Jeremy Burgess Interview

michaelm said:

I have been arguing strenuously about assumptions that it is certain rossi/jb will fix the ducati, but I think the opposite proposition also applies in that they are excellent developers and haven't as yet definitively "not fixed" it either.



I don't know how set the design of the 2012 ducati is, but I vaguely recall someone posting something suggesting it was well in train. I think it is pretty well a given that it will have a powerful engine whatever the configuration, but perhaps the current strenuous efforts are aimed at establishing whether the traditional and current ducati design directions are viable; if the L4 engine and current chassis can't be made to work in the 800cc formula ( in terms of the bike being nimble where the L4 is concerned) they are unlikely to work in the new formula.

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In one sense - I expect it will be a long season for Rossi. In the other sense, for the engineers in Bologna - with their sites set on 2012

- it's all going to go by much too quickly.

notabikerther4useless said:

J4rno, I'm curious.



How did you (and almost everyone else, it seems), come to the conclusion that Rossi "wasn't hired to ride the Ducati like Stoner"?



Why the hell not? He's getting paid megabucks to ride the thing, compared to Stoner. Isn't it reasonable to expect him to ride it at least somewhat like Stoner? How about riding it like Stoner, but a bit better?



And I don't buy the "Ducati wants to fix the bike for all their riders" argument. Ducati would be ecstatic if Rossi performed like Stoner on their bike - ie slaughtering all other Ducati riders. If ever there was a year that Ducati would be prepared to prefer one rider above all others, it is this year.



Rossi and Burgess don't design bikes. I doubt they were hired with any real intent to have them oversee a radical redesign of the Duc. Remember all that talk by Rossi and Burgess about how the Ducati was a good bike? It just needed a little tweaking, they said.



The 800cc will exist for one season. He and Burgess should accept what they've got and get on with it.



edit: In summary, Ducati hired Rossi to win on their bike. As often as he can. Preferably a bit more than Stoner did. They couldn't give a stuff about everyone else, as long as the goat did his job of riding fast. That's all they wanted when they hired him.

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What Ducati wants is to regain the world title. This would be difficult with the current design (even Stoner was 4th in last 2 years with as many falls as wins). So it became obvious that the bike needed to change and riding around the problem isn't going to significantly change the situation.



Ducati hired Rossi to win championsips and not just individual races. That needs a good base which Ducati 2009 and 2010 didn't have.

Burky said:

I'm not convinced by the arguement saying that Ducati want to make the bike like a Yamaha, or a Honda.... rideable, just to suit Valentino! Bike manufacturers are in Moto GP to sell bikes, lets be blunt, not to 'please' Moto GP riders. There are factors other than which bike won the World Title that sell bikes. When the consumer hears the words Ducati and Yamaha, it evokes two different mind sets, and maybe the consumer would rather pretend he has a big knob in black leathers than look cool in colourful leathers with a ... on his back!!!!!!

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There is a difference in perception of the masses (motorcyle buying masses) in the below 2 cases



Case 1: Rider X is decimating the field where as all others (including some illustrious riders) comes in the lower half of finishing order. The crowds perception - Rider X is a demon rider. He is winning inspite of the bike. Bike is POS

Case 2: Both Rider Y and Rider Z of factory bikes finish regularly on podium with even satellite riders consistently in top8. Crowds perception - Though Riders Y and Z are good, the bike is form a different Planet.



The difference - In case1, the manufacturer got slagged even though they were winning some decent amount of races. In case2, the manufacturer is given the credit for the wins.

So having a bike that works well for most of the riders will help Ducati overcome the negative publicity (that Ducati MotoGp bike is POS) they got from Casey's dominance of his teammates and may be can translate to better SBK sales?

Renjith said:

So having a bike that works well for most of the riders will help Ducati overcome the negative publicity (that Ducati MotoGp bike is POS) they got from Casey's dominance of his teammates and may be can translate to better SBK sales?

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What if all riders perform poorly, as they are at present? How long will the Rossi fans put up with it, till Ducati bears the brunt of Rossi fan hate?

BarryMachine said:

What if all riders perform poorly, as they are at present? How long will the Rossi fans put up with it, till Ducati bears the brunt of Rossi fan hate?

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If a proven rider like Rossi cannot win races/ championships on Ducati, that further affects their image (or whatever is left). But maybe, they are more confident than fans about Rossi/JB and Ducati engineers being able to change the bike for good.



EDIT:

I don't think they have made any significant changes as yet. According to the reports, Rossi & JB were concentrating on finding a base setup + rider postioning and the changes they requested would be tested in Estoril Test

notabikerther4useless said:

J4rno, I'm curious.



How did you (and almost everyone else, it seems), come to the conclusion that Rossi "wasn't hired to ride the Ducati like Stoner"?



Why the hell not? He's getting paid megabucks to ride the thing, compared to Stoner. Isn't it reasonable to expect him to ride it at least somewhat like Stoner? How about riding it like Stoner, but a bit better?



And I don't buy the "Ducati wants to fix the bike for all their riders" argument. Ducati would be ecstatic if Rossi performed like Stoner on their bike - ie slaughtering all other Ducati riders. If ever there was a year that Ducati would be prepared to prefer one rider above all others, it is this year.



Rossi and Burgess don't design bikes. I doubt they were hired with any real intent to have them oversee a radical redesign of the Duc. Remember all that talk by Rossi and Burgess about how the Ducati was a good bike? It just needed a little tweaking, they said.



The 800cc will exist for one season. He and Burgess should accept what they've got and get on with it.



edit: In summary, Ducati hired Rossi to win on their bike. As often as he can. Preferably a bit more than Stoner did. They couldn't give a stuff about everyone else, as long as the goat did his job of riding fast. That's all they wanted when they hired him.

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This was an intellegent intelligent post.



I think the idea that Rossi was hired to make everybody else's Ducati better was fabricated out of thin air. But not without some reaching correlation. When Rossi announced his move to Ducati, there was a lag time before Burgess said he would join him. It was one of the best-kept secrets, and it provided a bit of a collective holding of breath. Why? Well because Burgess is rightly seen as a fixer of problems communicated by Rossi. He even sent out the message to the world that if given the chance, he could actually fix a problem he perceived from merely looking at the Ducati in a rather small amount of time, less than 2 minutes actually. So a few peeps took and ran with the tangential correlation that perhaps Rossi was hired to "fix" everybody else's bikes too. That was of course assuming Rossi would be able to ride the thing better than Stoner. But everything changed day 1. Now it’s the opposite, it seems all the other Ducati riders are working hard to “fix” Rossi's bike (since it appears something is wrong with it).



I agree that Ducati would be happy to see Rossi wining, and would gladly trade the four Ducati's finishing in dead last for it to happen. Does anybody here really think Ducati are not supremely focused on the outcomes of this super Italian union Rossi-Ducati?



About your take saying Rossi/Burgess “do not design bikes”. True. But I'm sure you viewed the interview for which this thread was started. Did you catch the part where Burgess says he has been given "carte blanche" to move in another direction more apropos to what they are used to? Carte blanche, that means a blank cheque, a cheque that has no numerical value entered, but is already signed; that's pretty amazing wouldn't you say. (Enter Nino, who will probably give us a link from last year stating how they don't plan on changing the Ducati's DNA or that they must operating within a tiny budget...). Now we should all be past the idea that Ducati will move heaven and earth to help Rossi (that is a given), but they are now indicating they are even willing to scrap their design philosophy! (Take a moment to take in that last statement, as it should be breathtaking for anybody who gets what's actually happening with Ducati Corse racing.)



Am I hating? Have I said anything bad about Rossi? (Or just pointing out some inconsistency in the mindless reality of some of his fans?)



I'll add, if this year isn't much improved within the next few rounds, plan D will emerge, and they will scrap this year. They can chalk it up to poor health issues (shoulder), etc. and then begin working on 2012 bike in earnest. And I think the sooner they admit they cannot match Stoner on said bike, the better, and move on. 2012 is their best bet for Rossi to go out in a blaze of glory. The Japanese manufactures will surely be hurt by the economic turmoil in Japan, and justifying the development into the new era will be difficult if not impossible because of the infrastructure and power challenges in their country.

Ducati's got what they wanted as soon as Stoner found out about the JL offer.

michaelm said:

They had already tried to sign jorge who does not have such a record as a developer, and as you have pointed out the supply of aliens was becoming short by the time they signed valentino whom they probably had not envisaged becoming available previously. I am sure they would be happy for rossi to win championships any way he can with or without radical re-design of the bike, but also expect there was mutual agreement about re-design if it was necessary.

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Mike, then why even entertain the idea that Rossi was hired to "fix" Ducati? I know you like to be the diplomat and fancy an exchange with everybody, regardless how clueless or ridiculous their take is (and I suppose there is beauty in that), but again I see the idea that Rossi was hired to "fix" the bike. A bike, as you see, was in the condition to win races prior to Rossi throwing a leg over it. Now suddenly the collective conscience is that he was hired to "fix" it? Nothing could be further from the truth. Rossi was hired for one thing, as Ren said above, "to win titles". Period. Developing the bike was an afterthought. All riders are expected to develop a bike as they move along through the season, Rossi is no different, right? To counter this idea Rossi was hired to "fix" the bike, I would counter with the argument that Ducati went after Lorenzo. And as you note above, Lorenzo was head hunted to come ride for them. Why? Does Lorenzo have an extensive pedigree (true or perceived) of bike development? No, not really much to speak of, but what he does have is a reputation for being an amazing riding talent. That is what was first and foremost on Ducati's mind. NOW, things have changed (as of the test in Valencia I would say). It seems nobody really expected Rossi to struggle at Ducati, and rightly or wrongly so, after all, he's considered a current living legend still in competitive competition. I don't think he's diminished much to explain his struggling, as he is still very young, hungry, and at the top of his game (barring the shoulder injury that he has said is healing, so we can expect the "regular" Rossi to be back very soon). Simply he is struggling to match a phenomenal rider that is Stoner (hence the wholesale rationalizations going on currently), this is where most of the fall out is coming from.

Jumkie said:

Now we should all be past the idea that Ducati will move heaven and earth to help Rossi (that is a given), but they are now indicating they are even willing to scrap their design philosophy! (Take a moment to take in that last statement, as it should be breathtaking for anybody who gets what's actually happening with Ducati Corse racing.)

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All teams strive to help their main riders. What do you mean when you say 'moving heaven and earth'. The problems I have with this line is

1. If you are talking about the amount of money spent, you don't know how much each factory is spending on R&D. How do you assume Honda or Yamaha isn't moving heaven and earth? Given the financial might of the Japanese companies that is could be a reality

2. What would you have said if it was Ducati that came up with the seamless shift gear box? Would you have termed it moving heaven and earth (since it is a new technology altogether?)?



Secondly, they haven't mentioned anywhere that they are changing the design philosophy. Before going there, please tell me what you consider to be their design philosophy? If it is CF frame, then didn't they change their design philosophy for Stoner? If it is L engine, I haven't come across any report that they are planning to scrap that? So basically how do you backup your claims that Ducati are changing the design philosophy?



Thirdly,

Even if they are changing the design philosophy, what is wrong with that? If they conclude that the current design doesn't allow their riders to be at the top of the order consistently, what is wrong in changing the design?



You may not be hating, but I feel your views are as biased and unsubstantiated as anyone's around here. No offense meant

Ducati can change whatever they want, it's their company, so whatever.



The best part of all this is VR thinking he could come in and ride the bike like, or better than CS.



When VR said he thought it would be 'easy' to ride, that was a serious dig at CS's ability, and he is eating the hell out of those words about now.



This is probably the biggest reason CS has been smiling so much lately.

Renjith said:

You may not be hating, but I feel your views are as biased and unsubstantiated as anyone's around here. No offense meant

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None taken. Its refreshing to talk to somebody not so caught up in desperation.

All teams strive to help their main riders. What do you mean when you say 'moving heaven and earth'. The problems I have with this line is

1. If you are talking about the amount of money spent, you don't know how much each factory is spending on R&D. How do you assume Honda or Yamaha isn't moving heaven and earth? Given the financial might of the Japanese companies that is could be a reality

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Yes, of course, here we are talking a question of magnitude and message. I suppose I'd be hard pressed to show you the R&D balance sheet, as I'm sure you'd have the same problem to make the opposite point. But you don't need to look very far to see the extravagant ushering in of the team, while sponsorship lining up to support the effort while you have Yamaha still without one. And while these sponsors lined up at Ducati's door, Honda had to negotiate another term with Repsol, who if you remember, was not a forgone conclusion. If you want to argue that Ducati is somehow lacking funding, I really doubt anybody would take you serious.





Now lets turn to the message. While Yamaha and Honda are busy saying how they intend to give all their riders equal treatment, the message from Ducati is…”Ducati must improve for Rossi to be Rossi.” Ren, you are smart, can you see the fundamental ramifications in the difference in message? This is where Rossi fans get into trouble, as they are playing off this cue in message. They just naturally assume Rossi is not the problem here. And why not, it’s always been my experience that when Rossi has had some struggle or problem, it’s NEVER been his fault (even if evidence points that it was). So let me spell it out, Ducati is saying, “we need to move heaven and earth” for Rossi to be successful. As far as I can remember, I heard no such similar message with any of their other riders. However, I did here, go see a shrink, lets offer crazy money to hire another guy, (and tangentially by their sponsor) Stoner is faking his illness (exaggeration for effect).

2. What would you have said if it was Ducati that came up with the seamless shift gear box? Would you have termed it moving heaven and earth (since it is a new technology altogether?)?

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Ducati have come up with other unique technologies that didn't turn into results. You assume one, that the shift system is the reason for Honda's new results, if you are to believe Jeremy Burgess, he disagrees with this assessment. Two, that if Ducati had it, their handling issues would magically disappear. So to answer your question, I think had they come up with the "seamless shift" Rossi would have still been struggling.

Secondly, they haven't mentioned anywhere that they are changing the design philosophy. Before going there, please tell me what you consider to be their design philosophy? If it is CF frame, then didn't they change their design philosophy for Stoner? If it is L engine, I haven't come across any report that they are planning to scrap that? So basically how do you backup your claims that Ducati are changing the design philosophy?

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I'm pretty sure you know the answer to this, its simple, they do not subscribe to the conventional design employed by the Japanese manufactures. Did you see the interview with Burgess? Again, I would have you turn your attention to what Jeremy said, that is, they have been given the green light to change the bike to what they are more used to. Jeremy Burgess is used to Japanese bikes.

Thirdly,

Even if they are changing the design philosophy, what is wrong with that? If they conclude that the current design doesn't allow their riders to be at the top of the order consistently, what is wrong in changing the design?

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Nothing is wrong with changing it if that is where the company decides to go. But it does indicate something about the difference in treatment between Rossi and all other Ducati riders past and present. This is the point that keeps getting glossed over in these rationalizations. The failure to admit that Stoner was simply a better man for the Ducati job. Now suddenly the thing needs to change because Rossi can't ride it? Well ok, where was this need for change when three other champs couldn't ride it? We are not even covering the ludicrous idea that Stoner has been accused of not properly developing a bike. Sure, they can change it, but lets not sweep under the rug that this is only necessary now because Rossi is struggling. Is this a bias opinion? Is Rossi struggling? Is the message from Ducati a bold message for change? Because Rossi is struggling, am I bias in pointing it out? Is me pointing out the difference in sponsorship picture between current Ducati and the other Jap bikes, bias? I'm not so sure what is "bias" about that except that it gets under the skin of Rossi fans that their boy needs extraordinary help and means to preform in the way people have become accustom to but without the caveat of accepting the glaring advantages he's enjoyed.

Renjith said:

All teams strive to help their main riders. What do you mean when you say 'moving heaven and earth'. The problems I have with this line is

1. If you are talking about the amount of money spent, you don't know how much each factory is spending on R&D. How do you assume Honda or Yamaha isn't moving heaven and earth? Given the financial might of the Japanese companies that is could be a reality

2. What would you have said if it was Ducati that came up with the seamless shift gear box? Would you have termed it moving heaven and earth (since it is a new technology altogether?)?

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'Moving heaven and earth' isn't a dollar figure here, its how much you spend relative to the size of the company. Given the difference in size between Ducati and Honda the cost of Ducati Corse for 2011 makes a far, far bigger impact on Ducati's accounting than it would for Honda. Seriously, Ducati's entire global sales for 2010 would be a nice couple of days total sales for Honda's motorcycle division. Major effort for Ducati equals a fun marketing campaign for Honda that comes with bragging rights and lets them develop new engineering on the side.



And if Ducati had come up with the seamless shift gearbox I'd assume it was mostly outside work sourced through their F1 connections, as appears to be the case for Honda. Plenty of engineering to fit it into the RC212V but most accounts I've read are attributing the core technology to a third party like Zeroshift.



OTOH new developments like seamless shift are the only way Ducati can stay competitive in MotoGP. They can't solve problems the same way as Honda/Yamaha as they just can't spend with either of them - Kawasaki (and now Suzuki) failed at that game. The carbon subframe is exactly the sort of gamble they need to take if they can get it to offer a significant benefit over a conventional aluminum frame. As the little guy they need to take gambles and try unconventional stuff, the problem is that every so often you're going to fall flat on your face when the gamble fails.

^^^ the thing needed to change because Stoner couldn't ride it without regularly crashing either, simple



Nicky can't ride it either.......such is the result when a maufactuerer is lulled into a false sense of security and places it's eggs all in one( ultimately flawed) basket.

Talpa said:

^^^ the thing needed to change because Stoner couldn't ride it without regularly crashing either, simple



Nicky can't ride it either.......such is the result when a maufactuerer is lulled into a false sense of security and places it's eggs all in one( ultimately flawed) basket.

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unfortunately, ducati have not learned from past mistakes and have now done this ^^ very thing again. all their eggs out the stoner basket and into rossis' hands.

only difference is that rossi et al is better at ironing out the bugs in a japanese bike! this is not to say its not going to happen but it is a risk that could prove to be very detrimental to the ducati and rossi brands..

BigAl' timestamp='1301429897' post='271725 said:

unfortunately, ducati have not learned from past mistakes and have now done this ^^ very thing again. all their eggs out the stoner basket and into rossis' hands.

only difference is that rossi et al is better

at ironing out the bugs in a

japanese bike! this is not to

say its not going to happen but it is a

risk that could prove to be very

detrimental to the ducati and rossi

brands..

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granted, however with many others already succeeding in failing the choice of Rossi and co is possibly a last straw, as they have the best record on the grid by miles.

The last time vr rode an Italian bike he won a couple of titles.....it has been quite a while though!



No one with any degree of intellect is ridiculing Ducati for wanting to change for the better, and placing their faith in the goat and his crew. The pressure associated with hiring vr, I'm sure was well known, well before Ducati ever considered the idea, their plan Is long term......

Talpa said:

^^^ the thing needed to change because Stoner couldn't ride it without regularly crashing either, simple



Nicky can't ride it either.......such is the result when a maufactuerer is lulled into a false sense of security and places it's eggs all in one( ultimately flawed) basket.

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If you didn't feel the need to put this unnecessary Stoner Hating into every post you make then your contribution would be so much more valuable.

Two semi sensible post from you Talps, however I'd argue that you check your "eggs in one basket" logic to see if it holds water with the new Rossi-Ducati arrangement.

Jumkie said:

......

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At first, I thought of having a long post as reply to each of your points but I am tired after the days work. So my short points are

1. I am sure Ducati would have done the same to help JL had he went there after 2010. Assuming that, I don't understand why you make it look like any factory will 'move heaven and earth' only for Rossi.

2. Other champs who rode Ducati didn't have Rossi's pedigree/history of having success in multiple classes, makes, engine configs, tyres blah..blah.. In short, rightly or not, Ducati weren't sure before 2009 it was problem with bike as they didn't trust the rider's ability.

3. Seamless gear box example was used to show that other manufacturer's work equally hard to get some advantages. I don't care how many tenths it brings

4. Ducati listening to Rossi isn't his fault. I don't defend Rossi over his faults BTW

5. Ducati is the only factory with only one alien. This would skew development more towards the alien.

5. Ducati needed change not just because Rossi struggled on it. Even Stoner, couldn't finish higher than 4th in championship for consecutive years and this underlines the fact that there was something fundamentally wrong with bike. Think of it for a minute, if they have given a bike similar to Duc 2010, do you think he would win the title in 2011? (IMO even Stoner struggled on 2010 bike)The bike needed to change.

6. I would have agreed to your argument that Ducati are making these changes to make Rossi look good if Stoner had a dominant season similar to 2007 to 2010. Alas, that's not the case. Stoner being more of a 'win-it or bin-it' rider had few wins in 2010 but had lots of DNFs which finally put him as the last of the aliens. I wouldn't consider Stoner's 2010 season a success.

7. The bias is when you suggest Rossi is struggling in every other post, but the data is inadequate(with lots of variables) to make a reasonable analysis.

Jumkie said:

This was an intellegent intelligent post.



I think the idea that Rossi was hired to make everybody else's Ducati better was fabricated out of thin air. But not without some reaching correlation. When Rossi announced his move to Ducati, there was a lag time before Burgess said he would join him. It was one of the best-kept secrets, and it provided a bit of a collective holding of breath. Why? Well because Burgess is rightly seen as a fixer of problems communicated by Rossi. He even sent out the message to the world that if given the chance, he could actually fix a problem he perceived from merely looking at the Ducati in a rather small amount of time, less than 2 minutes actually. So a few peeps took and ran with the tangential correlation that perhaps Rossi was hired to "fix" everybody else's bikes too. That was of course assuming Rossi would be able to ride the thing better than Stoner. But everything changed day 1. Now it’s the opposite, it seems all the other Ducati riders are working hard to “fix” Rossi's bike (since it appears something is wrong with it).



I agree that Ducati would be happy to see Rossi wining, and would gladly trade the four Ducati's finishing in dead last for it to happen. Does anybody here really think Ducati are not supremely focused on the outcomes of this super Italian union Rossi-Ducati?



About your take saying Rossi/Burgess “do not design bikes”. True. But I'm sure you viewed the interview for which this thread was started. Did you catch the part where Burgess says he has been given "carte blanche" to move in another direction more apropos to what they are used to? Carte blanche, that means a blank cheque, a cheque that has no numerical value entered, but is already signed; that's pretty amazing wouldn't you say. (Enter Nino, who will probably give us a link from last year stating how they don't plan on changing the Ducati's DNA or that they must operating within a tiny budget...). Now we should all be past the idea that Ducati will move heaven and earth to help Rossi (that is a given), but they are now indicating they are even willing to scrap their design philosophy! (Take a moment to take in that last statement, as it should be breathtaking for anybody who gets what's actually happening with Ducati Corse racing.)



Am I hating? Have I said anything bad about Rossi? (Or just pointing out some inconsistency in the mindless reality of some of his fans?)



I'll add, if this year isn't much improved within the next few rounds, plan D will emerge, and they will scrap this year. They can chalk it up to poor health issues (shoulder), etc. and then begin working on 2012 bike in earnest. And I think the sooner they admit they cannot match Stoner on said bike, the better, and move on. 2012 is their best bet for Rossi to go out in a blaze of glory. The Japanese manufactures will surely be hurt by the economic turmoil in Japan, and justifying the development into the new era will be difficult if not impossible because of the infrastructure and power challenges in their country.

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1. I love it when you talk French

2. Agree.. Ducati will have to at least make a salutory effort to make the 800 effective - but like most mature organizations - must necessarily keep an eye on the future; big picture etc.

3. Agree... I'm sure the Italians (as good businessmen) must be factoring in potential set-backs for Japanese R&D - and perhaps even - making a more concerted effort to improve the Ducati for 2012. Cape diem and all that.



The Japanese are famous for persevering in times of difficulty - so it's too early to discount them at this point.

Who knows? Maybe radioactive valves will be the next big thing.

Talpa said:

granted, however with many others already succeeding in failing the choice of Rossi and co is possibly a last straw, as they have the best record on the grid by miles.

The last time vr rode an Italian bike he won a couple of titles.....it has been quite a while though!



No one with any degree of intellect is ridiculing Ducati for wanting to change for the better, and placing their faith in the goat and his crew. The pressure associated with hiring vr, I'm sure was well known, well before Ducati ever considered the idea, their plan Is long term......

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I would apply the "Watch what you ask for" sentiment that Arib mentioned in an earlier post. Apparently Rossi and Preziosi

have been making goo goo eyes at each other for a long time. I suspect the reality of Vale coming on board after

all the years of fantasizing is not unlike coming to know the reality one experiences when beginning to date a hot

women one's fantasized about for years - and finding out just how high maintenance she can be. Unnerving at first.