Lorenzo - I don't care about MotoGP championship

povol said:

And Dani was leading the championship and had a 7 second lead in the last race going into summer break on a wet track, when that ....... halfwit Puig gave him a sign saying he was 2-3 seconds up and to push. Of course he crashed, injuring himself and handed the championship to Rossi. Dani was on a tear in 2008, had he not listened to his ....... manager and won the German Grand Prix, it would have given him close to 200 points in the first half and he would surely have won the title. See how easy that is, Rossi was not always the best rider when he won a title

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Well yeah, because of Rossi's silly crash at Assen Dani had been better than him up to Sachsenring probably. You're missing my logic though, the crash that injured him wasn't outside of his control so that doesn't come into the equation, therefore he can't be argued for the best rider that season. OTOH Stoner could be, depending on how you see the respective packages the riders had. IMO had he not crashed out at Brno and Misano (even had he settled for 2nd), there was a decent case for him over Rossi.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

Well yeah, because of Rossi's silly crash at Assen Dani had been better than him up to Sachsenring probably. You're missing my logic though, the crash that injured him wasn't outside of his control so that doesn't come into the equation, therefore he can't be argued for the best rider that season. OTOH Stoner could be, depending on how you see the respective packages the riders had. IMO had he not crashed out at Brno and Misano (even had he settled for 2nd), there was a decent case for him over Rossi.

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There is always the possibility there was no logic for him to miss.

What is wrong with crediting whichever rider wins the world championship? I understand they hold the championship to ascertain the identity of the championship winning rider.

You can't be this dense, can you? Or are you just being a contrarian to all my posts on purpose?

GeniusAtTwerk said:

You can't be this dense, can you? Or are you just being a contrarian to all my posts on purpose?

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Tweaking trues.

I don't think he can win it, he struggle with the tyres too much. When he goes to Ducati next year things are only going to be tougher for him. Just my two cents.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

You can't be this dense, can you? Or are you just being a contrarian to all my posts on purpose?

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You haven't considered the possibility you are the one with the comprehension problem?.

I quite genuinely think that most of what you "argue" (the more accurate terminology would be declaim) is incorrect, and moreover reflects a mindset which I dislike and which has been damaging to the careers and reputations of several excellent riders whom I admire, specifically Jorge Lorenzo and Marc Marquez currently, and which is hence something which I oppose when I encounter it. If the concept of you being incorrect is an entirely foreign one, as seems to be the case, I guess in your strange universe many posts by others are "dense".

If we are to be candid as seems to be your choice, I have actually been wondering whether you are someone who is doing a send-up/is engaged in satire by being a caricature of an over-the-top Rossi fan to elicit a reaction, as from my point of view it seemed unlikely someone with the at least basic literacy you obviously possess could be as dense as you yourself otherwise appear to be to me.

michaelm said:

You haven't considered the possibility you are the one with the comprehension problem?.

I quite genuinely think that most of what you "argue" (the more accurate terminology would be declaim) is incorrect, and moreover reflects a mindset which I dislike and which has been damaging to the careers and reputations of several excellent riders whom I admire, specifically Jorge Lorenzo and Marc Marquez currently, and which is hence something which I oppose when I encounter it. If the concept of you being incorrect is an entirely foreign one, as seems to be the case, I guess in your strange universe many posts by others are "dense".

If we are to be candid as seems to be your choice, I have actually been wondering whether you are someone who is doing a send-up/is engaged in satire by being a caricature of an over-the-top Rossi fan to elicit a reaction, as from my point of view it seemed unlikely someone with the at least basic literacy you obviously possess could be as dense as you yourself otherwise appear to be to me.

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Okay, let's recap. I make 2 posts, one about correcting which is in my opinion a misplaced view of the mgmatters forum in terms of bias, recollecting my experiences there for the last 7 years and especially the defining year of 2015 and presenting my theory why that forum could seem pro-Rossi for anyone here.

You then quote that without addressing any of the points of that post, rather resorting to a personal insult. I don't even know if you've ever been a member of that forum, or whether you disagree or agree with my analysis, or if you just oppose the fact of me posting that analysis.

Then I again respond to a post that used my logic to evaluate yearly rider performances to try to state Dani could or could've been the best rider of 2008, to which I replied that by MY logic Sachsenring was not outside of his control, so in the end the discussion would rather be about Rossi and Stoner for that year.

To this you respond "it is possible there was no logic for him to miss" Are you serious? We literally just had a back-and-forth about the rider performances of 2008 using MY logic, which I clarified my position to that poster.

Then you said for the 17th time (as you do with a lot of things) crediting the champion blah blah, when I've always said I give credit to the champions, as well, champions, with the exception of possible cheating.

What is wrong with you? As a test, I challenge you to point-by-point respond to this post to see if you are able to present your arguments either to the previous 2 posts I made before, or this one. If you come back with just

"If we are to be candid as seems to be your choice, I have actually been wondering whether you are someone who is doing a send-up/is engaged in satire by being a caricature of an over-the-top Rossi fan to elicit a reaction, as from my point of view it seemed unlikely someone with the at least basic literacy you obviously possess could be as dense as you yourself otherwise appear to be to me."

or

"If you ever give up being a Rossi fan, I can see a future for you as a door-knocking evangelist.

Posters being quite neutral, even about Lorenzo? The very idea of that."

or

"You are encountering a community interested in the sport, most of whom have followed GP bike racing way before the cult of personality which currently pervades it. If people actually being informed about the sport offends you, tough. No-one is forcing you to post."

or

"You seem to be the one with comprehension problems."

I know you are truly a lost hope.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

Okay, let's recap. I make 2 posts, one about correcting which is in my opinion a misplaced view of the mgmatters forum in terms of bias, recollecting my experiences there for the last 7 years and especially the defining year of 2015 and presenting my theory why that forum could seem pro-Rossi for anyone here.

You then quote that without addressing any of the points of that post, rather resorting to a personal insult. I don't even know if you've ever been a member of that forum, or whether you disagree or agree with my analysis, or if you just oppose the fact of me posting that analysis.

Then I again respond to a post that used my logic to evaluate yearly rider performances to try to state Dani could or could've been the best rider of 2008, to which I replied that by MY logic Sachsenring was not outside of his control, so in the end the discussion would rather be about Rossi and Stoner for that year.

To this you respond "it is possible there was no logic for him to miss" Are you serious? We literally just had a back-and-forth about the rider performances of 2008 using MY logic, which I clarified my position to that poster.

Then you said for the 17th time (as you do with a lot of things) crediting the champion blah blah, when I've always said I give credit to the champions, as well, champions, with the exception of possible cheating.

What is wrong with you? As a test, I challenge you to point-by-point respond to this post to see if you are able to present your arguments either to the previous 2 posts I made before, or this one. If you come back with just

"If we are to be candid as seems to be your choice, I have actually been wondering whether you are someone who is doing a send-up/is engaged in satire by being a caricature of an over-the-top Rossi fan to elicit a reaction, as from my point of view it seemed unlikely someone with the at least basic literacy you obviously possess could be as dense as you yourself otherwise appear to be to me."

or

"If you ever give up being a Rossi fan, I can see a future for you as a door-knocking evangelist.

Posters being quite neutral, even about Lorenzo? The very idea of that."

or

"You are encountering a community interested in the sport, most of whom have followed GP bike racing way before the cult of personality which currently pervades it. If people actually being informed about the sport offends you, tough. No-one is forcing you to post."

or

"You seem to be the one with comprehension problems."

I know you are truly a lost hope.

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I will confess, you have actually got me on the false assumption thing again.

I had assumed your nom de plume, "Geniusatwerk" (or some such), was tongue in cheek, since any other assumption would involve you being completely stupid, and I am an inherently generous man who prefers to give people the benefit of the doubt.

I can see now my initial assumption was completely mistaken, and thank you for pointing out my error to me.

I have repeatedly responded to you point by point, which you are unable to answer other than by saying you know yourself to be correct. More specifically, from the get go you have been unable to answer my contentions that at least 3 things you maintain regarding PI 2015 are inherently ludicrous, ie firstly that the tactics of a rider who actually legally won a race can be considered at all questionable, secondly that a rider who won a race can somehow order the finishing positions behind him, and thirdly that a rider in MM raced illegitimately in that race in an attempt to help Jorge Lorenzo's title hopes despite actually beating Jorge in winning the race, depriving him of 5 points. Saying it 17 times might not make it any more true than the first time I said it, but you being unable to refute the argument for the 17th time other than by saying you have heard it before is rather more telling I would have thought.

michaelm said:

I will confess, you have actually got me on the false assumption thing again.

I had assumed your nom de plume, "Geniusatwerk" (or some such), was tongue in cheek, since any other assumption would involve you being completely stupid, and I am an inherently generous man who prefers to give people the benefit of the doubt.

I can see now my initial assumption was completely mistaken, and thank you for pointing out my error to me.

I have repeatedly responded to you point by point, which you are unable to answer other than by saying you know yourself to be correct. More specifically, from the get go you have been unable to answer my contentions that at least 3 things you maintain regarding PI 2015 are inherently ludicrous, ie firstly that the tactics of a rider who actually legally won a race can be considered at all questionable, secondly that a rider who won a race can somehow order the finishing positions behind him, and thirdly that a rider in MM raced illegitimately in that race in an attempt to help Jorge Lorenzo's title hopes despite actually beating Jorge in winning the race, depriving him of 5 points. Saying it 17 times might not make it any more true than the first time I said it, but you being unable to refute the argument for the 17th time other than by saying you have heard it before is rather more telling I would have thought.

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:lol: You really can't stop yourself, can you? Why am I not surprised. Truly astonishing.

I have responded to all 3 points, probably multiple times because of your repetitive tendencies. The problem is that I can't make you read the posts and register what I'm saying, instead of ignoring it.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

:lol: You really can't stop yourself, can you? Why am I not surprised. Truly astonishing.

I have responded to all 3 points, probably multiple times because of your repetitive tendencies. The problem is that I can't make you read the posts and register what I'm saying, instead of ignoring it.

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You haven't replied and can't reply to those points at all, and once again prove this.

You are actually the one who has employed argumentum ad hominem from the get go, as you are again in this post, who condescends (amazingly) to other posters on the basis of your supposed superior intellect, sneers at them as conspiracy theorists, and tries to make pettifogging counterpoints to minor points in the posts of others as though this somehow proves you correct overall.

Again, you are in no position to accuse anyone of being a conspiracy theorist, particularly in the superior fashion which you employ, or call anyone an ....., because you subscribe to Valentino's idiotic conspiracy theory concerning the end of last season, which you cannot justify.

Amusingly in your last post but one you asked me to reply point by point to a new standard you have now adopted in regard to whether world champions deserve to be world champions, a standard which is pretty much what I argued myself in a previous discussion with you after your contention that it was not uncommon for the winner of the world riders' championship not to be the best rider of the year.

As it happens I have followed David Emmett's blog and the attached comments section for the same time I have posted on here, the best part of 10 years, and have had discussions with him on here where he posts with varying frequency; when he does so he tends to be more candid than he is on his own site, and among the things he has discussed are his editorial policy on his own site. I am firmly of the belief that he tries to be fair, and to stop slanging matches consuming his blog whether they originate from Rossi fans or others. If it appears to you that he is harder on Rossi fans a number of possibilities exist apart from him being biased, among them being that there are more Rossi fans, that Rossi fans are more prone to instigating slanging matches (not necessarily my opinion btw), and (quelle horreur) that you are biased yourself. He says himself that he takes having been accused of being incredibly biased both in favour of and against Rossi, and the same in regard to Stoner back in the day as well as MM and Lorenzo more recently, as a sign that he is perhaps managing some sort of middle path.

I can make no comment in regard to the separate Motomatters forum, other than that on the few occasions I have tried to have a look at it the soporific effect was marked.

You on the other hand with your superior intellect are obviously and naturally immediately able to have a completely nuanced view of this forum and everyone who posts on here, as you proved with regard to BarryMachine.

michaelm said:

Amusingly in your last post but one you asked me to reply point by point to a new standard you have now adopted in regard to whether world champions deserve to be world champions, a standard which is pretty much what I argued myself in a previous discussion with you after your contention that it was not uncommon for the winner of the world riders' championship not to be the best rider of the year.

As it happens I have followed David Emmett's blog and the attached comments section for the same time I have posted on here, the best part of 10 years, and have had discussions with him on here where he posts with varying frequency; when he does so he tends to be more candid than he is on his own site, and among the things he has discussed are his editorial policy on his own site. I am firmly of the belief that he tries to be fair, and to stop slanging matches consuming his blog whether they originate from Rossi fans or others. If it appears to you that he is harder on Rossi fans a number of possibilities exist apart from him being biased, among them being that there are more Rossi fans, that Rossi fans are more prone to instigating slanging matches (not necessarily my opinion btw), and (quelle horreur) that you are biased yourself. He says himself that he takes having been accused of being incredibly biased both in favour of and against Rossi, and the same in regard to Stoner back in the day as well as MM and Lorenzo more recently, as a sign that he is perhaps managing some sort of middle path.

I can make no comment in regard to the separate Motomatters forum, other than that on the few occasions I have tried to have a look at it the soporific effect was marked.

You on the other hand with your superior intellect are obviously and naturally immediately able to have a completely nuanced view of this forum and everyone who posts on here, as you proved with regard to BarryMachine.

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I Cut out the pointless drivel again.

I never tried to establish new standards on whether the champion is a deserving one, it's incredible you still can't make the distinction between the two. Saying someone else performed at a higher level overall during the year doesn't mean you didn't deserve to win the title, because this is motorsports.

Regarding Krop, I do think he tries to be fair towards every camp for sure, that doesn't rule out the possibility of him having inherent bias some way, though. It is possible he isn't anti-Rossi but rather completely neutral, although I maintain that his behaviour last year especially in the forum proves this somewhat, but I was rather responding to posters who stated he is extremely pro-Rossi, which definitely is not true especially when it comes to 2015.

"He says himself that he takes having been accused of being incredibly biased both in favour of and against Rossi, and the same in regard to Stoner back in the day as well as MM and Lorenzo more recently, as a sign that he is perhaps managing some sort of middle path."

I've heard this many times, I personally take it as an easy deflection whenever questioned, but I can't blame him for this if it is so.

I'm glad to hear you attacking me didn't come from absolutely nothing, and that you have at least a bit of experience of the site.

I used BM's quote as an example and "traumatised" was used as somewhat of an exaggeration, which I thought would be pretty clear to see.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

I Cut out the pointless drivel again.

I never tried to establish new standards on whether the champion is a deserving one, it's incredible you still can't make the distinction between the two. Saying someone else performed at a higher level overall during the year doesn't mean you didn't deserve to win the title, because this is motorsports.

Regarding Krop, I do think he tries to be fair towards every camp for sure, that doesn't rule out the possibility of him having inherent bias some way, though. It is possible he isn't anti-Rossi but rather completely neutral, although I maintain that his behaviour last year especially in the forum proves this somewhat, but I was rather responding to posters who stated he is extremely pro-Rossi, which definitely is not true especially when it comes to 2015.

"He says himself that he takes having been accused of being incredibly biased both in favour of and against Rossi, and the same in regard to Stoner back in the day as well as MM and Lorenzo more recently, as a sign that he is perhaps managing some sort of middle path."

I've heard this many times, I personally take it as an easy deflection whenever questioned, but I can't blame him for this if it is so.

I'm glad to hear you attacking me didn't come from absolutely nothing, and that you have at least a bit of experience of the site.

I used BM's quote as an example and "traumatised" was used as somewhat of an exaggeration, which I thought would be pretty clear to see.

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Posting that someone has posted "pointless drivel" is not a rebuttal, but rather an admission of defeat. if a non championship winner had ridden better than the champion they would have been the champion.

As I said, you assumed you had the measure of all on this forum as your post in regard to Barry of all people indicated, while simultaneously assuming ignorance of your previous forum here. The latter is understandable/defensible, the former is not.

if you are going to be arrogant immediately on entering on a new forum, you can hardly be surprised about being called to account.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

I Cut out the pointless drivel again.



I never tried to establish new standards on whether the champion is a deserving one, it's incredible you still can't make the distinction between the two. Saying someone else performed at a higher level overall during the year doesn't mean you didn't deserve to win the title, because this is motorsports.



Regarding Krop, I do think he tries to be fair towards every camp for sure, that doesn't rule out the possibility of him having inherent bias some way, though. It is possible he isn't anti-Rossi but rather completely neutral, although I maintain that his behaviour last year especially in the forum proves this somewhat, but I was rather responding to posters who stated he is extremely pro-Rossi, which definitely is not true especially when it comes to 2015.



"He says himself that he takes having been accused of being incredibly biased both in favour of and against Rossi, and the same in regard to Stoner back in the day as well as MM and Lorenzo more recently, as a sign that he is perhaps managing some sort of middle path."



I've heard this many times, I personally take it as an easy deflection whenever questioned, but I can't blame him for this if it is so.



I'm glad to hear you attacking me didn't come from absolutely nothing, and that you have at least a bit of experience of the site.



I used BM's quote as an example and "traumatised" was used as somewhat of an exaggeration, which I thought would be pretty clear to see.

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Whether you think it's pointless drivel or not buddy, anyone has the right to post their opinion. This is a MotoGP fans forum, not an online intellectuals refuge.

yamfan said:

Whether you think it's pointless drivel or not buddy, anyone has the right to post their opinion. This is a MotoGP fans forum, not an online intellectuals refuge.

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I didn't mean he doesn't have a right to post that, I left that out bc that part of the post had nothing to respond to.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

I didn't mean he doesn't have a right to post that, I left that out bc that part of the post had nothing to respond to.

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Again, you have nothing and have never had anything apart from argumentum ad hominem.

I think Jorge has given up because I'm sure the atmos in the garage is pretty crap. Jarvis only smiles when Rossi is winning and if Jorge does do well the celebrations are deliberately subdued and muted.

I'm sure the one sided Yamaha sycophancy to Rossi became too much for Jorge, which is why he looked towards other rides. Once he'd signed the dotted line, I'm sure Jarvis thanked Lorenzo that he wouldn't need to hide anymore his contempt for Jorge and his infatuation with Rossi.

payne by name said:

I think Jorge has given up because I'm sure the atmos in the garage is pretty crap. Jarvis only smiles when Rossi is winning and if Jorge does do well the celebrations are deliberately subdued and muted.

I'm sure the one sided Yamaha sycophancy to Rossi became too much for Jorge, which is why he looked towards other rides. Once he'd signed the dotted line, I'm sure Jarvis thanked Lorenzo that he wouldn't need to hide anymore his contempt for Jorge and his infatuation with Rossi.

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You noticed that also. I bet Jarvis was incensed that Jorge took 2nd from Rossi, ending his championship aspirations.

povol said:

You noticed that also. I bet Jarvis was incensed that Jorge took 2nd from Rossi, ending his championship aspirations.

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All speculation, but given the outward appearance of the situation and much of the evidence - quite possibly true.

Certainly Jarvis and Rossi are close friends off circuit. I was reading a piece last week in which he mentioned visiting and riding the ranch on multiple occasions. Although he attempts to maintain an impassive and almost insouciant front, there are increasingly occasions in which his body language betrays which side of the garage his preferences lie.

Arrabbiata1 said:

All speculation, but given the outward appearance of the situation and much of the evidence - quite possibly true.

Certainly Jarvis and Rossi are close friends off circuit. I was reading a piece last week in which he mentioned visiting and riding the ranch on multiple occasions. Although he attempts to maintain an impassive and almost insouciant front, there are increasingly occasions in which his body language betrays which side of the garage his preferences lie.

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I've noticed this year he tends to be more emotionally demonstrative when it comes to Rossi. Well it may have been there last year as well, but I hadn't quite paid attention to it. He seems impassive when it comes to anything Lorenzo does. Periodically you will see a grin come across his face when he sees something he likes from Rossi. I haven't noticed it much if ever with Lorenzo. Of course the TV feed tends to show more in the way of reactions of those on Rossi's side of the garage. Lorenzo has been playing second fiddle since 2014 in that garage. It's a pity since you have a rider who has delivered 3 world championships in 6 years, and the other has delivered none. Yet the one who has delivered none is treated the way you might expect the one delivering to be.