Jeremy Burgess Interview

Mental Anarchist said:

J4rn0 how do you think Ducati will go in regards to the path they are well down the road on with their carbon fibre framed road bikes? If they were to move away from CF and integrated airbox chassis because it has proved ineffective and impossible to develop by someone like JB and Rossi then it would be difficult for their new road bikes to not have a perception of being ineffective before a wheel is even turned and the media will eat that up.



Maybe they will come out with a twin spar CF frame without the engine as a stressed member. At least then their PR Spin that it is merely an evolution rather than a binning of all the work done in the last 3-5 years could seem believable. I am sure with a longer section to work with they would be able to design in flex with more consistency.







I will be waiting on the answer as well.

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Have you seen any CF chassis bikes in Ducatis' catalog? Not yet. Theres' plenty of time...

Frizzle said:

So you don't think that Ducati are under pressure from the yellow army to provide Vale with a winning bike?

The fact that they are prepared to turn their bike upside down & change it's dna when they have not previously, points to something different.

Ducati had fundamental flaws last year as well not just this year. But they didn't vow to do what they are vowing to do right now.

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That may be the perception of the "yellow army", but fans can be kept happy with the usual headlines and Ducati meanwhile will concentrate on reality, not on the fans' expectations. Their loyalities will last at least one year. 2012 is the appointment that Ducati must not miss.

Lot's of sensible posts in this thread (admittedly interrupted from time to time by people who sound like they have less hair on their testicles than fingers on their hands)...

Anyway, I would say that some of these arguably opposing views about the motives and actions of Ducati are, according to me, perfectly complementary once you drop the assumption that Ducati has been acting in accordance with a coherent and thought out plan all this time. This, I think, is just not the case.



When Ducati hired Rossi, I am pretty sure that they were a) convinced the bike was competitive enough, b ) wanted Rossi because they believed he could win races for them. At this stage, redesigning the bike was probably not even considered.



When it became clear that Burgess would follow Rossi, Ducati was probably willing to let him have some say in the development of the gp12, as long as it was along the lines of their own design philosophy.



Then came the Valencia test. Stoner hops on the Honda and is fast from the word go. Rossi hops on the Ducati and looks about as competitive Talmasci did in Motogp. A great truth was revealed. Or rather, what a lot of people outside of Ducati already knew, and I'm guessing some on the inside knew even better but would not speak off, now became painfully obvious. That bike was not competitive in the hands of anyone except Stoner.



So what are Ducati's targets now? What do they want, how are they going to do it and who is going to help them? I believe they do not know this themselves. I believe their organization is divided. I believe that is why we are here arguing endlessly about Ducati goals and motives, and finding evidence for each plausible view.



The problems they face, as I see them:



Development of the gp11 vs development of the gp12. Originally, I think they wanted to focus on next years bike and leave the gp11 largely unaltered, relying on Rossi's skill to get the results anyway. Evidently, this is no longer an option. However, the more they invest into the gp11, the less they can invest into the gp12. Had they hired Lorenzo or Pedrosa, or had they been able to keep Stoner, it would have been easier, they could have just accepted mid-pack results for one season in exchange for a 2007 repeat in 2012. Unfortunately, a year of mid-pack results for Rossi will be perceived by many as unacceptable.

I'm not so sure Ducati has taken a definitive decision on this matter yet.



Character vs results. I don't think Ducati ever entertained the idea of radically departing from their design philosophy until it became obvious that they couldn't be competitive without Stoner. Somewhere in Bologna, I'm sure there is a prototype 1000cc Motogp bike, with a carbon fibre frame and a L 4 desmo engine (possibly a V4, depending on their new superbike). Just think about how much Ducati have invested into their brand identity, their unique engineering. It is the sole reason they can sell their expensive bikes. What if they are ready to launch their new generation of superbikes, with a carbon fibre frame instead of a trellies frame? It makes ditching the carbon fibre frame on their Motogp bike rather problematic, right?

I think they haven't reached a decision on this matter either.



Finally, Rossi. I am not convinced everybody at Ducati, especially within the race team, was all that excited about Rossi joining their team. Just a gut feeling, of course. But I wager there are a few people there who had rather continued to work with Stoner. And if that's the case, it will create some friction.



All in all, I think Ducati don't internally agree about their priories and are torn about their goals. In Holland, we'd say not all there noses are pointing in the same direction, and they are acting like headless chickens. And it's difficult to read the strategic behaviour of a headless chicken.



Disclaimer: Think I'm full of .... and want to reply? Here's a link http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html If you could try to avoid these, I am happy to reply.

Damn, I just realize that I'm starting to equal Jumkie in post lentgh. There is a joke in there somewhere, I just know it.

BarryMachine said:

Oh wah wah wah!! thats all we get from you Rob and Talpa!





are you CSCVRogAW?

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Burgess was talking about an individual riders ideal setup, he wasn't talking about turning the Desmosedici into some God bike.



He said he sees thing 'wobbling around', and I'm pretty sure he didn't want to see Rossi crashing every three races like Stoner was last season.

McKneZ said:

Ducati is spending for Rossi 70,100,150% or even more than they have spend for Stoner. BUT they will earn 150,200,250% or even more if Rossi succeeded. Im talking long term. So its a great business...







Thats just imo...just to think about it.

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May I ask where you got these figures? Or is it just your opinion and the figures a guess?

J4rn0 said:

The move to hire Lorenzo was a big mistake on the part of Ducati, more than anything else. I do not think it was part of a plan, and it is probably the one thing that cost them Stoner.



They would have gone about laying new foundations for their MotoGP project anyway, as it had become clear that the current bike could not keep up with the competition much longer and was too dependent on the peculiar skills of one rider -- it was going to happen with Stoner, with Lorenzo or with anybody else. Of course the opportunity to hire Rossi and JB was a godsend in that perspective.



Those who deny that this is Ducati's priority and insist that all their efforts are just to please Rossi, are simply busy with their usual anti-Rossi propaganda.

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J4rno, you are by far the most sensible Bopper (as say that affectionately). You've been consistently mistaken regarding your assessment of the new efforts at Ducati. Here you are telling us Ducati was going to lay out a new plan anyway, so the big changes were in the pipe. Yet over the winter, you insisted that Ducati had not and WOULD not change much, or as you said, only set up changes would be the order of the day. Now we hear Burgess, the man who is tasked to the project say, in rather dramatic terms, he has a blank check to change the direction of the project. In other words, sky (the direction of heaven) is the limit. How does this jive with the "anti-Rossi" propaganda you speak of? What changed? Only one thing--the signing of Rossi! Help me understand how exactly is this "anti-Rossi" propaganda by merely pointing this out? You see J4rno, I like exchanging with you because you are sane (a rarity among Boppers). But c'mon brotha, do you really think they would have gone this extreme (at least in message) if Rossi would have been leading and eventually coming 2nd on the Ducat like Stoner did at Valencia? Are we to believe these changes would would have taken been ordered had Stoner been kept and podiumed at Qatar? Would the message have been, "We must change for Stoner to continue to be Stoner?" Are we to believe that these changes are NOT intended to help Rossi?

michaelm said:

I am quite happy to believe things have developed as events have progressed, there have been all kinds of rumours concerning which you are likely better informed than most, even that carmelo played golf with the guys who own ducati and convinced them that motogp rather than wsbk should be their focus with a premium product like ducati

. Ducati are a small concern compared to the japanese companies with I think variable profitability and even ownership over the years, and the operation of ducati corse is very dependent on sponsorship which is presumably at least partially dependent on results. I could actually see ducati's point of view when stoner was ill, I just despise marlboro and found their representative who dealt with motogp in 2009 particularly odious.



It actually goes against the grain for me to be supporting honda this year having always loved ducatis and supported ducati as a default position, and particularly keenly when bayliss and stoner were involved. Good luck to them if they can parlay the financial opportunities afforded by valentino joining them, and the expertise he and burgess offer, into something to help them long term. I do think frizzle is correct that they are under the pump though, and have more or less bet the farm on valentino, but on previous form the odds are probably better than with many financial endeavours, and they had also cut their other alternatives considerably as you may be implying, given that lorenzo was never likely to go with them and basically probably used their approach as a bargaining chip with yamaha.

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Totally agree, things changed as events developed. Melandri never thought he would struggle as bad as he did. He even said so himself in a very candid interview, admitting that he was mistaken, that he thought seeing Stoner on the 07 bike would be a cake walk for him in 08. Then reality set in. We all held our breath when Nicky moved to Ducati, and for many of us, disappointment set in 09 (despite several bad luck incidents). We had high hopes, and I don't Nicky thought he would struggle as much as Melandri. Enter Rossi, again, high hopes, but still those who observed Ducati's new there was cause for concern. Perhaps this was overshadowed by some who believed (rightly or wrongly) that Rossi would match Stoner. Then reality set in. If we are to believe J4rno, the current Ducati reaction is just ongoing normal mundane development with no sense of urgency. The truth is, this urgency is because of the pressure of having a "legend" on your bike means this is a must win scenario for the manufacture (because of perception that the rider is not the problem in this case, regardless of how that may be right or wrong).



Also, I keep hearing this idea that Ducati, being so tiny compared to Jap giants, is somehow at a disadvantage. First of all, all the racing endeavors are a separate entity to the company proper. In fact, Ducati Corse is a separate company. To put their "racing" effort verses the manufacture "production" in perspective, Suzuki is much bigger a manufacture than Ducati, while Ducati has 5 bikes in GP, Suzuki has 1. As you can see, the racing endeavor is what people should focus on when comparing any magnitude of activity toward GP. The fact is Ducati as a whole race. (Or as I heard it described before, the Italian company is in business to race). Another example is Ferrari verses Toyota or Honda. Ferrari's business IS racing, while they produce high end cars for a small number of customers. Where as the Japanese companies as part of their business go racing. Do you see the difference (yes, I know you do, but I'm writing this for the benefit of those who don't).









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Incidentally Mike, you touched again on a mild consternation of mine, that is, having to support Ducati while they assign a back seat to my favorite rider. The back seat that Honda gave Nicky made me dislike the brand and hoped they would never have success, at very least while they employed the Puig-Pedro tandem. Even when Nicky was with Honda, I disliked having to buy anything Honda related, but rather solely Nicky related (but as you can imagine that was near impossible since everything had a big Honda Repsol stamp on it). Its the same again, I love Ducati, but resentment is building that Rossi & co have overwhelming influence that has again eclipsed the integrity of Nicky's competitive chances for success.

how did this whole thing come about regarding hayden being a "test rider"?

Jumkie said:

J4rno, you are by far the most sensible Bopper (as say that affectionately). You've been consistently mistaken regarding your assessment of the new efforts at Ducati. Here you are telling us Ducati was going to lay out a new plan anyway, so the big changes were in the pipe. Yet over the winter, you insisted that Ducati had not and WOULD not change much, or as you said, only set up changes would be the order of the day. Now we hear Burgess, the man who is tasked to the project say, in rather dramatic terms, he has a blank check to change the direction of the project. In other words, sky (the direction of heaven) is the limit. How does this jive with the "anti-Rossi" propaganda you speak of? What changed? Only one thing--the signing of Rossi! Help me understand how exactly is this "anti-Rossi" propaganda by merely pointing this out? You see J4rno, I like exchanging with you because you are sane (a rarity among Boppers). But c'mon brotha, do you really think they would have gone this extreme (at least in message) if Rossi would have been leading and eventually coming 2nd on the Ducat like Stoner did at Valencia? Are we to believe these changes would would have taken been ordered had Stoner been kept and podiumed at Qatar? Would the message have been, "We must change for Stoner to continue to be Stoner?" Are we to believe that these changes are NOT intended to help Rossi?

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For a change this discussion has been very interesting.

Jumkie is spot on.

J4rn0 you were saying earlier in the year that Ducati will only change setup etc & would not be making drastic changes to the bike to accommodate Rossi.I don't think that is the plan to be honest.

Tekniqs said:

how did this whole thing come about regarding hayden being a "test rider"?

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It was magic buddy.

Jumkie said:

J4rno, you are by far the most sensible Bopper (as say that affectionately). You've been consistently mistaken regarding your assessment of the new efforts at Ducati. Here you are telling us Ducati was going to lay out a new plan anyway, so the big changes were in the pipe. Yet over the winter, you insisted that Ducati had not and WOULD not change much, or as you said, only set up changes would be the order of the day. Now we hear Burgess, the man who is tasked to the project say, in rather dramatic terms, he has a blank check to change the direction of the project. In other words, sky (the direction of heaven) is the limit. How does this jive with the "anti-Rossi" propaganda you speak of? What changed? Only one thing--the signing of Rossi! Help me understand how exactly is this "anti-Rossi" propaganda by merely pointing this out? You see J4rno, I like exchanging with you because you are sane (a rarity among Boppers). But c'mon brotha, do you really think they would have gone this extreme (at least in message) if Rossi would have been leading and eventually coming 2nd on the Ducat like Stoner did at Valencia? Are we to believe these changes would would have taken been ordered had Stoner been kept and podiumed at Qatar? Would the message have been, "We must change for Stoner to continue to be Stoner?" Are we to believe that these changes are NOT intended to help Rossi?

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You are basing this solely on the assumption that Ducati had clear direction when Stoner was there, do you have proof that this is the case......? I'm sorry but the fact is, as yet, Stoner has no record of developing a consistent title winning motogp bike.



Do companies or banks give large chunks of cash to people with no business plan or strategy and without solid figures backing them? Well most don't outside the US anyway.......



When Ducati signed Rossi, the GOAT and most popular rider of the modern age, did you think they would not help him? Just take the bike that they and Stoner had successfully developed into a flawed machine and ride it



The point that most of the Anti-Rossi camp, of which exists, to deny this as above-especially being the spearhead/originator, only makes you look completely ridiculous.....I digress......anyhow the point that the Anti-Rossi camp fail to address time and time again is that Stoner was not successful on the 2010 Ducati, he finished a very distant 4th, nor was he successful on the 2009 Ducati, nor was he successful on the 2008 Ducati despite regularly being the fastest. Knowing all this, yet conveniently not admitting it, at what point do you think that Rossi would just get on a ride it flat out in a 'test' with surgery scheduled the following day....?



Ducati already moved heaven and earth for Stoner and Hayden with the introduction of the big-bang engine, and several complete front end re-designs/builds with ohilins, how many lira's do you think this cost? I would say plenty......



Ducati wanted a serious change, as did Stoner, this is clear. Both camps are very happy with their new arrangements, this only means one thing, that both had exhausted their options with each other trying to be consistent, which never happened.



You are using Burgess's comment in an attempt to prop your argument that Rossi and JB are being given extraordinary privileges to try to extract an unfair advantage. An argument which you brought about even before the signing was announced, something which hasn't yet happened despite your predictions that Ducati would move Heaven and Earth in the off-season, yet they still haven't, in fact they've done less than they did in last years pre-season!!!

This only proves that they have clear direction and are patiently waiting for crucial race data before making serious changes, this is how VR and Burgess have always worked. I remember clearly how many were also rubbishing their move to Bridgestone after Qatar 2008 when Jorge smacked them in his first race with Michies, including Gavin Emmett in live commentary.



One could say that at present the Ducati is one of the least modified of the top bikes from last season at Present, especially considering Honda's game changing development. Directly opposing your theories....not the first time your theories have been debunked.



So in fact, the 'Extreme' measures you keep mentioning, and falsely accusing Ducati of implementing, have actually being taken by 'another' manufacturer. I would love to see Honda's budgets for this year........

Talpa said:

You are basing this solely on the assumption that Ducati had clear direction when Stoner was there, do you have proof that this is the case......? I'm sorry but the fact is, as yet, Stoner has no record of developing a consistent title winning motogp bike.

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Typical Talpa start it off with absolute concoction and fairytale ...... then take it downhill from there





Ask yourself .......... which one rider has won the most races on an 800cc GP bike ........ and what bike did he do this on?





Now thinking how the hell can someone come out with such an idiotic statement as you have?



Answer ........ I think that you must really believe that Stoner's success should be measured bu how well he can "develop" a bike for Rossi





Fruitcake





I didn't read past the first paragraph because it was pure concocted flasehood ( lie ), hence the rest of your ramble must be superfluous.

Ozbiker13 said:

Guys guys guys...I can't believe all the theories you have put forward as to why Rossi and Ducati are together. Its as obvious as the nose on my face (which is big) The only reason that Rossi went to Ducati was because of his humungus ego...the guy wanted to be the first rider in MotoGp to win on 3 different make bikes and the fact that Ducati was an Italian bike was icing on the cake. The only fly in the ointment was that Rossi isn't as good as his ego thinks he is and he now realises that he probably won't win another championship. A bit of inside information that didn't get leaked to the press....JB tried to talk Rossi out of joining Ducati...he knew what he was getting into, why do you think he waited so long before he announced his decision, and they sweetened his pot by heaps.

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stiefel said:

Lot's of sensible posts in this thread (admittedly interrupted from time to time by people who sound like they have less hair on their testicles than fingers on their hands)...

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BarryMachine said:

Typical Talpa

start it off with absolute concoction and fairytale ...... then take it downhill from there

Ask yourself .......... which one rider has won the most races on an 800cc GP bike ........ and what bike did he do this on?

Now thinking how the hell can someone come out with such an idiotic statement as you have?



Answer ........ I think that you must really believe that Stoner's success should be measured bu how well he can "develop" a bike for Rossi

Fruitcake

I didn't read past the first paragraph because it was pure concocted flasehood ( lie ), hence the rest of your ramble must be superfluous.

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in 4 years how many titles did he win on it?

Talpa said:

in 4 years how many titles did he win on it?

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One less than Rossi did , and Rossi was riding what is unanimously considered the best bike of the era.

Tekniqs said:

how did this whole thing come about regarding hayden being a "test rider"?

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Have a wild guess.



I'm pretty sure Hayden did a lot development work when Stoner was at Ducati because of his reputation as a strong development rider, and Stoner's perceived shortcomings.



I guess in the end they both flopped.

povol said:

One less than Rossi did , and Rossi was riding what is unanimously considered the best bike of the era.

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And he won several races less to do so





800cc era CS 24 VR 21



CS v's VR in MGP CS 24 VR 26 ( but this includes Stoners Rookie year )





...... and Rossi has had:



less skill at actual riding than Stoner



JB



the best bike on the grid



The most sophisticated electronics



the best tyres



Dorna backing ( blind eye to the rules )



etc. etc. etc.





Oh and Rossi has Uccio!!

BarryMachine said:

And he won several races less to do so

800cc era CS 24 VR 21



CS v's VR in MGP CS 24 VR 26 ( but this includes Stoners Rookie year

)





...... and Rossi has had:



less skill at actual riding than Stoner



JB



the best bike on the grid



The most sophisticated electronics



the best tyres



Dorna backing ( blind eye to the rules )



etc. etc. etc.





Oh and Rossi has Uccio!!

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Number of points would probably show a greater disparity (aswell as being a truer measure).