as representative of wider attitudes which have quite a deal of imo false currency, and while you keep propounding such views, particularly with very little in the way of anything to support the opinions which you seem to assume have the status of fact, you are absolutely correct I will continue to strongly disagree with you.

I have had specific discussions at some length on here with a long term very well informed Italian poster whom I quite respect and who is a big Rossi fan to the effect that I do now blame Rossi as well as his crazy fans for Stoner's persecution during his career, having blamed those fans alone previously, so it is hardly a blinding revelation to suggest to me that my attitudes were partly formed by being a Stoner fan in any case. Hence my dislike of the same process being applied to Marquez and Lorenzo, oddly.

If Rossi had been fast enough when it mattered he wouldn't have finished 4th at PI 2015, wouldn't have been behind in the first place, and lap times early in the race are of doubtful relevance to the end of the race in any case. You have pretty much conceded (you didn't have much choice) that MM was faster than Rossi and that Iannone beat him in a straight fight at the end of the PI 2015 race, so all this controversy basically concerns whether he could have finished 3rd ahead of and relegated Lorenzo to 4th in hypothetical circumstances, when neither you or Rossi, nor anybody else for that matter, can know whether he had the pace to get to Lorenzo and how Lorenzo might have responded if challenged by Rossi anyway. So the entire matter, and possible permanent the reputations of 2 great riders, discrediting of a title won by one of those riders, and widespread vilification of the riders concerned by those of your ilk since including cheering of crashes and booing of them on the podium relies entirely on supposition.

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:lol: I never said anything that implied Lorenzo wasn't best in 2010 or Stoner in 2007, so that's another mark to the theory about your traumatisation. Or just continued poor reading comprehension.

Good of you to admit your situation, makes it much easier for us to move one. For what it's worth you're definitely not the most extreme case in this forum, that or you're an expert in hiding it. I personally feel it's a bit weak to have your opinion of an athlete to negatively change so drastically because of a fan of his/her. I feel like sports more than most other topics creates more passion, which of course leads to quite extreme results in terms of fandom especially online, so being influenced by this is not preferable IMO.

You fail to realize that even with Rossi only 3rd that's still a 10 point swing, making the gap 21 points going to Sepang, an absolutely massive difference. And IMO Rossi seemed to have slightly better pace than Iannone, which would've presented itself in clear air, but that is secondary.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

:lol: I never said anything that implied Lorenzo wasn't best in 2010 or Stoner in 2007, so that's another mark to the theory about your traumatisation. Or just continued poor reading comprehension.

Good of you to admit your situation, makes it much easier for us to move one. For what it's worth you're definitely not the most extreme case in this forum, that or you're an expert in hiding it. I personally feel it's a bit weak to have your opinion of an athlete to negatively change so drastically because of a fan of his/her. I feel like sports more than most other topics creates more passion, which of course leads to quite extreme results in terms of fandom especially online, so being influenced by this is not preferable IMO.

You fail to realize that even with Rossi only 3rd that's still a 10 point swing, making the gap 21 points going to Sepang, an absolutely massive difference. And IMO Rossi seemed to have slightly better pace than Iannone, which would've presented itself in clear air, but that is secondary.

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You seem to be the one with comprehension problems. Mine were in the past, when I didn't realise that Rossi was fully complicit in the campaigns of vilification against his rivals, which his orchestration of the media and his fans in campaigns against MM and JL last year, and him specifically calling them off Iannone, made very clear, as have his actions since including comments last week-end.

More supposition about Rossi's pace "if". Why did he not get and stay in front of Lorenzo in the first place if he needed "free air". Why do these 10 points which it is the purest of conjecture he could have gained count more than all the points he lost in actual reality through not being able to beat Pedrosa in 4 of the last 5 races, and not being able to beat Iannone with whom he was one on one in the last lap at PI? Why was it bad tactics for MM to drop Iannone at an appropriate time and place if his straight line performance was such a threat?

What all this amounts to is that you have no argument, except your faith in Valentino and the moral and intellectual superiority this apparently confers on you in comparison with the likes of me and other "haters", and apparently also turns the well recognised logical fallacy of argumentum ad hominem into a legitimate form of argument, hence all you need post is "Rossi hater" and "conspiracy theory".

You did argue at length about Rossi having led the 2010 championship (after winning the first race) until a motocross accident in which he injured his shoulder, which apparently then led to his other injury. I don't recall you saying Lorenzo would have won anyway.