Is Casey Stoner the sole alien?

BarryMachine said:

When wasn't it ....... would be more apt.

Its an argument that I have running with Ereb, whereby he says "backing it in is done solely with the back brake and downshifting" ....... I disagree.

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You need front brake on to do it too. I mean, maybe it could be done with the back brake and downshifting, but it'd be very difficult and maybe only possible in the wet.



I've never done it with the front brake off. I've also never done it on a two stroke (or a bike with a slipper clutch).



You don't need so much front brake if you are a little heavier on the rear brake, and downshift at high rpm and actually use your body a little to get it out of line. It's a great feeling though, and one I miss when I race the two stroke.

Actually Rossi saw all the data from Casey riding the bike for years. I think they understand what he was doing but it would probably take years if ever feeling comfortable enough to do it half as well as Casey. Might as well just make the Duc around Rossi instead of trying to ride the bike like Casey, besides the yam is no slouch and Jlo might of been able to better defend his title if he had the hp him and Ben have been asking for. For the hoppers I'm not taking anything away from Casey, he's doing a great job to get his next championship.

BarryMachine said:

Rossi has no idea what Casey is doing, nor has MCN ( remember the great Neemes? "how t back it in" fiasco ........ that was good for a month of laughs )

Cudlin probably knows what Stoner is doing ( but don't assume he'd be game enough yet to do it like Casey ), Baylis would know ...... as would any 10y or older Aussie dirt track kid.



MCN can rave all they like about using brakes, but its all in the throttle, body posn, and lean of the bike. Hell these kids learn it on bikes without brakes at all ........ so until Mt Neeves gets out there and has a go at it ....... he is just rattling on about nothing. I will give them that brakes can be used ........ but they are not the basis of it, the basis is that the bike sideways is what is slowing any tangential forward speed, and the centripetal force ( making the bike climb into a corner is provided by powering up the rear wheel. SO if you break traction by adding throttle ( counter intuitive I know, and possibly scary ) then you are in essence speeding up out of a corner so much sooner.

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Yes, Stoner is the sole alien in GP. No doubt in my mind (though the occasional bump can really kick his ... sometimes.)

hawkdriver said:

Actually Rossi saw all the data from Casey riding the bike for years. I think they understand what he was doing but it would probably take years if ever feeling comfortable enough to do it half as well as Casey. Might as well just make the Duc around Rossi instead of trying to ride the bike like Casey, besides the yam is no slouch and Jlo might of been able to better defend his title if he had the hp him and Ben have been asking for. For the hoppers I'm not taking anything away from Casey, he's doing a great job to get his next championship.

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I don't agree that Rossi really has a grip on what Casey is doing just by reading telemetry, the "doing of it" is the "knowing it" in this case I believe. ( two days of racing minimotos with slicks on an ice rink with the brakes removed would be more beneficial )



I do agree that it would take years to learn, years Rossi does not have, so I think you are correct and they are following their best possible course in making the Duc. Rossi rideable. sadly it appears to be taking so long I think they may never recover and catch the Japanese manuf.s.



The scary thing is that some of the moto2 riders are already "on to" the edge that Stoner has, and are ( if rumours are correct ) going to be having a go at "doing it" as we speak.( In another thread I mentioned the rumour that Bradl ? and X? were reportedly having a run at a Western Sydney dirt track when they arrive in Aust. )



But meh, someone will allways come along with some "even newer" skill that they will all chase next.

Stoner is the only regular Australien on the grid but he is very much human and makes mistakes all the time just like the rest do....he isnt a riding "god", the new messiah or an extra-terrestrial - just a very skillful motorcycle racer.



He does have a set of riding skills that are seemingly unique and allow him in most instances to ride a motorbike a little bit faster than most other riders. Even though he is often dominant he has his bad days and others on those day are superior.



I dont think J-Lo/Pedro/Rossi have a lot less talent....they just cant emulate his peculiar riding style but at certain times and on certain circuits they are simply better and have proven so again this year (well - all except Rossi that is )

michaelm said:

I think rossi and burgess have a fair idea what stoner did on the ducati, burgess basically describing it as controlling the bike on the edge of crashing, which accords with your explanation. Probably not anything to try at home though, and possibly not a viable long term riding strategy for stoner himself, I think it wore him down, hence his immediate glee on encountering the honda which does not require such extremes.

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There was an article (I'm not going to research) where Burgess said tat riding the Ducati was too hard and that Rossi was spending all his time thinking about how to keep it on two wheels rather than just riding it and then thinking more importantly about tactics and strategy.



The notion that Stoner could ride it, that is, go through the whole keep it on two wheels thing and then have any time to think about race strategy would set him apart.



It is manifestly obvious that no other Ducati rider, Rossi included is able to do this.



I find the alien term overused at present but it does mark him as a rider of extraordinary skill.

Jumkie said:

Yes, Stoner is the sole alien in GP. No doubt in my mind (though the occasional bump can really kick his ... sometimes.)

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I think between Jorge and Dani they would pay for that bump to tour the world with the motogp circus. One to keep his championship and the other his job.



Although, if they rode a bit faster the bump would turn on them as well, hard to pick good allies sometimes.

BarryMachine said:

I don't agree that Rossi really has a grip on what Casey is doing just by reading telemetry, the "doing of it" is the "knowing it" in this case I believe. ( two days of racing minimotos with slicks on an ice rink with the brakes removed would be more beneficial

)



I do agree that it would take years to learn, years Rossi does not have, so I think you are correct and they are following their best possible course in making the Duc. Rossi rideable. sadly it appears to be taking so long I think they may never recover and catch the Japanese manuf.s.



The scary thing is that some of the moto2 riders are already "on to" the edge that Stoner has, and are ( if rumours are correct ) going to be having a go at "doing it" as we speak.( In another thread I mentioned the rumour that Bradl ? and X? were reportedly having a run at a Western Sydney dirt track when they arrive in Aust. )



But meh, someone will allways come along with some "even newer" skill that they will all chase next.

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Didn't me and you already come to the conclusion that Duc should send some scouts to Australia and recruit some of your buzzing bees or whatever it was you called the young dirt riders over there. We've seen Rossi and a few others sticking that left leg out during braking and they must have been practicing to much American style dirt tracking with only left handers lol. You guys have lefts, rights, and some good quick transitions right? We might have to change all the tracks to flow counter clock wise for the rest of these guys to keep up and feel more comfortable on the bikes, more left truns ).

hawkdriver said:

Didn't me and you already come to the conclusion that Duc should send some scouts to Australia and recruit some of your buzzing bees or whatever it was you called the young dirt riders over there. We've seen Rossi and a few others sticking that left leg out during braking and they must have been practicing to much American style dirt tracking with only left handers lol. You guys have lefts, rights, and some good quick transitions right? We might have to change all the tracks to flow counter clock wise for the rest of these guys to keep up and feel more comfortable on the bikes, more left truns

).

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Haha yeah the "buzzy bees" thats right ....... go to a dirt track and watch the kids on 65's and you will see/hear what I mean. I went to a local minicycle event with my son years ago, and there was particularly angry sounding "buzzy bee" ( flatout and everywhere sideways ). When they stopped the angry buzzy bee took off the helmet and I swear it was the cutest little barbie doll of a .... She whooped arse too!

I wish I had that kind of talent, I used to blame it on the bike a huge Bultaco and after reading the Rainey interview over in the forums on Krop's site it was apparently just a lack of talent hahaha. The funny thing is that I brought it up on here before as my excuse when we were talking about youth racing. That article is gonna kill poor Jumkie and start another massive thread over here. Rainey gives an honest review of some of the current riders and it isn't flattering.

no, but the Honda is the only spaceship

hawkdriver said:

I wish I had that kind of talent, I used to blame it on the bike a huge Bultaco and after reading the Rainey interview over in the forums on Krop's site it was apparently just a lack of talent hahaha. The funny thing is that I brought it up on here before as my excuse when we were talking about youth racing. That article is gonna kill poor Jumkie and start another massive thread over here. Rainey gives an honest review of some of the current riders and it isn't flattering.

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When was that? I would love to see the rainey interview.

michaelm said:

When was that? I would love to see the rainey interview.

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http://www.fim-live....e/latest-issue/



its a good read.

BarryMachine said:

http://www.fim-live....e/latest-issue/



its a good read.

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Thanks baz.

Thanks for the link gents.....Wayne Rainey is one of the best racers I have seen - in fact he is at the top of the list. I really cant separate Wayne and Mick Doohan for top spot - both have equal billing as my GOAT nominees....both were hard yet fair racers with a ton of courage. True gladiators.

Wow, Rainey doesnt pull any punches. Spies doesnt have the guts! I would rather a man tell me i dont have the talent, than say i didnt have the guts. As someone who has played a ton of sports in their life, its cool to read about what motivates athletes.There is always that one competitor who raises your game. What Rainey and Schwantz had to say about each other reminded me of a documentary i watched about Bird and Magic. Bird said after Magic was diagnosed with AIDS and forced to retire, he lost his zeal for the game. He said injuries hurt more, he didnt get up a immediately to turn on sports center and see what Magic had done. He didnt check box scores. Just wasnt the same without the guy who had been his hated rival since college. As so often happens, guys you thought you hated, turn out to be your crutch later in life because you understand each other. Magic said the players he thought were friends, turned on him, and the guy he thought was his hated enemy, turned out to be the best friend he had in the game.Its a great sports documentary if you have never seen it.

Wow... "Hayden...far from the best". "Rossi does not seem the same". Old Kev' has some interesting words...

Sometimes stating the obvious can seem very profound... like the famous Monsieur De La Palisse.

I wouldn't know about dirt track racing in Aus, but i think Rossi admires those that do it and has tried his hand at it.

Not sure if this is exactly what you're referring to, but its something i came across while browsing for something interesing.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj2TpZdK2rc

RCV600RR said:

Wow... "Hayden...far from the best". "Rossi does not seem the same". Old Kev' has some interesting words...

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Good read. He uses Stoner as the standard, and he is right, as they are all "far from the best". But given that Nicky is on Rossi's ... week in week out on what is suppose to be less equipment, I'd say Hayden is "close to the 2nd best". Rainey did say Nicky give his maximum. So given Nicky's eternal 2nd fiddle status when it comes to equipment and clout, I'd say he's shown to be pretty good.



He was much more harsh on Edwards and Spies though. Saying Edwards had outlasted his welcome and Spies not being aggressive enough has got to hurt. As Pov said above, I'd rather a legend say the talent is the issue, as he suggests with Nicky. But not having the "guts", well, if that doesn't but foot to ... for Spies, then nothing will.



Rainey's chastise on race direction for Sic's penalty should make those who called for Butler's resignation happy, and I agree. It should also be a slap to Pedro and Lorenzo who wanted Sic to be burned at the stake.



Rainey had some great takes, though I see it a bit different. Regarding Stoner, he's right on the money. I think Stoner, as a rider, is the only alien, or as Rainey described it "a rider from another time". He also touches on Stoner's social skills in saying that nothing else much matters to Casey. I wouldn't expect Mr. Rainey to call Stoner a whiner, but I think Schwantz did ro came close to it. Regarding Spies, I personally think Spies has the guts. What I think may be seen by Mr. Rainey a lack of aggressiveness is perhaps more a willingness for Spies to make clean passing or resort to dangerous tactics. Spies almost never concedes a pass once he attempts it, and I have seen this repeated several times. There is a sequence that I think typifies Spies style of racing, if you care to look up a sequence in Race 1 WSBK 2009 Assen; you will see Spies and Haslam go through a series of turns neither willing to concede but neither willing to resort to dirty racing. Regarding his take on Nicky, I think a follow up question should have been the parity, or lack there of regarding darling rider influence. The lesson of 2011 highlights the ramifications of talent and equipment combination. As far as Edwards, sure he may have stayed too long, but who was beating him? Edwards was never going to have the clout of a Spanish or Italian rider. Edwards being Rossi's teammate was a role rather than an attempt to win a title. I'd say once Edwards was relegated to the Tech3, then he stayed too long.



I've met Wayne Rainey, and I can honestly say, he left a life long impression on me. I've also watched others meet him, and I see that they have had a similar experience when they walk away. Its almost like if there is an energy that beams from his eyes and pierces your soul. I'm not embellishing either, as I know others here have felt the same way when they have met the man.