Jorge $13,000,000 contract with Ducati

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (two-stroke @ Aug 20 2009, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Casey Stoner IS the only human being on the planet to take the Ducati to consistent success in the 800cc era.
We are talking about future not past mate and even if he has taken ducati to the top in the past is there any guarantee that he do it again especially after last season and current one.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 20 2009, 09:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Take off your glasses Austin and see jumkie's post where he dismissed every human being on this planet to take ducati to the top expect one and then tell me who is trolling.
You don't read so well, do you? Calm down, Austin wasn't taking sides.

Anyway, I didn't wish to continue the debate, because as he said, it goes nowhere. You asked why I thought Stoner was so special and went on condescending by asking what he had achieved in 8 years. Newsflash genius, he wasn't on a Ducati for 8 years. To answer your question as to why I think Stoner is "so special", its because he actually won a title on that machine. On top of that, perhaps you didn't know, but as of Brno, Stoner had been the winingest rider (of all the grid) since Stoner set foot on a Ducati. The Rossi fanboys, as yourself, like to taut the many titles, but never factor in the clearly preferential treatment he's got in MotoGP, yet in the same breath have the hypocrisy to point to Stoner's bike as if that was the magic bullet. When everything, all evidence points to the fact that Stoner beat Rossi on what is an inferior bike. So when I point this out, that Rossi has had the benefit of "special" treatment and gear, you boys just won't accept the truth. Point to the many titles means nothing if you're not gonna factor in the best everything. I'd say the first year switch to Yamaha was the most impressive, but have you considered attrition? No. Only the other riders who beat Rossi have experienced that, right? You guys also like to say he was the fastest, well not really. Fact is Stoner still has more polls and fastest laps. Stoner beat Rossi, and he did it on a lesser bike (of course you will continue to think The Ducati was better, though nothing supports your view). Yet quite the opposite is true when you compare the Yamaha to everything else on the grid. Hahaha.

Dorna is the DMG of MotoGP. In this case, Rossi is the Buell of the grid. Hell, not only did they move heaven and earth to get him Bstones, but they made everybody else use his tire specs. How is that for preferential treatment?



Trolling?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 20 2009, 05:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You don't read so well, do you? Calm down, Austin wasn't taking sides.

Anyway, I didn't wish to continue the debate, because as he said, it goes nowhere. You asked why I thought Stoner was so special and went on condescending by asking what he had achieved in 8 years. Newsflash genius, he wasn't on a Ducati for 8 years. To answer your question as to why I think Stoner is "so special", its because he actually won a title on that machine. On top of that, perhaps you didn't know, but as of Brno, Stoner had been the winingest rider (of all the grid) since Stoner set foot on a Ducati. The Rossi fanboys, as yourself, like to taut the many titles, but never factor in the clearly preferential treatment he's got in MotoGP, yet in the same breath have the hypocrisy to point to Stoner's bike as if that was the magic bullet. When everything, all evidence points to the fact that Stoner beat Rossi on what is an inferior bike. So when I point this out, that Rossi has had the benefit of "special" treatment and gear, you boys just won't accept the truth. Point to the many titles means nothing if you're not gonna factor in the best everything. I'd say the first year switch to Yamaha was the most impressive, but have you considered attrition? No. Only the other riders who beat Rossi have experienced that, right? You guys also like to say he was the fastest, well not really. Fact is Stoner still has more polls and fastest laps. Stoner beat Rossi, and he did it on a lesser bike (of course you will continue to think The Ducati was better, though nothing supports your view). Yet quite the opposite is true when you compare the Yamaha to everything else on the grid. Hahaha.

Dorna is the DMG of MotoGP. In this case, Rossi is the Buell of the grid. Hell, not only did they move heaven and earth to get him Bstones, but they made everybody else use his tire specs. How is that for preferential treatment?



Trolling?
Jumkie to be honest with you at times its really point less debating with you because you know too much about motogp and especially what goes behind the secne and being a causal fans we are unable to get that kind of info.

None of info in your post are facts basically this is your personal opinion which you are entitled to have.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 20 2009, 09:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie to be honest with you at times its really point less debating with you because you know too much about motogp and especially what goes behind the secne and being a causal fans we are unable to get that kind of info.

None of info in your post are facts basically this is your personal opinion which you are entitled to have.


oh man

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 20 2009, 09:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie to be honest with you at times its really point less debating with you because you know too much about motogp and especially what goes behind the secne and being a causal fans we are unable to get that kind of info.

Thanks for realizing that.




Inam, you are new (relative), but here is a bone. I dont throw out too many, but you should realize that the only fans to rubbish Stoner are Rossi fanboys, so my replies stoop sometimes. Interestingly, I'm neither a fan of either, but I just like to show the glaring double standard of The Cult. I'm well aware that Rossi is extraordinary, just seems that you guys think nobody else is. Don't take it personal. Your not so much my aim, as you are rather easy to identify, its the subtle Worshippers like Babel & J4rn0 i'm after.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Aug 20 2009, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>oh man

Oh man as well !

Been reading through this thread and I feel exhausted

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 20 2009, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Take off your glasses Austin and see jumkie's post where he dismissed every human being on this planet to take ducati to the top expect one and then tell me who is trolling.
Which he has facts to support his statement. Until Valentino takes the plunge and gives the Desmo a shot, we'll never know. So right now, Stoner is the only man on the planet to get the most out of that machine and the only one to win a championship on it. Yeah, it was a wind up but the premise is based in fact. Like I said, it's a trolling debate. It's not rose glasses, just pointing out hypocrisy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 20 2009, 06:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Inam, you are new (relative), but here is a bone. I dont throw out too many, but you should realize that the only fans to rubbish Stoner are Rossi fanboys, so my replies stoop sometimes. Interestingly, I'm neither a fan of either, but I just like to show the glaring double standard of The Cult. I'm well aware that Rossi is extraordinary, just seems that you guys think nobody else is. Don't take it personal. Your not so much my aim, as you are rather easy to identify, its the subtle Worshippers like Babel & J4rn0 i'm after.
Come on Jumkie do you really think that we are all stupid here on this forum.Some times it looks like that you are no CS payroll to defend him on this forum no matter what.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 20 2009, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Come on Jumkie do you really think that we are all stupid here on this forum.Some times it looks like that you are no CS payroll to defend him on this forum no matter what.

No, not everybody.

Excuse me, I need to leave the office, I have a Ducati paycheck I need to cash.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corr @ Aug 19 2009, 11:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now I wonder if Jumkie is going to answer my question (in this thread) or if he is going to ignore it like he did in the other thread!
I'm going to ignore it.


It seems you've missed my point. What is there to discuss?

Lorenzo is very hot property at the moment..........and anything with his name on it will sell. I reckon someone's just made this story up to generate a few extra sales. Was this reported in MCN first by any chance!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corr @ Aug 20 2009, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I hear ya
It's just that I made a comment about JB earlier this week, and I was being sarcastic.

There you go mate! Got bait thrown at… hooked it up (to a fishing pole) and back into the water… Seems to have worked!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 20 2009, 01:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, does 8 championships guarantee him success on another brand/make of bike?
Gaz

So far seems like yes… in 6 different bikes/makes!

And of course one Championship after being late to start developing (Honda did not allow it), the lower (previous season) achievement bike… So Rossi did this already, no doubt!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 20 2009, 01:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In short, history is not on his side whereas by moving to Yamaha he moved from the #1 to the #2 at that time in the cycle, certainly a risk but not a massive one in general terms.
Gaz

Gaz… Rossi did move from ‘#1’ to ‘#2’ as you put it… How many Riders have done that and win Back to Back Championships? And a bit further… How many Riders have done that and win Back to Back ‘Races’? (In different bikes obviously).

So Gaz, I think we could change the name ‘Hayden’ for ‘Melandri’ in a lot of my brother Jumkie’s statements and get a pretty good idea of the hidden assumptions, let me tell you why:

Championships:
Hayden 1 (2006 on a Factory Team).
Melandri 0.

Runner Up:
Hayden 0.
Melandri 1 (2005 on a Satellite Team).

Race Wins:
Hayden 3 (on a Factory Team).
Melandri 5 (on a Satellite Team).

Best position on a Ducati:
Hayden 5th (Laguna Seca 2009, a home track).
Melandri 5th (Shangai 2008, not a home track).

Interest and Help from Sponsors for Marketing and Sales:
Well, USA sells much more bikes than Italy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 20 2009, 04:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not trying to belittle Stoners achivements I'm just calling J. on his new crusade witch is to make '09 look like '07 with roles flipped and to make Hayden look good in the process.
With a little twist of course, he's trying to make Ducati not only look like ..... this year but in fact it has been ..... all the time! Lifting CS's achivments into devine proportions
but at least it makes Hayden look (semi) good, and rossi (kind of) medicore so it's all worth it I guess.

Exactly where I would substitute ‘Hayden’ for ‘Melandri’ just to clear it a bit.

At the end, no matter what, the first 800cc Ducati was the best bike in 2007.

Constructors 2007 Championship:
1.- Ducati 394.
2.- Honda 313 (Without 14 from KR212V).
3.- Yamaha 283 (111 point difference to Ducati).
4.- Suzuki 241 (42 point difference to Yamaha).

Teams 2007 Championship:
1.- Ducati Marlboro 533.
2.- Repsol Honda 369.
3.- Rizla Suzuki 368 (Yes, above Yamaha… no mistake, Suzuki 3rd).
4.- Fiat Yamaha 365 (Oh well, that was what Rossi had then).

Guess what Jumkie; no one can make Ducati look bad in 2007!

http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/...ld+standing.pdf

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 20 2009, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>of course you will continue to think The Ducati was better, though nothing supports your view...

I just gave you numbers hermano!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Aug 20 2009, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I just gave you numbers hermano!
Relevance, a point often missed. Take out Stoner's points and rework your numbers. That is my point, which you have clearly missed...hermano. Stoner made the Ducati, not the other way around.

Here is what I'm saying, take out Rossi's points this year and what do you have? Another yamaha on top. Take out Stoner's points, and what do you have next? Not another Ducati. Relevance!

Now if your gonna have people like inam saying it was about Stoner's Ducati for 07, then it would only seem fair that Rossi's title this and last year should be chalked up to his Yamaha. No? After all, the evidence and numbers that are actually relevant point to this evaluation of the championship.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 20 2009, 01:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Relevance, a point often missed. Take out Stoner's points and rework your numbers. That is my point, which you have clearly missed...hermano. Stoner made the Ducati, not the other way around.

Here is what I'm saying, take out Rossi's points this year and what do you have? Another yamaha on top. Take out Stoner's points, and what do you have next? Not another Ducati. Relevance!

Now if your gonna have people like inam saying it was about Stoner's Ducati for 07, then it would only seem fair that Rossi's title this and last year should be chalked up to his Yamaha. No? After all, the evidence and numbers that are actually relevant point to this aspect of the championship.

But Jumkie, 2007 Repsol Honda and Rizla Suzuki were not ridden by Stonner… meaning 2007 Yamaha was crap and got a 4th place in Team Standings… Also there’s the problem that if we take Ducati out of the picture, what would Stoner have done in 2007?

Yamaha got 4th, not second… Ducati was clearly a better bike in that particular year! There´s the facts you needed…

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Aug 20 2009, 11:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But Jumkie, 2007 Repsol Honda and Rizla Suzuki were not ridden by Stonner… meaning 2007 Yamaha was crap and got a 4th place in Team Standings… Also there’s the problem that if we take Ducati out of the picture, what would Stoner have done in 2007?

Yamaha got 4th, not second… Ducati was clearly a better bike in that particular year! There´s the facts you needed…
No amigo, Stoner, the rider, was clearly so dominant, that your numbers for "team" and "constructors" points must be evaluated more closely. You remind me of people saying Stoner had the "fastest" bike, when IN FACT it was NOT true. Now, the Ducati was many times the "fastest" machine, but that Ducati was rarely ridden by Stoner when he won the race. You see, this is what I mean by closer evaluation. Stoner was miles ahead of his teammate the last three years, this has not been the case for Rossi, whose teammates have been fairly close. Edwards is clearly not in Rossi's league, would you agree? So what do we have to evaluate? I've already several times debunked the idea that the faster bike had an advantage. Now, we have left the idea that the Yamaha was not inferior. But you have several times pointed to the tires as the big problem, right? BTW, Rossi would have beat Peders on points had he not given up in the last round. He missed it by one point, right? Well that doesn't explain Rossi having the 2nd most wins, so what's left--attrition. He would have been 2nd in the championship had he ridden well in the last round. The point is Yamaha fielded a very good machine, good enough to beat all the constructors, but Rossi suffered some problems. This supports the idea, as I contend, that Rossi's bike was as good if not better than the Ducati (I think better). For three years running, Stoner has been the fastest and ONLY Ducati front runner--NOT the case with Yamaha. Relevance.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 20 2009, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie is not far wrong with his statements that Stoner is quicker than Rossi although this year has let Stoner down somewhat. I have said many times that CS is definitely the quickest rider across one lap and generally he is able to produce a blinding lap which is faster than VR, but he is not consistent at stringing together a run of these laps such as VR. It is this aspect taht I think JL needs to look at when making a decision as there is little doubt that the Ducati can be fast, but it does struggle to sustain the lap speed and to me JL will need to modify his style were he to go to Ducati (as CS has this year)
Well, in a way you are right, he is blindingly fast in one lap but what does that do for him? To be faster you simply must be quicker over race distance and of course without falling. As you said it's a matter of stringing the laps together, but then again, maybe his level of concentration is so high on those single sprint laps that it is impossible to string them together. Maybe he is to far out on the edge and risking quite a lot every time he does his quick laps. What ever the reason he can't do it over race distance and single laps doesn't give any points at all.
Too me it looks like he goes pretty far out on the edge and wants and need that position on the list, 1.5 sec in front of the rest. But the true acid test is a last lap, all inn, as we have seen many times from the likes of Rossi, Capirossi, Simonchelli... setting lap record on the last lap often while batteling with other riders. That's how fast those guys can be and untill I see casey beating rossi at that game I can't see how we can judge him faster, he just have the ability/need/will to be fastest in practice and that proves very little.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>The only constant is that we will keep guessing and throwing opinions out there that are not based on much other than thoughts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 20 2009, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well, in a way you are right, he is blindingly fast in one lap but what does that do for him? To be faster you simply must be quicker over race distance and of course without falling. As you said it's a matter of stringing the laps together, but then again, maybe his level of concentration is so high on those single sprint laps that it is impossible to string them together.

Claiming that Stoner is only good for a hot lap is complete rubbish. Only since his mystery illness has this theory proven to be true.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 20 2009, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No amigo, Stoner, the rider, was clearly so dominant, that your numbers for "team" and "constructors" points must be evaluated more closely. You remind me of people saying Stoner had the "fastest" bike, when IN FACT it was NOT true. Now, the Ducati was many times the "fastest" machine, but that Ducati was rarely ridden by Stoner when he won the race. You see, this is what I mean by closer evaluation. Stoner was miles ahead of his teammate the last three years, this has not been the case for Rossi, whose teammates have been fairly close. Edwards is clearly not in Rossi's league, would you agree? So what do we have to evaluate? I've already several times debunked the idea that the faster bike had an advantage. Now, we have left the idea that the Yamaha was not inferior. But you have several times pointed to the tires as the big problem, right? BTW, Rossi would have beat Peders on points had he not given up in the last round. He missed it by one point, right? Well that doesn't explain Rossi having the 2nd most wins, so what's left--attrition. He would have been 2nd in the championship had he ridden well in the last round. The point is Yamaha fielded a very good machine, good enough to beat all the constructors, but Rossi suffered some problems. This supports the idea, as I contend, that Rossi's bike was as good if not better than the Ducati (I think better). For three years running, Stoner has been the fastest and ONLY Ducati front runner--NOT the case with Yamaha. Relevance.

no, stoner did have a much faster bike, watch again china for example, or qatar.. and by the way remind me of just one overtake he made on the brakes in 07. this means all he had to do was wait to pass clearly at the straight line. plus, edwards was not in rossi's league, and the same for capirossi and stoner. it doesnt matter at all, if the ducati cannot be ridden by anyone since stoner rode and still does, faster than everyone. i think though that any of the top four would match stoner's pace, that remains to be proven with lorenzo. back in 07, rossi lost 2nd place due to his bike having mechanical problems, in the last round. despite his injury he could manage a place in the points had the m1 not broken down. yamaha did not field a very good machine in 07, it was a lot slower and it had reliability issues like 06. saying that the 07 m1 was better than the gp7 sounds stupid to me. plus, the gp7 was the only bike both riders won on it. also it was not only yamaha that had problems but michelin too.. rossi was actually overriding his m1 in 07. with the same tyres and horsepower stoner was beaten last year. this year stoner has probably lost again. and lorenzo that has the same bike. for three years stoner has been the only ducati at the top. so does pedrosa for honda. of course this is not the case with yamaha since lorenzo rides for them.

now, in my opinion, rossi deserved all his championships, as hayden, as stoner, as any champion in this sport. because as rossi said, this is racing, and that is its beauty, sometimes you have to fight having an inferior bike, sometimes you gain an advantage having a more powerful engine, or better tyres, or just luck etc. dont expect anyone to feel pity or anything, because everyone is here to win and doesnt give a .... about your problems. so, this conversation about who had the best bike and who didnt is a bit meaningless, history says stoner 07 champion and rossi 08, doesnt matter if we like it or not..

on topic, suppo had said, you got to have an advantage over rossi to beat him, be it tyres, power or anything, you cant beat him on the same equipment. lorenzo is no exception, so he has little chance of achieving that having the same package as rossi. the challenge of matching stoner's speed in the ducati plus getting more money makes that a smart move, i say, if he does go there.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Aug 20 2009, 10:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Claiming that Stoner is only good for a hot lap is complete rubbish. Only since his mystery illness has this theory proven to be true.
Well, everyone else were talking about how fast he is. After '07 he has obviously not been the faster rider, that would have brought him last years title. Being quick and crash still don't make riders fast, and being quick or fast in practice dosen't give any points.
But even before his illness he sometimes had demonstratively few laps in some practice sessions. This was always sessions where he dominated strongly in the start.He often had close to half the laps of riders like Rossi and Hayden. At the time most saw it as arrogance, these days it makes you wander if there were other reasons for his short stints.
Since '07 he has had very few dominating victories and lots of fastest laps. Do the math.