Jorge $13,000,000 contract with Ducati

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 20 2009, 07:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's all the results of a frustrated and bitterly disappointed man. Show some mercy on him
+1

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 20 2009, 07:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I was replying to jumkie's post where he said that only CS can take ducati to top, ok you tell me then Gaz CS has won with ducati in 07 but that doesn't mean that he can won again if you don't wanna assume any thing by previous records so jumkie is completely wrong by saying that as well then.

Nope, Jumkie is correct.

Only CS has taken the Ducati to teh top which means for a fact that as of today Jumkie is 100% correct.

For you to say that Capirex could have were it not for injury is no different to saying that in 2006 CS could have won the WC if he had finished higher in every race and did not crash at all. You no doubt can see the folly in that statement and whilst Capirex was close, he did not get the cigar so we can hypothethise all we want but it will not change the fact.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 20 2009, 07:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, does 8 championships guarantee him success on another brand/make of bike?
Gaz
I wouldn't bet against it Gaz.

To be honest, nor would I bet in his favour and I will start by saying why.

Over the last 30 odd years with very few exceptions the major players in GrandsPrix in teh premier class (500cc/MotoGP) have always been Honda and Yamaha (the exceptions being Suzuki with 2 and Ducati with 1). The battle between Yamaha and Honda has always been cyclical and often one manufacturer would win a championship, then a second and maybe a third before the other woudl get their hand into the picture etc. The cycle would go on between these two but in short they dominated both the championships and races (it actually shows how good Schwantz was when looked at this way).

VR is not stupid and when the time come to prove his point he did not choose Suzuki, nor Ducati but Yamaha because they offered him the best opportunity to showcase his talents and to prove to Honda that it was the rider not the bike (the accepted wisdom and that stated in his autobioghraphy). But still, it was Yamaha who had always been a major player in the Championship and who would no doubt have poured every resource into giving VR what was needed as to get him was a major coup.

The fact remains that VR did not go to any other manufacturer and in reality from all articles never seriously entertained going any place other than Yamaha once he had decided to leave Honda. If you believe that he chose Yamaha because their performances in 2003 and preceding for a few years were ordinary and to improve the VR legend than well and good, but to me Yamaha do not accept mediococrity and after a few years VR recognised that they would move heaven and earth for him. They did and he got what was needed, as Yamaha got what they so desperately wanted.

In short, history is not on his side whereas by moving to Yamaha he moved from the #1 to the #2 at that time in the cycle, certainly a risk but not a massive one in general terms.







Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 20 2009, 07:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In short, history is not on his side whereas by moving to Yamaha he moved from the #1 to the #2 at that time in the cycle, certainly a risk but not a massive one in general terms.

Gaz
I don't know Gaz where you getting your facts and figures about #1 and #2, in 2003 season even 2 ducati's finished ahead of yamaha.C checa was the first yamah rider in standing who finished seventh so i have to say that you are completely wrong to say that they were #2 when Rossi moved to yamaha.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 20 2009, 06:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Over the last 30 odd years with very few exceptions the major players in GrandsPrix in teh premier class (500cc/MotoGP) have always been Honda and Yamaha (the exceptions being Suzuki with 2 and Ducati with 1). The battle between Yamaha and Honda has always been cyclical and often one manufacturer would win a championship, then a second and maybe a third before the other woudl get their hand into the picture etc. The cycle would go on between these two but in short they dominated both the championships and races (it actually shows how good Schwantz was when looked at this way).

VR is not stupid and when the time come to prove his point he did not choose Suzuki, nor Ducati but Yamaha because they offered him the best opportunity to showcase his talents and to prove to Honda that it was the rider not the bike (the accepted wisdom and that stated in his autobioghraphy). But still, it was Yamaha who had always been a major player in the Championship and who would no doubt have poured every resource into giving VR what was needed as to get him was a major coup.

The fact remains that VR did not go to any other manufacturer and in reality from all articles never seriously entertained going any place other than Yamaha once he had decided to leave Honda. If you believe that he chose Yamaha because their performances in 2003 and preceding for a few years were ordinary and to improve the VR legend than well and good, but to me Yamaha do not accept mediococrity and after a few years VR recognised that they would move heaven and earth for him. They did and he got what was needed, as Yamaha got what they so desperately wanted.

In short, history is not on his side whereas by moving to Yamaha he moved from the #1 to the #2 at that time in the cycle, certainly a risk but not a massive one in general terms.

Gaz

Any sane man would do the same. You will work for a 2nd best company when they provide you with better monetary reward, chances for growing and good working environment.

And I'm a fan of Yamaha

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (slug @ Aug 20 2009, 07:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Any sane man would do the same. You will work for a 2nd best company when they provide you with better monetary reward, chances for growing and good working environment.

And I'm a fan of Yamaha


Totally agree, but would say it isn't always about money (although I suspect that it played a part in VR's decision) as often the #2 company offers a greater challenge because they strive to be the #1 and thus will throw better resources at the challenge. It is how they handle being #1 when they achieve it that can decide their success or otherwise and so far, Yamaha have shown themselves very well in this regard.





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 20 2009, 07:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nope, Jumkie is correct.

Only CS has taken the Ducati to teh top which means for a fact that as of today Jumkie is 100% correct.

For you to say that Capirex could have were it not for injury is no different to saying that in 2006 CS could have won the WC if he had finished higher in every race and did not crash at all. You no doubt can see the folly in that statement and whilst Capirex was close, he did not get the cigar so we can hypothethise all we want but it will not change the fact.


Gaz
Gaz you need to go back and read Jumkie's post again or i will quote his post for you:

(The only human capable of taking a Ducati to the top is Casey Stoner (yes, and my opinion includes Lorenzo's teammate). Jumkie

As you can read he is talking about future in his post with refrence to lorenzo's teammate.He is not saying any where that CS has taken Ducati to the top in the past.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 20 2009, 07:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't know Gaz where you getting your facts and figures about #1 and #2, in 2003 season even 2 ducati's finished ahead of yamaha.C checa was the first yamah rider in standing who finished seventh so i have to say that you are completely wrong to say that they were #2 when Rossi moved to yamaha.


Selective quoting Iman, suggest you use the whole information.

History over the last 30 years shows that the two largest most successful playes in GrandsPrix to be Yamaha and Honda - fact.

Thus he moved from the historical #1 to the historical #2 when he moved from Honda to Yamaha.

Now, if you want to say that in 2003 because there were two Ducatis ahead of the Yamah (a correct fact) then Yamaha were the accepted #3 that is fine for 2003 (manufacturers has it 3rd). And by extension I will therefore say that it is therefore an indisputable fact that Yamaha was by far the better bike in 2008 which you have at times argued against (this statement is based on finishing position for riders/manufacturers).

The facts are there, Yamaha and Honda have dominated GrandPrix over the last 30 years and will continue to do so for years to come purely based upon their R&D and racing department resources and the size of their respective organisations. Thus, when Honda is #1 Yamaha are generally speaking #2 and reverse applies.

One year does not make an era.




Oh, and to keep this on topic, Lorenzo is worth whatever people will pay and were it me I would be offering him far more than Yamaha if it mean getting him to my team and if I needed a rider of his race winning stature.







Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 20 2009, 08:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nope, Jumkie is correct.

Only CS has taken the Ducati to teh top which means for a fact that as of today Jumkie is 100% correct.
Come on Gaz. Jumkie talked in present and future, and in present Casey is not even capable of riding the bike, not to mention being the fastest. Winning in '07 has about as much relevance as winning in '06 even if the winner in '06 were on a Honda and '07 was on the "same" ducati as they use now.
So Jumkie was about 0% correct, give or take a percentage or two.
Add to this he uses absolute terms, meaning that not only are CS the only one of those who tried, he is The Only One of all motorcyclists. This is of course at least as speculative as Inam suggesting that Capirex could have won.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>For you to say that Capirex could have were it not for injury is no different to saying that in 2006 CS could have won the WC if he had finished higher in every race and did not crash at all. You no doubt can see the folly in that statement and whilst Capirex was close, he did not get the cigar so we can hypothethise all we want but it will not change the fact.
I would say that looking at the odds prior to Barcelona '06 would have told a different storry.
There is speculation and there is hopless speculation.
And what aboout Jumkie's "Stoner were faster than Rossi" "fact" refering to '08? Did Stoner get the cigar that year?
Inam made a valid point in that others have been fast on the Duc. Excemplified with capirex's excellent performance in '06. That Loris didn't win or could have won the championship is not the point. Capirex won on the Ducati, he won on it in '06 and in '07, when the bike according to J. were as bad or worse than the Suzuki. Capi is on the Suzuki in his second year and he still hasn't won on that bike.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>To be honest, nor would I bet in his favour and I will start by saying why.

Over the last 30 odd years with very few exceptions the major players in GrandsPrix in teh premier class (500cc/MotoGP) have always been Honda and Yamaha (the exceptions being Suzuki with 2 and Ducati with 1). The battle between Yamaha and Honda has always been cyclical and often one manufacturer would win a championship, then a second and maybe a third before the other woudl get their hand into the picture etc. The cycle would go on between these two but in short they dominated both the championships and races (it actually shows how good Schwantz was when looked at this way).

Interesting thoughts, but as sure as history repeats it self, no cycle like that, or any dominating force has lasted for ever.
If I remember correctly Rossi didn't question Ducati's ability but the race team priorities and his didn't really match. Let's pretend they aligned perfectly and Rossi brought with him JB and his mechanics over to Ducati in '04. We will never know, but that could very well have been the end to the "endless" Honda/Yamaha cycle but as it is Rossi made sure to make another turn on the cycle giving you an even better argument next time around and the broken cycle is something we can only hypothesize about now, right?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 20 2009, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Come on Gaz. Jumkie talked in present and future, and in present Casey is not even capable of riding the bike, not to mention being the fastest. Winning in '07 has about as much relevance as winning in '06 even if the winner in '06 were on a Honda and '07 was on the "same" ducati as they use now.
So Jumkie was about 0% correct, give or take a percentage or two.
Add to this he uses absolute terms, meaning that not only are CS the only one of those who tried, he is The Only One of all motorcyclists. This is of course at least as speculative as Inam suggesting that Capirex could have won.

Read it any way, I didn't read it the way you guys have but then my eyes may be different colours to those of yourself as well.

To date, Jumkie is 100% correct if top is World Titles and given Iman's concentration on all things World Titles (he mentiones VR's 8 consistently - not just this thread) then Jumkie remains correct to date. The future cannot be determined yet as the sport evolves.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 20 2009, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would say that looking at the odds prior to Barcelona '06 would have told a different storry.
There is speculation and there is hopless speculation.
And what aboout Jumkie's "Stoner were faster than Rossi" "fact" refering to '08? Did Stoner get the cigar that year?
Inam made a valid point in that others have been fast on the Duc. Excemplified with capirex's excellent performance in '06. That Loris didn't win or could have won the championship is not the point. Capirex won on the Ducati, he won on it in '06 and in '07, when the bike according to J. were as bad or worse than the Suzuki. Capi is on the Suzuki in his second year and he still hasn't won on that bike.

No doubt Capirex put in some great performances in his tenure on Ducati and personally I felt it disappointing that he was forced out in 2008.

Again, define top before we can discuss but people define top as championships do they not and did Capirex with a championship?

If top is race wins than Vermuelen has been more successful than Capirex and/or Hopkins on the Suzuki yet people argue differently.





<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 20 2009, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting thoughts, but as sure as history repeats it self, no cycle like that, or any dominating force has lasted for ever.
If I remember correctly Rossi didn't question Ducati's ability but the race team priorities and his didn't really match. Let's pretend they aligned perfectly and Rossi brought with him JB and his mechanics over to Ducati in '04. We will never know, but that could very well have been the end to the "endless" Honda/Yamaha cycle but as it is Rossi made sure to make another turn on the cycle giving you an even better argument next time around and the broken cycle is something we can only hypothesize about now, right?

Rossi has stated (as reported) that Ducati operate the same as Honda where the bike is felt to be responsible (paraphrasing) and as such he did not want to go in that direction as he felt that he would not be 'listened' to in terms of requirements, improvements etc. Additionally I seem to recall that Ducati were not conducive to VR bringing his crew whereas Yamaha said yes.

The facts remain that there is a cycle in GrandsPrix that involves Yamaha/Honda with the odd interloper (Ducati/Suzuki) and in it's current format this won't change due to dollars and near limitless budgets. For Ducati/Suzuki to win a race is extrordinary and to win a title beyond belief in this era where those with the most money generally win.






Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 20 2009, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Read it any way, I didn't read it the way you guys have but then my eyes may be different colours to those of yourself as well.

To date, Jumkie is 100% correct if top is World Titles and given Iman's concentration on all things World Titles (he mentiones VR's 8 consistently - not just this thread) then Jumkie remains correct to date. The future cannot be determined yet as the sport evolves.

I give up Gaz. I've picked Jumkie's sentence to pieces to show that there is now way there is even the tiniest shred of truth in what he said. It's not even close. If you prefer to read what he said differently please refrain from making comments about colored glases, because they are on you this time.

I'm not trying to belittle Stoners achivements I'm just calling J. on his new crusade witch is to make '09 look like '07 with roles flipped and to make Hayden look good in the process.
With a little twist of course, he's trying to make Ducati not only look like ..... this year but in fact it has been ..... all the time! Lifting CS's achivments into devine proportions
but at least it makes Hayden look (semi) good, and rossi (kind of) medicore so it's all worth it I guess.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>If top is race wins than Vermuelen has been more successful than Capirex and/or Hopkins on the Suzuki yet people argue differently.
Well, talking hard numbers as you love to do there is no doubt that Vermulen has been more successful. That is very different from what status is today. Has been champion, has been successful, similar and very different from is champion and is successful (present) get it? That's why Vermulen is leaving Suzuki and why there is no substance what so ever, to Jumkie's claim about Stoner.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Rossi has stated (as reported) that Ducati operate the same as Honda where the bike is felt to be responsible (paraphrasing) and as such he did not want to go in that direction as he felt that he would not be 'listened' to in terms of requirements, improvements etc. Additionally I seem to recall that Ducati were not conducive to VR bringing his crew whereas Yamaha said yes.

The facts remain that there is a cycle in GrandsPrix that involves Yamaha/Honda with the odd interloper (Ducati/Suzuki) and in it's current format this won't change due to dollars and near limitless budgets. For Ducati/Suzuki to win a race is extrordinary and to win a title beyond belief in this era where those with the most money generally win.
No argues there really. My point was only that "the only thing constant, is that nothing is constant". Looking back with all sorts of speculation and if's, that time in 2004 could have been a turning point where Rossi and Ducati could have changed history. I have no belief in Lorenzo and that he would do that now.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 20 2009, 10:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I give up Gaz. I've picked Jumkie's sentence to pieces to show that there is now way there is even the tiniest shred of truth in what he said. It's not even close. If you prefer to read what he said differently please refrain from making comments about colored glases, because they are on you this time.

Mate, absolutely but my point is that I did not read it the way you guys have and whether that is because of my blindness or your guys reading stuff into it, that doesn't matter. I read it as being to date and what has happenned, but that is not the first time I have read statements different to others nor will it be the last (and neither does it mean I read it right).

Alls good.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 20 2009, 10:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not trying to belittle Stoners achivements I'm just calling J. on his new crusade witch is to make '09 look like '07 with roles flipped and to make Hayden look good in the process.
With a little twist of course, he's trying to make Ducati not only look like ..... this year but in fact it has been ..... all the time! Lifting CS's achivments into devine proportions
but at least it makes Hayden look (semi) good, and rossi (kind of) medicore so it's all worth it I guess.

To be fair (here we go again), what Jumkie is saying is that CS' 2007 achievement needs to be looked at in the wider scheme of how the other Ducati's have actually gone during the 800cc era, and when one looks at that then CS' is the difference (well, that is my take).

Is the Ducati ..... this year is an interesting question and maybe more a conundrum to be honest as it has looked good at times and has looked like a semi-trailer at other times.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 20 2009, 10:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well, talking hard numbers as you love to do there is no doubt that Vermulen has been more successful. That is very different from what status is today. Has been champion, has been successful, similar and very different from is champion and is successful (present) get it? That's why Vermulen is leaving Suzuki and why there is no substance what so ever, to Jumkie's claim about Stoner.

Vermuelen, what can I say?

I genuinely like the guy and rate him highly, but he has spent to long on a machine that is not there and has suffered as a result (in terms of results/career as I do believe that he had the required skills etc).

Jumkie is not far wrong with his statements that Stoner is quicker than Rossi although this year has let Stoner down somewhat. I have said many times that CS is definitely the quickest rider across one lap and generally he is able to produce a blinding lap which is faster than VR, but he is not consistent at stringing together a run of these laps such as VR. It is this aspect taht I think JL needs to look at when making a decision as there is little doubt that the Ducati can be fast, but it does struggle to sustain the lap speed and to me JL will need to modify his style were he to go to Ducati (as CS has this year)


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 20 2009, 10:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No argues there really. My point was only that "the only thing constant, is that nothing is constant". Looking back with all sorts of speculation and if's, that time in 2004 could have been a turning point where Rossi and Ducati could have changed history. I have no belief in Lorenzo and that he would do that now.

Hypotheticals are fun to play but sadly we will never know.

Even if VR was to go to Ducati in 2011, we will never know if he could have ridden the 2007/8/9 incarnations of that bike, just as should CS/NH etc got to Yamaha, we will not know of their ability on previous models.

The only constant is that we will keep guessing and throwing opinions out there that are not based on much other than thoughts.







Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Aug 20 2009, 01:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Cutting costs is the latest strike of genius by Dorna, after the 800cc and 21 liters rule meant to cut speed The results are the same.

They managed to actually increase the costs with the insane engine limitation rule--pistons of the new engines are said to cost now 10 times the 'old' pistons, and a new high tech race is well under way to build the engine that can last the most. So they'll use 5 engines instead of maybe 8, at 10 times the cost. Well done...

They really want to cut costs? It would be much more effective to keep some form of control on the riders' market.
i agree 100%

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 20 2009, 03:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lorenzo is worth it, however, if he intends to win a MotoGP world title, he will sign with factory Yamaha.

The only human capable of taking a Ducati to the top is Casey Stoner (yes, and my opinion includes Lorenzo's teammate).
Only a fool would bet against the doctor. Seem to remember people saying similar things about the yam when rossi was riding for honda.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 20 2009, 06:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh, I stand corrected, Stoner is .....

All I need to know about Rossi's titles are that minus the special tires, he couldn't win one. ie 07. The year they had the same tires, Stoner was faster than him the entire season, fact. Oh, and this year, haha, Yamaha, enuf said. Smoke that.

You children don't understand MotoGP. You think he's the greatest ever, but don't realize the machine/tires make the better riders look like geniuses. Slap Rossi on a Suzuki, Kawasaki, or even worse, a Ducati, and you'd see just how great he is. Which year on those other brands would he have delivered? Ah, prototype racing, making fools out of ignorant people for years!
No special tyres in 08 mate, and guess who won that championship.

Check the exhaust aint leaking on your car mate, seems your brain may be affected by carbon monoxide or something

just had a thought. maybe hayden won his 06 championship on special tyres and this is why he now runs mid pack ??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Aug 20 2009, 06:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Only a fool would bet against the doctor. Seem to remember people saying similar things about the yam when Rossi was riding for Honda.
BINGO!

I think spies might be good on that bike as well. Thats the only bike his weight may be an advantage. He might be able to keep the duke from have epileptic seizures out of the corners. I think those two would have been 13 mil well spent, but not lolo. He is going to eat .... more than rdp and mccoy combined on that bike. 8/20/2009 the day lorenzo's career die, but its all good his pocket will be fat.

Now on to who is out at ducati. I just can't see jorge going from Rossi shadow into Stoners. I dont think he would have accepted the deal if cs is staying. And cs fan dream on, there is no ....... way he is going to ride for yamaha.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Aug 20 2009, 09:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>BINGO!


Now on to who is out at ducati. I just can't see jorge going from Rossi shadow into Stoners. I dont think he would have accepted the deal if cs is staying. And cs fan dream on, there is no ....... way he is going to ride for yamaha.

Christ! You almost sound like yer saying something sensible for once. Except - it's
a given that Lorenzo would have stayed at Yamaha 2nd to Rossi if the money was
right. Why would it be any different at Ducati?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Aug 20 2009, 08:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Christ! You almost sound like yer saying something sensible for once. Except - it's
a given that Lorenzo would have stayed at Yamaha 2nd to Rossi if the money was
right. Why would it be any different at Ducati?
agreed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 19 2009, 11:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why you think stoner is so special and what acutally he has achieved in 8 years for you to think that he is the only person to take ducati to top( oh! sorry jumkie my bad he has actually won one championship in 8 years not bad going, is it compare to lorenzo's teammate who got 8 championships in 12 years).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 20 2009, 01:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He is out trolling again, as he has been a lot lately. Calling it "Having some fun with the children" or something similar no doubt.
But posts like the one above, well thought out and clearly not trolling, right Babel? You're a smart member, why get in on a trolling debate that has no clear winner or loser?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 20 2009, 01:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...

Gaz
The voice of reason. Thank you Gaz.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Aug 20 2009, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But posts like the one above, well thought out and clearly not trolling, right Babel? You're a smart member, why get in on a trolling debate that has no clear winner or loser?


The voice of reason. Thank you Gaz.
Take off your glasses Austin and see jumkie's post where he dismissed every human being on this planet to take ducati to the top expect one and then tell me who is trolling.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 20 2009, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Take off your glasses Austin and see jumkie's post where he dismissed every human being on this planet to take ducati to the top expect one and then tell me who is trolling.


Casey Stoner IS the only human being on the planet to take the Ducati to consistent success in the 800cc era.