Lorenzo - I don't care about MotoGP championship

moto vudu circa 2012 said:

Everyone is on the same tires, that's an issue with Valentino's riding style and skillset. All GP riders are expected to adapt to changing tires and bike technologies. Valentino has won on the Bridgestones, he just hasn't performed well when the bike isn't perfect.

Click to expand...

Fixed....

moto vudu said:

When has Vale raced around in dead last position? Vale finished 2nd in the championship last year on the Bridgestones.

Lorenzo has trouble adapting this year, that's his problem. It's not a magic tire that's specifically made to hurt Lorenzo. If Rossi was struggling more this year, you'd claim it's because he sucks and is washed up. But whenever Lorenzo fails to perform, it's because of something behind the scenes that has been put in place to hurt him. Because you know... Lorenzo is a perfect rider with no flaws.

Click to expand...

You should re-read up there...you've missed something important...

moto vudu said:

There was nothing important in your post.

Click to expand...

Oh there is...I see reading isn't your strong suit...

moto vudu said:

I can't read and you can't leave your mother's basement. Guess we're both failures.

Click to expand...

Vudu, I know you have it in you to find what I refer to...a little effort...

moto vudu said:

When has Vale raced around in dead last position? Vale finished 2nd in the championship last year on the Bridgestones.

Lorenzo has trouble adapting this year, that's his problem. It's not a magic tire that's specifically made to hurt Lorenzo. If Rossi was struggling more this year, you'd claim it's because he sucks and is washed up. But whenever Lorenzo fails to perform, it's because of something behind the scenes that has been put in place to hurt him. Because you know... Lorenzo is a perfect rider with no flaws.

Click to expand...

You are not helping yourself. People who said Valentino was old and washed up in 2013, which didn't include me btw, were clearly wrong, but if so to what other than an unsuitable tyre do you attribute him being rather uncompetitive with the other 3 riders of what were then the only 4 competitive bikes in that year? We also have seen Jorge win 3 races rather well this year in favourable conditions for the remaining Michelin tyres which suit his riding style, and be dominant in pre-season testing on the particular Michelin tyre which suited him even more but had to be withdrawn because it was unsafe.

I doubt there is a specific tyre conspiracy against Lorenzo this year either (not so sure about Stoner/Honda in 2012, and also have my doubts about Stoner/Ducati in 2008), but it is hard to dispute that Michelin have stuffed up, with their soft dry tyre having to be withdrawn as above, their soft wet tyre delaminating unpredictably rather than just wearing out as the preceding Bridgestone wets did, and also multiple unpredictable front tyre washouts in general for a variety of riders early season. Another rider also usually near the front of the field in Dani Pedrosa has been fairly uncompetitive which looks very likely to be tyre related as well.

In recent races it is starting to look as though, mostly through sheer blind luck imo, Dorna have chanced this year on a more even playing field. To the extent this is due to the control ECU I will give them credit, but not for the Michelin tyre lottery.

In general however in the control tyre era previously that rule has neither leveled the field nor reduced costs, which were its purported aims, and Dorna has been indifferent to the effects of unsuitable tyres not just on individual riders but on multiple entire marques. I don't deny that Lorenzo is flawed in being overly dependent on suitable tyres (mainly in more recent seasons) and that Stoner to a lesser extent was also tyre dependent; I recall suggesting on here perhaps injudiciously when he was looking dominant on the Honda that taking away his preferred "hard" tyre was perhaps the way to stop him.

The basic question for me remains, as it has for 9 seasons, what is wrong with having tyres which suit a wider range of bikes and riders?

Whether the tyres have been manipulated with malice aforethought or Michelin/Dorna are just incompetent, your boy remains screwed in any case, since any tyre which suits him also suits MM, and it looks as though the best and most versatile rider in MM, who still comparatively thrives even when he makes an error in his tyre choice, will justly win the championship.

Just shows what an absolute bag of ..... bike Rossi is developing if the current world champ is so far off the pace. Yam Should have stuck with 99 for bike development and success.

Why should Lorenzo care, he is just telling the truth. He has been ...... over by yam, I hope he smokes them on the duc

moto vudu said:

When has Vale raced around in dead last position? Vale finished 2nd in the championship last year on the Bridgestones.

Lorenzo has trouble adapting this year, that's his problem. It's not a magic tire that's specifically made to hurt Lorenzo. If Rossi was struggling more this year, you'd claim it's because he sucks and is washed up. But whenever Lorenzo fails to perform, it's because of something behind the scenes that has been put in place to hurt him. Because you know... Lorenzo is a perfect rider with no flaws.

Click to expand...

Grand Prix motorcycling should have the best riders win, not the best tyres. Dovi said it right in today's press conference, the tyres are too unpredictable and are throwing up strange results.

moto vudu said:

Dovi still hasn't won... nothing strange about that.

Click to expand...

Once again, the message flies over your head, and you'd rather ignore it than to actually focus on the merit of what Dovi said.

Could it not be argued that Michelin has in fact made tires that suit a wider variety of riders? Yes, I realize that there are many factors, but we have had more race winners this year than we have had for quite some time.

Iowegian said:

Could it not be argued that Michelin has in fact made tires that suit a wider variety of riders? Yes, I realize that there are many factors, but we have had more race winners this year than we have had for quite some time.

Click to expand...

See my previous post where I addressed this point. It is supposed to be GP bike racing, not TyreLotto, and as I have said this year we have had a tyre withdrawn (which happens to be the one on which Jorge Lorenzo was fairly untouchable) after a terrifying incident involving a tyre failure for Redding at high speed, random front end tyre washouts for a variety of riders, and unpredictable tyre delamination of a Michelin wet tyre.


It is indeed quite possible imo that Michelin had instructions from Dorna to make tyres which don't last the whole race to "improve the racing", but if you think that is how GP bike racing should be run I can suggest another "sport" you might also enjoy, WWE wrestling.

Iowegian said:

Could it not be argued that Michelin has in fact made tires that suit a wider variety of riders? Yes, I realize that there are many factors, but we have had more race winners this year than we have had for quite some time.

Click to expand...

Pirelli created a tire lottery situation in F1 back in 2012 by creating tires that were of dubious construction and longevity. There were 7 different winners in the first 7 races, and most everyone hailed it as being "great" for the sport. I thought it was particularly fraudulent because the problem with making tires of dubious construct is that while you can create unpredictability with winners, you also are not rewarding drivers/teams based on performance, but on nothing more than chance. Though in spite of the lottery situation, the teams were very smart, and Red Bull finally cracked the mystery of the Pirelli tires enough to give Vettel 4 straight wins at one point that put him right in contention for the title he ultimately won. In 2013, Pirelli tried to replicate 2012, and in the process made a tire that started delaminating. Due to safety concerns they had to change the tire construction, and as soon as they did Red Bull were on top of it, and Vettel won the final 9 races of the season. Lotteries ultimate get won by the best teams because they have the resources to find solutions that smaller teams simply cannot.

Now, I don't think the Michelin tire situation is anywhere near what that F1 situation was/is. I do think the tire change with the spec ECU has created a "perfect storm" scenario where the factory teams are still grappling with how to program effectively after going back the equivalent of 10 years in technology based on what Nakamoto said, all while trying to learn how the Michelin tires behave. While a factory rider is going to win the title, the usual 1:4 odds of winning a race by simply being on either the factory RCV or factory M1 have decreased to about 1:6 in my estimation. Still very good odds, but not quite the 25% success rate of the 2011-2015 period. I wouldn't expect this to continue into 2017, but who knows, perhaps it will. This also still isn't even getting into the questionable construction of tires Michelin has been engaging in since before the season started. They've been woefully unprepared IMO, and it's been of considerable danger to the riders that they did not perform due diligence on these tires. The front tire is an absolute embarrassment, and it's a shame it's a control tire as they've got zero incentive right now to improve anything.

moto vudu said:

When has Vale raced around in dead last position? Vale finished 2nd in the championship last year on the Bridgestones.

Click to expand...

Last year the season comprised of several types of tyre construction, more often actually we got the harder version that suits Rossi more.
When Valentino returned to Yamaha, who was the person praising and saying he would soon regain his mojo, whilst others openly said he was finished?
It was Lorenzo showing class and decency, giving encouragement to his struggling team mate. Still the blinkered journalists and custard tarts call him arrogant though.
Haven't seen Rossi being complimentary towards Lorenzo though, and he's the cuddly, friendly goat that everyone loves...
It's clear Lorenzo's not going to do a great lot this season, he's in an Italian based team with mainly Italian staff and he's up against a hugely popular Italian rider. Couple that lot up with the fact he's leaving for Ducati, Yamaha Italia aren't going to bust their ..... trying to help him beat his team mate. He'll get no developmental help due to his move either (this is totally fair and understandable) which won't help if they do have some useful updates up their sleeves.
All in all, just because he's not doing too well at times, it's not like he's totally out of it. It's "unlikely" but he could recover and beat Rossi overall.
If it does happen will you heap the same venom and ridicule on Rossi, or will you find an excuse for Rossi's "bad luck"?

Iowegian said:

Could it not be argued that Michelin has in fact made tires that suit a wider variety of riders? Yes, I realize that there are many factors, but we have had more race winners this year than we have had for quite some time.

Click to expand...

Probably more to do with the electronics from my understanding

He completely mastered the rain this year ! :blowup:

michaelm said:

See my previous post where I addressed this point. It is supposed to be GP bike racing, not TyreLotto, and as I have said this year we have had a tyre withdrawn ( which happens to be the one on which Jorgr Lorenzo was fairly untouchable) after a terrifying incident involving a tyre failure for Redding at high speed, random front end tyre washouts for a variety of riders, and unpredictable tyre delamination of a Michelin wet tyre.





It is indeed quite possible imo that Michelin had instructions from Dorna to make tyres which don't last the whole race to "improve the racing", but if you think that is how GP bike racing should be run I can suggest another "sport" you might also enjoy, WWE wrestling.

Click to expand...

Don't you find it intriguing that a front tyre that was praised for its longevity and grip over the race was suddenly withdrawn? Wasn't Jorge over 7 seconds faster than the Bridgestone shod bike that won in 2014?
The tyres that failed were rear tyres and other Michelin fronts that washed out, as they sought to provide a tyre that satisfied the main man.

michaelm said:

And what of Rossi's own conspiracy theory concerning last season? Entirely different perhaps, or not a conspiracy theory because it fits your view of the world?. Again, given late season last year, it is open season for conspiracy theories I would have thought.

Assuming Jorge is not completely stupid, what would be the point of him complaining about the tyres in his current circumstance?. He may be misguided, but there is ample evidence his determination is not to be underestimated. He is not going to Ducati for the money imo, and do you really think he made the decision to go there after 3 titles and 43 premier class race wins for Yamaha in the belief it would help him win this year's world championship?

He isn't complaining about going to Ducati next year either. Does this mean this was entirely his preference, and that he was lying previously when he said as recently as last year that he would like to be a Yamaha icon like Roberts, Lawson and Rainey whom he matches for world championships as a Yamaha rider?

Click to expand...

Personally - I find it very suspicious that your name with just a few letters changed spells Michelin. More importantly it's an anagram for Ham Clime. I tell you, it keeps me up at night.