Lorenzo - I don't care about MotoGP championship

Bern1 · Oct 4, 2016

Again, they don't care, but it will be a cold day in hell when I buy a Yamaha.

Jorge Lorenzo deserves to have a garage that has his back.

Will it be Ducati?

I always wanted a 916........

Gaz · Oct 4, 2016

JPSLotus said:
I've noticed this year he tends to be more emotionally demonstrative when it comes to Rossi.

From what I recall of last year it was much the same with the disappointment etched on the face post Sepang and through Valencia.

That said (and was said at the time) the shame is that Jarvis was once a very strong character and leader but I do wonder if much of the 'subservience' that he seems to have shown is forced on him from above within the organisation as afterall money rules and only one of the two riders in 2015/2016 are really able to pull huge dollars to the organisation.

The interesting aspect will be to see if things change in 2017 with Vinales appearing as there is little doubt in my mind that we are not seeing all that is going on behind the scenes

yamfan · Oct 4, 2016

Gaz said:
From what I recall of last year it was much the same with the disappointment etched on the face post Sepang and through Valencia.

That said (and was said at the time) the shame is that Jarvis was once a very strong character and leader but I do wonder if much of the 'subservience' that he seems to have shown is forced on him from above within the organisation as afterall money rules and only one of the two riders in 2015/2016 are really able to pull huge dollars to the organisation.

The interesting aspect will be to see if things change in 2017 with Vinales appearing as there is little doubt in my mind that we are not seeing all that is going on behind the scenes

In an interview in last week's mcn, Jarvis tells how he's been to the ranch and now it a ritual for "the team" to visit it every year before the Misano race.
He also explains it's a massively low grip level circuit at the ranch, and such a magical place!
I bet Lorenzo doesn't get an invite to this magical place on earth, ffs King Kenny was doing this decades ago. LOL
The low grip level surface is interesting though, perfect training for riding on rock hard low grip motogp Michelins, don't you think?

Richy56 · Oct 4, 2016

yamfan said:
In an interview in last week's mcn, Jarvis tells how he's been to the ranch and now it a ritual for "the team" to visit it every year before the Misano race.
He also explains it's a massively low grip level circuit at the ranch, and such a magical place!
I bet Lorenzo doesn't get an invite to this magical place on earth, ffs King Kenny was doing this decades ago. LOL
The low grip level surface is interesting though, perfect training for riding on rock hard low grip motogp Michelins, don't you think?

Last I saw, Michelin were the official tyre supplier to "the ranch" whilst Jarvis and carmelo manned the bbq.

yamfan · Oct 5, 2016

Richy56 said:
Last I saw, Michelin were the official tyre supplier to "the ranch" whilst Jarvis and carmelo manned the bbq.

I guess all we have to do is await the renaming ceremony for MotoGP then, or at very least a new logo featuring swathes of putrid yellow LOL

Arrabbiata1 · Oct 5, 2016

JPSLotus said:
I've noticed this year he tends to be more emotionally demonstrative when it comes to Rossi. Well it may have been there last year as well, but I hadn't quite paid attention to it. He seems impassive when it comes to anything Lorenzo does. Periodically you will see a grin come across his face when he sees something he likes from Rossi. I haven't noticed it much if ever with Lorenzo. Of course the TV feed tends to show more in the way of reactions of those on Rossi's side of the garage. Lorenzo has been playing second fiddle since 2014 in that garage. It's a pity since you have a rider who has delivered 3 world championships in 6 years, and the other has delivered none. Yet the one who has delivered none is treated the way you might expect the one delivering to be.

Perhaps DORNA pipe the canned cheering into the Yamaha garage every time Rossi makes a pass and not just over the TV feed.

JKant · Oct 5, 2016

JPSLotus said:
I've noticed this year he tends to be more emotionally demonstrative when it comes to Rossi.

Could be. Then again, Lorenzo's moving on while Rossi will be with his team at least to 2018, so...

Lorenzo has been playing second fiddle since 2014 in that garage. It's a pity since you have a rider who has delivered 3 world championships in 6 years, and the other has delivered none. Yet the one who has delivered none is treated the way you might expect the one delivering to be.

Lorenzo finished well behind Rossi in 2014, a skosh ahead in 2015 and is running 14 pts behind Rossi in 2016 with four races to go.

Since 2014, Rossi has scored a cumulative 816 pts to Lorenzo's 775.

And the rider championship that Lorenzo delivered, Yamaha already had in the bag by Philip Island.

When Lorenzo matched Rossi's results (2009/2010) he was given an equal standing in the team (resulting in Rossi leaving in a huff). He retained No. 1 status in 2013 when Rossi slunk back after two disastrous seasons with Ducati.

When it comes to the issue that really matters i.e. bike development, Lorenzo's has been given an equal say (until very recently), something he's attested to.

He may not get Jarvis to smile that much, but that's because more often than not, his victories are (relatively) stress-free involving him stretching away big leads by the latter half of the race with the result all but certain with several laps to go.

That being said, when Lorenzo's won a great battle -

https://vimeo.com/185633593

Richy56 · Oct 5, 2016

JKant said:
Could be. Then again, Lorenzo's moving on while Rossi will be with his team at least to 2018, so...

Lorenzo finished well behind Rossi in 2014, a skosh ahead in 2015 and is running 14 pts behind Rossi in 2016 with four races to go.

Since 2014, Rossi has scored a cumulative 816 pts to Lorenzo's 775.

And the rider championship that Lorenzo delivered, Yamaha already had in the bag by Philip Island.

When Lorenzo matched Rossi's results (2009/2010) he was given an equal standing in the team (resulting in Rossi leaving in a huff). He retained No. 1 status in 2013 when Rossi slunk back after two disastrous seasons with Ducati.

When it comes to the issue that really matters i.e. bike development, Lorenzo's has been given an equal say (until very recently), something he's attested to.

He may not get Jarvis to smile that much, but that's because more often than not, his victories are (relatively) stress-free involving him stretching away big leads by the latter half of the race with the result all but certain with several laps to go.

That being said, when Lorenzo's won a great battle -

https://vimeo.com/185633593

Lorenzo is capable of great battles, think Valencia 2013. It's only Rossi fans who say he can only win one way.

Forget points, it championships that count, and VR has zero since he was gifted a yam ride in 2013

....... Rossi is almost as prolific as pedrosa in titles he has lost on a factory bike.

JKant · Oct 5, 2016

Richy56 said:
Lorenzo is capable of great battles, think Valencia 2013.

Err.. or Mugello 2016.

Forget points, it championships that count, and VR has zero since he was gifted a yam ride in 2013

That would mean that there are only three riders in paddock who 'count' (or maybe just two to you), since everyone else is just fighting for points (or the occasional podium when they can).

To most teams, rider results would be important even when the championship isn't in play. Especially when it has an impact on their options going into the future.

Honda for example was justified in favoring Pedrosa over Hayden (who finished behind Melandri in 2007 and Dovizioso in 2008), despite the fact that Pedrosa had no titles (and hasn't won any since).

....... Rossi is almost as prolific as pedrosa in titles he has lost on a factory bike.

Well statistically... Rossi has 7 titles from 17 seasons (41.1%) compared to 3 titles from 9 seasons for Lorenzo (33.3%), though yes given the host of other factors (competition, bike, age) its hardly enough to draw conclusions from. Still.. a useful data-point on the issue of prolificacy.

yamfan · Oct 5, 2016

JKant said:
Err.. or Mugello 2016.

That would mean that there are only three riders in paddock who 'count' (or maybe just two to you), since everyone else is just fighting for points (or the occasional podium when they can).

To most teams, rider results would be important even when the championship isn't in play. Especially when it has an impact on their options going into the future.

Honda for example was justified in favoring Pedrosa over Hayden (who finished behind Melandri in 2007 and Dovizioso in 2008), despite the fact that Pedrosa had no titles (and hasn't won any since).

Well statistically... Rossi has 7 titles from 17 seasons (41.1%) compared to 3 titles from 9 seasons for Lorenzo (33.3%), though yes given the host of other factors (competition, bike, age) its hardly enough to draw conclusions from. Still.. a useful data-point on the issue of prolificacy.

A more useful statistic would be head to head title wins. Many say Rossi's competition wasn't of the same quality when he won many of his earlier titles.
If you're comparing men, surely you should only include the years they've raced each other...

Arrabbiata1 · Oct 5, 2016

yamfan said:
A more useful statistic would be head to head title wins. Many say Rossi's competition wasn't of the same quality when he won many of his earlier titles.
If you're comparing men, surely you should only include the years they've raced each other...

Further, the field was far more inequitable for a multitude of reasons which have been examined in great detail on this board. I would never disregard a World Championship or denigrate a World Champion as so many supposed Rossi fans are so fond of doing about Nicky Hayden, (doubtless having never even hear of Lucchinelli), - the real irony being, that 2002 was a complete and utter ....... farce.

AJV80 · Oct 5, 2016

Ducati will be trialling some new winglets this round at Motegi.

danski · Oct 5, 2016

yamfan said:
In an interview in last week's mcn, Jarvis tells how he's been to the ranch and now it a ritual for "the team" to visit it every year before the Misano race.
He also explains it's a massively low grip level circuit at the ranch, and such a magical place!
I bet Lorenzo doesn't get an invite to this magical place on earth, ffs King Kenny was doing this decades ago. LOL
The low grip level surface is interesting though, perfect training for riding on rock hard low grip motogp Michelins, don't you think?

In the middle of the circuit there's a secret tunnel to Clermonte Ferrand , minions scurry back and forth carrying tyre data to Michelin and new compounds back to the ranch.
It's why VR has won so many races recently

JohnnyKnockdown · Oct 5, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
Perhaps DORNA pipe the canned cheering into the Yamaha garage every time Rossi makes a pass and not just over the TV feed.

That would be the Indianapolis Colts.
Oops wrong thread. That comment belongs in the tire, quitter, real estate, jps ...., vegamite, nfl rb, cheating financial advisor thread

Richy56 · Oct 5, 2016

JKant said:
Err.. or Mugello 2016.

That would mean that there are only three riders in paddock who 'count' (or maybe just two to you), since everyone else is just fighting for points (or the occasional podium when they can).

To most teams, rider results would be important even when the championship isn't in play. Especially when it has an impact on their options going into the future.

Honda for example was justified in favoring Pedrosa over Hayden (who finished behind Melandri in 2007 and Dovizioso in 2008), despite the fact that Pedrosa had no titles (and hasn't won any since).

Well statistically... Rossi has 7 titles from 17 seasons (41.1%) compared to 3 titles from 9 seasons for Lorenzo (33.3%), though yes given the host of other factors (competition, bike, age) its hardly enough to draw conclusions from. Still.. a useful data-point on the issue of prolificacy.

My gran could have been on the podium in 2002 and 2003 on a factory Honda, probably even pushed Rossi to the last round until he bottled it.

If your a factory rider you must win titles. End of.

Also Lorenzo is the only man to beat stoner, Marquez and Rossi fair game to the title.

Honda should not have preferred pedro over Hayden in 2007, man that's like like yam preferring Rossi over lorenzo...... Errrr

danski · Oct 5, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
Further, the field was far more inequitable for a multitude of reasons which have been examined in great detail on this board. I would never disregard a World Championship or denigrate a World Champion as so many supposed Rossi fans are so fond of doing about Nicky Hayden, (doubtless having never even hear of Lucchinelli), - the real irony being, that 2002 was a complete and utter ....... farce.

Why consider it a farce? If 2002 was a farce then the same logic would apply to 2007 when a new formula saw one manufacturer steal a march on the rest.

Gaz · Oct 5, 2016

Daniboy said:
Why consider it a farce? If 2002 was a farce then the same logic would apply to 2007 when a new formula saw one manufacturer steal a march on the rest.

May be wrong Dani but in 2007 all of the bikes were factory supplied 800cc machines (thus theoretically all equally competitive) whereas in 2002 the factories used 990cc machines with much of their competition left to use the previous 500cc machines (in many cases a year or two old) which were ridiculously underpowered by comparison.

The major difference being the availability of 'competitive' machinery as whilst yes they both are/were a transition year it is also fair to say that in 2002 the amount of people able to transition was restricted whereas in 2007 it was all or none.

The farce was more in the end results as the four strokes simply dominated the two strokes which could not compete whereas in 2007 it was more a case of universes aligning.

Essentially it is/was more about the manner of the march than a manufacturer stealing the march

Edit. In some way it was like the CRT concept from the recent years where it was known that the CRT bikes would not win, nor podium but they were there to make up the numbers excepting that in 2002 the numbers and any semblance of being competitive were more skewed

danski · Oct 5, 2016

Gaz said:
May be wrong Dani but in 2007 all of the bikes were factory supplied 800cc machines (thus theoretically all equally competitive) whereas in 2002 the factories used 990cc machines with much of their competition left to use the previous 500cc machines (in many cases a year or two old) which were ridiculously underpowered by comparison.

The major difference being the availability of 'competitive' machinery as whilst yes they both are/were a transition year it is also fair to say that in 2002 the amount of people able to transition was restricted whereas in 2007 it was all or none.

The farce was more in the end results as the four strokes simply dominated the two strokes which could not compete whereas in 2007 it was more a case of universes aligning.

Essentially it is/was more about the manner of the march than a manufacturer stealing the march

Wasn't the switch to 4t considered a risk at the time?

Arrabbiata1 · Oct 5, 2016

Daniboy said:
Why consider it a farce? If 2002 was a farce then the same logic would apply to 2007 when a new formula saw one manufacturer steal a march on the rest.

No it wouldn't - dreadful analogy. As usual you have spectacularly missed the point. In 2002 half the field was comprised of ailing two strokes with a freeze on development. In 2007 the formula was even. True, Honda was an also ran,
and granted by '07 the Bridgestone's had progressed beyond an emergent threat at a selection of fly aways.

However, although the GP07 had an appreciable straight line advantage, unlike the RCV211 which was initially availed to two riders, the Ducati was an extremely difficult bike to ride and corner which meant it had to be ridden in a very unorthodox way. Put that bike into the hands of anyone on the grid at the time and I guarantee, Ducati don't win the title.

Please explain to me precisely who you regard as Valentino Rossi's competition in 2002 - and with which machinery? Toru Ukawa was all but consigned to his role as a test rider but disguised in Repsol leathers - but even he won on the Honda...Barros raced one out of the crate and beat Rossi on his first ride on the thing at Motegi, then again at Valencia. Barros and Kato languished for half the season on the NSR...Capirossi spent the entire season on the 500 together with the other two stroke incumbents. But it wasn't even a case of have and have not. Of the four strokes, the M1 was vastly inferior (that Biaggi actually manage to win two races on the thing, I regard as one of his greatest feats as GP rider), the Zook an unmitigated disaster and the Cube was all but unrideable.

This has been done to death. I really don't mind going there again, but if you really believe that 2002 was anything but farcical I suggest (a) you completely revise your conception of racing and (b) acquaint yourself with the season again.

It was 2002 that the mythology began to falsely ferment. The most ludicrously one sided season since 1976. Utter joke. Frankly it was embarrassing to watch then and still is now.

danski · Oct 5, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
No it wouldn't - dreadful analogy. As usual you have spectacularly missed the point. In 2002 half the field was comprised of ailing two strokes with a freeze on development. In 2007 the formula was even. True, Honda was an also ran,
and granted by '07 the Bridgestone's had progressed beyond an emergent threat at a selection of fly aways.

However, although the GP07 had an appreciable straight line advantage, unlike the RCV211 which was initially availed to two riders, the Ducati was an extremely difficult bike to ride and corner which meant it had to be ridden in a very unorthodox way. Put that bike into the hands of anyone on the grid at the time and I guarantee, Ducati don't win the title.

Please explain to me precisely who you regard as Valentino Rossi's competition in 2002 - and with which machinery? Toru Ukawa was all but consigned to his role as a test rider but disguised in Repsol leathers - but even he won on the Honda...Barros raced one out of the crate and beat Rossi on his first ride on the thing at Motegi, then again at Valencia. Barros and Kato languished for half the season on the NSR...Capirossi spent the entire season on the 500 together with the other two stroke incumbents. But it wasn't even a case of have and have not. Of the four strokes, the M1 was vastly inferior (that Biaggi actually manage to win two races on the thing, I regard as one of his greatest feats as GP rider), the Zook an unmitigated disaster and the Cube was all but unrideable.

This has been done to death. I really don't mind going there again, but if you really believe that 2002 was anything but farcical I suggest (a) you completely revise your conception of racing and (b) equate yourself with the season again.

It was 2002 that the mythology began to falsely ferment. The most ludicrously one sided season since 1976. Utter joke. Frankly it was embarrassing to watch then and still is now.

I was asking a question, are you always so irritable?

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