Laguna race thread

[Keshav]

I'm outraged! This has never, ever happened in the MotoGP paddock before. We should write Carmelo a letter...

Wait... you mean to say that them rider fellers get PAID to have all them cool stickers on their moty-cycles?

Dang, who dreams up these sweet ideas?

 

[Tom]

Especially when you consider that Spies is regularly trashing Dovi and The Beast on the full-factory Hondas.

He isn't 'trashing' him that often, and he's a fair way behind in points. Ben is lingering on the edge of the top 5 riders in the world. It's a good place to be but progress will be extremely hard

On the other hand - we have seen Spies races where he was at the front right from the start.

Just now - he's incapable of grasping the mechanics of making a good start and he's had

plenty of time to figure it out. How come???

Because the others are better than him at it.

A. You haven't proved .....

B. Muscle is where much nutrient is stored - where's the contradiction?

C. If you're trying to brand me a party animal - you're really barking up the wrong tree. Moreover - you're a hypocrite as you yourself are a self-professed substance abuser. I on the other hand haven't touched hard drugs or hard liquor in over 22 years. Nothing wrong with me in that department.



D. If you think starving the body doesn't affect mental acuity - then your belief flies in the face of medical opinions held by every doctor in the world.

I don't think anyone is denying the links you are suggesting, but i for one very much doubt Spies is suffering from any of these things.

 

[mylexicon]

I don't think anyone is denying the links you are suggesting, but i for one very much doubt Spies is suffering from any of these things.

Not that this hypothetical debate should continue to perpetuate, but I tend to agree with Keshav. Ben is underweight, and like Toseland before him, he has turned up ill at some of the summer rounds. Perhaps Ben is in good condition at a majority of the races, but dieting himself into illness (the likely culprit for someone who is 20lbs underweight) is not a negligible consequence of the MotoGP diet. Illness surely inhibits physical stamina and mental acuity.



However, Hopper may have suggested that this dieting will continue no matter what the regulations may be. IIRC, he said something about carrying more muscle mass would exhaust him even more quickly b/c he must support the additional weight during braking and acceleration. Performance might be pushing riders to adopt extreme diets even more than fuel regulations and engine formulas.

 

[Bigguy]

Where is Ben missing his marks?

That's easy. He runs the first third of the race poorly and is about .2 off the pace, generally speaking. Not much, but it adds up - especially when you are already behind off the start.



I'm a Spies fan too, but I'm not blind.

 

[hawkdriver]

Not that this hypothetical debate should continue to perpetuate, but I tend to agree with Keshav. Ben is underweight, and like Toseland before him, he has turned up ill at some of the summer rounds. Perhaps Ben is in good condition at a majority of the races, but dieting himself into illness (the likely culprit for someone who is 20lbs underweight) is not a negligible consequence of the MotoGP diet. Illness surely inhibits physical stamina and mental acuity.



However, Hopper may have suggested that this dieting will continue no matter what the regulations may be. IIRC, he said something about carrying more muscle mass would exhaust him even more quickly b/c he must support the additional weight during braking and acceleration. Performance might be pushing riders to adopt extreme diets even more than fuel regulations and engine formulas.

How much does he weigh? I see him listed at 5'11 160lbs, that seems normal but maybe those are old numbers.

 

[michaelm]

Obtuse as ever Pov. It's not about beef or meat in particular. It's about possessing a level of body fat appropriate to

to one's physique. Much of the nutrients needed to power the brain are diverted to other purposes when the body

is in effect fasting. This is not a crack-pot theory. It's well known fact. I've been fasting regularly for years and

and have done the research. My wife is a former nutritionist and has done diet counceling for numerous atheletes.





Having a beefier bike won't solve Spies' problems. Everyone will have the same advantage in 2012.

This doctor agrees with you, although I have not worked in anything connected to this area for many years. Certainly in radical weight loss diets for the pathologically obese, a certain baseline number of calories are necessary otherwise muscle/protein is broken down for gluconeogenesis largely because the brain needs glucose to function.



I would doubt ben is at that sort of level of caloric restriction, but he may be at a level where he is more susceptible to viral infections due to immune suppression which is fairly common in endurance athletes; you have both knowledge and personal experience concerning this sort of thing I believe.



I tend to agree with those who are saying his early race problems are riding related and particularly concern warming up the motogp bridgestones (with very different characteristics to wsbk tyres) early in races rather than due to any pathophysiological disturbance, and that he will methodically eventually work this out as he has most things previously in his career.

 

[michaelm]

Seriously getting sick of reading your extremely 1-sided pile of .... posts. That move Rossi made wasn't out of desperation, he'd made the move before on the first lap with no issues what so ever, when he went into the gravel he obviously got it slightly wrong, Stoner probably braked a little later than Rossi expected. Either way, on that day, Stoner got beaten. There were great moves by both riders. At Jerez, yup, Rossi got it wrong big time...he's human. Stoner was pissed but what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger and he's leading the championship even with that DNF.

We have been over this far too many times, but whilst the rest of rossi's race at laguna seca 2008 was tactically and strategically brilliant, a display of immense skill and will to win etc, I don't think you can call the corkscrew thing a great move; he essentially almost lost the bike and it was totally remarkable that he kept it upright, but if totally deliberate (which it wasn't) it would not have been legitimate.



Incidentally and for those who called stoner's outside pass on lorenzo a simple move virtually on the straight, the same kevin schwantz who rightly acclaimed rossi for basically doing the impossible at laguna seca in 2008 has called stoner's pass as good and ballsy a move as he has seen.

 

[ScottP]

Year 1 - development. Year 2 - wins. Year 3 - championship contender/victor



Where is Ben missing his marks? Only 5 people have won a dry race in the 800cc era. Four of them are aliens, one of them is trying to become an alien.



90% of motorcycle racing is between the ears, and in that regard, Spies is one of the best, if not the best, on the grid. The difference maker will not be the nature of the machine, but the fact that everything will be changing. Ground zero for everyone. New tires and new bikes for the entire grid.



There is nothing about Ben's circumstances that is objectionable from the standpoint of his fans. He's doing what he is supposed to do. I tend to think he is wasting his time b/c the 21L rule doesn't flatter his abilities which means he will always be fighting an uphill battle against the clowns in the MSMA, but it isn't my career. The legitimate concern about his performance is not alien or no alien, but that he tends to have bogey tracks like Estoril, Sachsenring, LeMans, and possibly a few more depending upon his performance during the last 8 rounds. He also has a tendency in the last 3 years, to score poor results in the early part of the season. Not a good trend, but why sweat it? Lorenzo had a problem crashing. Pedrosa still has a problem with injuries. One of the aliens rides outside of the top 5 while everyone blames his bike even though they've seen it win races. What reality are American fans uncomfortable discussing regarding Ben Spies?



Why would anyone worry about alien status anyway? The alien concept was reincarnated by tires and small capacity engines. For all we know, tires and small capacity engines could vanquish the concept again. In 2006, the only thing that mattered was finishing strong on spent tires. Trends are temporary.

Spies should not be at YAMAHAAAA

because with JLo, he’s not getting all the technology and/or support that he deserves for his talent.



He’s a cool guy the typical knock about Yankee guy very straight forward etc etc but it takes more than that and he has to get that YAMAHAAAA moving sooner and not later as his results don’t look too great for a factory team!!!



And his 4[sup]th[/sup] @ Laguna Seca was a luckyresult because as Dovi said, he got tired! I like the guy but for allthe wrappes that he gets I would demand better results from him from GP to GPbecause he’s not got a mule between his legs...he’s on a racehorse and judging by his results theracehorse wants to go but the jokey keeps pulling him back!! Heheee

 

[ScottP]

Who is Mladin??? He is what he is when he gets on the motogp platform!!! And what he was is last!!! So lets not go on about this guy Mladin's history ability etc etc...STOP IT

...and lets get back to the real issues!!!

 

[mylexicon]

That's easy. He runs the first third of the race poorly and is about .2 off the pace, generally speaking. Not much, but it adds up - especially when you are already behind off the start.



I'm a Spies fan too, but I'm not blind.

Imo, his poor starts may be a consequence of the chassis variant he uses. He says he like the Rossi-chassis, but it is unclear how much control he has over the equipment he rides. Not accusing Yamaha of anything, just saying that's what it is for right now. It won't matter next year b/c everyone is getting new bikes and new tires. If Ben still has poor starts, we will know that MotoGP has exposed a weakness.



I'm not blind, but I don't see the benefit of adopting an untested premise for the purpose of making Rogerian concessions to Ben's detractors. I'd rather figure out what is going on.

 

[spooky]

We have been over this far too many times, but whilst the rest of rossi's race at laguna seca 2008 was tactically and strategically brilliant, a display of immense skill and will to win etc, I don't think you can call the corkscrew thing a great move; he essentially almost lost the bike and it was totally remarkable that he kept it upright, but if totally deliberate (which it wasn't) it would not have been legitimate.



Incidentally and for those who called stoner's outside pass on lorenzo a simple move virtually on the straight, the same kevin schwantz who rightly acclaimed rossi for basically doing the impossible at laguna seca in 2008 has called stoner's pass as good and ballsy a move as he has seen.

I agree, it wasnt the best move, he did get it wrong. He was only trying to repeat a move he'd done earlier though... It was a miracle he didnt bin it, taking Stoner with him.



Stoners move on Lorenzo was 1 of the best i've ever seen, he pulled a similar move on Rossi in 2008 on the hill leading up to the corkscrew(or a corner or 2 before) where he apparantly made contact, absolutely sublime move though.



I do apologize for perhaps being a little over the top to Scotty, his posts do infuriate me though.. Your posts however are always a pleasure to read!

 

[corinthian]

‘corinthian’ I fully agree with you ...

I think you've misread what I wrote. You can't say you agree with someone and then in the following sentence argue for something that is the complete opposite of what you just agreed with. I thought the 2008 corkscrew move was awesome, legal or not, intentional or not, doesn't matter. It made a very good race into a great race that will always stay in my mind.



You want to churn out flamebait and hagiography? Leave me out of it.

 

[Keshav]

A. He isn't 'trashing' him that often, and he's a fair way behind in points. Ben is lingering on the edge of the top 5 riders in the world. It's a good place to be but progress will be extremely hard







B. Because the others are better than him at it.







C. I don't think anyone is denying the links you are suggesting, but i for one very much doubt Spies is suffering from any of these things.

A. If it were not for the crash in the rain and ...... luck with the clamp not removed he would be ahead of them.



B. So it would seem - but that's rather the point. The question is why.



C. Never said I could definitively prove it. It's merely educated speculation.



A story (a true one) that supports my theory: I have a dear friend who is a freak for chess. She's a wizard master on the chessboard.

She has a regular coterie of opponents with whom she plays. Two years ago she decided to go Veg. Within weeks all the people who

looked to her as being virtually unbeatable - started regularly kicking her .... Within a few days of going back to eating fish - nobody

could touch her on the chessboard again. She said she didn't feel any weaker or any less intelligent as a Veg - but there was a clear and

distinct difference in the way her problem solving abilities worked.

 

[Baffy]

Seeing as its kind of on topic at the moment, can someone explain to me why the rossi - stoner pass didn't result in Rossi being penalised? Seeing as he gained an advantage by riding off the track?



I cant remember the details from that long ago but have been thinking about the last few days.

 

[povol]

He isn't 'trashing' him that often, and he's a fair way behind in points. Ben is lingering on the edge of the top 5 riders in the world. It's a good place to be but progress will be extremely hard







Because the others are better than him at it.







I don't think anyone is denying the links you are suggesting, but i for one very much doubt Spies is suffering from any of these things.

Tom, your being obtuse

 

[povol]

Not that this hypothetical debate should continue to perpetuate, but I tend to agree with Keshav. Ben is underweight, and like Toseland before him, he has turned up ill at some of the summer rounds. Perhaps Ben is in good condition at a majority of the races, but dieting himself into illness (the likely culprit for someone who is 20lbs underweight) is not a negligible consequence of the MotoGP diet. Illness surely inhibits physical stamina and mental acuity.



However, Hopper may have suggested that this dieting will continue no matter what the regulations may be. IIRC, he said something about carrying more muscle mass would exhaust him even more quickly b/c he must support the additional weight during braking and acceleration. Performance might be pushing riders to adopt extreme diets even more than fuel regulations and engine formulas.

Facts just dont agree with you guys. Compared to most Americans, Ben probably looks downright emaciated, but that is not the facts. There are literally thousands of professional opinions on how much someone should weigh for their height and frame, and Spies is right smack dab in the middle of the perfect target weight for his height.



Height Small Frame Medium Frame Large Frame

5' 2" 128-134 131-141 138-150

5' 3" 130-136 133-143 140-153

5'' 4" 132-138 135-145 142-156

5' 5" 134-140 137-148 144-160

5' 6" 136-142 139-151 146-164

5' 7" 138-145 142-154 149-168

5' 8" 140-148 145-157 152-172

5' 9" 142-151 148-160 155-176

5' 10" 144-154 151-163 158-180

5' 11" 146-157 154-166 161-184

6' 0" 149-160 157-170 164-188

6' 1" 152-164 160-174 168-192

6' 2" 155-168 164-178 172-197

6' 3" 158-172 167-182 176-202

6' 4" 162-176 171-187 181-207

 

[michaelm]

Seeing as its kind of on topic at the moment, can someone explain to me why the rossi - stoner pass didn't result in Rossi being penalised? Seeing as he gained an advantage by riding off the track?



I cant remember the details from that long ago but have been thinking about the last few days.

I am not sure that was a rule at the time, either in motogp in general or at laguna seca in particular, possibly because the normal result of such an excursion on a motogp bike would be putting the bike down.



Alex zanardi made a successful pass in a similar fashion in an indycar race, except he cut off much more of the corner; this was legal at the time but subsequently made illegal.

 

[Keshav]

Facts just dont agree with you guys. Compared to most Americans, Ben probably looks downright emaciated, but that is not the facts. There are literally thousands of professional opinions on how much someone should weigh for their height and frame, and Spies is right smack dab in the middle of the perfect target weight for his height.



Height Small Frame Medium Frame Large Frame

5' 2" 128-134 131-141 138-150

5' 3" 130-136 133-143 140-153

5'' 4" 132-138 135-145 142-156

5' 5" 134-140 137-148 144-160

5' 6" 136-142 139-151 146-164

5' 7" 138-145 142-154 149-168

5' 8" 140-148 145-157 152-172

5' 9" 142-151 148-160 155-176

5' 10" 144-154 151-163 158-180

5' 11" 146-157 154-166 161-184

6' 0" 149-160 157-170 164-188

6' 1" 152-164 160-174 168-192

6' 2" 155-168 164-178 172-197

6' 3" 158-172 167-182 176-202

6' 4" 162-176 171-187 181-207

None of the above, which are only general, statistical guidelines have any bearing on what is healthy and natural for the individual known as Ben Spies. Moreover - these are figures that relate to the average Joe desk-jockey, and not as such applicable to world-class athletes, whose requirements for nutrition, muscle mass and body fat are much greater. Since they don't teach the basics of nutrition at Garage Mechanic High, or Hillbilly U. I understand how know this kind of thing could be over your head so let me put it in terms you can understand. Ben and Nicky are both (in my opinion) suffering from the nutritional/mental equivalent of the 21 liter fuel limit.

 

[povol]

None of the above, which are only general, statistical guidelines have any bearing on what is healthy and natural for the individual known as Ben Spies. Moreover - these are figures that relate to the average Joe desk-jockey, not world-class athletes, whose requirements for nutrition, muscle mass and body fat are much greater. I know this stuff is over your head so let me put it in terms you can understand. Ben and Nicky are both (in my opinion) suffering from the nutritional equivalent of the 21 liter fuel limit.

Thank you, nor does your opinion

 

[povol]

A. You haven't proved .....

B. Muscle is where much nutrient is stored - where's the contradiction?

C. If you're trying to brand me a party animal - you're really barking up the wrong tree. Moreover - you're a hypocrite as you yourself are a self-professed substance abuser I on the other hand haven't touched hard drugs or hard liquor in over 22 years. ]Nothing wrong with me in that department.



D. If you think starving the body doesn't affect mental acuity - then your belief flies in the face of medical opinions held by every doctor in the world.

I see what you did there.

You would make a hell of an attorney, or a politician.