German GP 23

Keshav · Jun 19, 2023

gui22a said:
Then we must thank Ducati for stopping Marquez boring era. Were not by them + AD04 we'd have watched the Marquez cup. Would that be fun? I myself was about to stop watching.
I personally can't see rules exploration as a bad thing, in the end we are talking about motor racing where bikes and technologies are involved. No point in having frozen rules and machines that never update neither shows some innovation. Then take out the bikes and let the riders run on their shoes 100m dash or something like this together with Usain Bolt or Carl Lews.

Gigi pushes the rules and creates new ways of doing things. He must find something to thrive. What is the problem with that? This is called creativity, a thing some japanese factories are currently lacking. True that sometimes some figures will try to concentrate power (like one in the past as known as Rossi), but that's part of the game. Not long time ago Ducati was sucking so hard that we were chatting here not if but when they would pull out from the series. Now you can see how things can turn around...

By the way, I have been taking a sight into David Emmet's blog (AKA moto matters), although I'm not subscribed, you can infer through comments what's being talked in the article, and it seems he brought into discussion a possible Honda pull out. Some other guys discussing if Yamaha could also leave. LoL....how fans are... fun. The day Honda or Yamaha leaves MotoGP, it's the end of the world. They will never leave. MotoGP smells, breath and IS Honda & Yamaha. And the moment they decide to make a come back, they will. Never bet against them. Never. So I think Ducati is trying to squeeze their momentum the most as they know the big giants are just taking a nap. Also, I doubt MM will leave Honda. In the 2024 the japanese will be there and the field will be equalized again. Honda machine is not so crappy and so away as it seems, and also Yamaha.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,I can only speak for myself, but I've been following the sport since '79 when it was called Formula One (with an "off period" after my second wife, who was a corner marshal, passed away) and while it's true I oohed and ahhed every month when Kevin Cameron (who BTW built the last bike I raced in AMA-CCS) wrote his technical articles about the latest developments in the sport and even bought the $40.00 coffee table book with lavish tech .... photos of all the bikes every year, all those books are collecting dust somewhere in my basement. But what I vividly recall, are the actual races (which you had to buy from Geoff Duke's place on the Isle of Man by international post) - and the riders themselves. Spencer, Roberts, Lawson, Schwantz, Shobert, Sheene, Doohan etc..
...........I know a few serious collectors out here, who own actual decomissioned bikes from that era and any one of them would trade away that OW1 for a chance to spend an hour talking to Kenny Roberts.
............I'm not that convinced that tiny little improvements every year drive the majority of the fanbase. The way the crowds waxed and wained depending on whether Rossi was there would seem to bear out my point of view. .... look at the stands filled with geezers wearing #46 gear years after he's been out of the sport. Look at boxing. Nobody gives a crap about the boxing ring. It's all about the competitors, the human element. I still go to Flat Track races whenever I can and while they don't have the spectacle and umbrella girls and movie stars rubbing elbows with millionaire team owners, the racing is great, despite the relative low-budget equipment used.
............Ok, gotta go get my dad's bolt-action WW2 rifle and chase them damned kids off my lawn.

mylexicon · Jun 19, 2023

gui22a said:
Then we must thank Ducati for stopping Marquez boring era. Were not by them + AD04 we'd have watched the Marquez cup. Would that be fun? I myself was about to stop watching.
I personally can't see rules exploration as a bad thing, in the end we are talking about motor racing where bikes and technologies are involved. No point in having frozen rules and machines that never update neither shows some innovation. Then take out the bikes and let the riders run on their shoes 100m dash or something like this together with Usain Bolt or Carl Lews.

Gigi pushes the rules and creates new ways of doing things. He must find something to thrive. What is the problem with that? This is called creativity, a thing some japanese factories are currently lacking. True that sometimes some figures will try to concentrate power (like one in the past as known as Rossi), but that's part of the game. Not long time ago Ducati was sucking so hard that we were chatting here not if but when they would pull out from the series. Now you can see how things can turn around...

By the way, I have been taking a sight into David Emmet's blog (AKA moto matters), although I'm not subscribed, you can infer through comments what's being talked in the article, and it seems he brought into discussion a possible Honda pull out. Some other guys discussing if Yamaha could also leave. LoL....how fans are... fun. The day Honda or Yamaha leaves MotoGP, it's the end of the world. They will never leave. MotoGP smells, breath and IS Honda & Yamaha. And the moment they decide to make a come back, they will. Never bet against them. Never. So I think Ducati is trying to squeeze their momentum the most as they know the big giants are just taking a nap. Also, I doubt MM will leave Honda. In the 2024 the japanese will be there and the field will be equalized again. Honda machine is not so crappy and so away as it seems, and also Yamaha.

The Marquez era didn't suit me. I was particularly troubled by winning the title in his rookie season without Stoner present. It created the appearance that rider aids and 4-strokes had made the sport trivial. To be sure, if Ducati had built a bike that Dovi or someone claimed was an extension of their consciousness, I'd be breaking out the champagne for every Ducati win. But that's not what happened. They built a bike that was comparable to the Honda in some ways, but they didn't have Marquez, and Ducati couldn't seal the deal. That's when Gigi put arsenic in the punch and dared everyone to drink it.

Ride height is not new, and while Ducati's ride height system surely uses some trick electronics, it's just a rules workaround. It's about as clever as programming punch cards on mainframes. I'm sure programming MS Office on punch cards requires a 200 IQ, buy why use your smarts on something so ridiculous? The Japanese are not out of ideas, they are stupefied by the current state of the sport, but they deserve no sympathy, imo, because they were part of the rules making process. They could have closed some of the loopholes. Ultimately, there are 3.5 years remaining for these tech rules. Do the Japanese really need to invest tens of millions in developing a comprehensive MotoGP design philosophy around punch card programming? They probably are mulling a complete withdrawal.

Ducati is backed by VW. The German auto conglomerate dwarfs Honda, and makes Yamaha Motor Corp look like a grain of sand on the beach. This is not David vs Goliath. This is a corporate bloodletting. First one to faint loses. Does a smart company stick around and play this game? or do they pull a Suzuki?

warthog1 · Jun 19, 2023

The Marquez era did suit me.

Been watching since the mid 80s.
Yes tyres have improved allowing more lean angle, as has power delivery, but the bikes are heavier.
Never seen anyone push the front of the motorcycle that hard.
Loved his self belief and how impervious he is to mind games and fan pressure.
It has been great. The clear margin he had is never coming back imo but I enjoyed watching it.

michaelm · Jun 20, 2023

mylexicon said:
The Marquez era didn't suit me. I was particularly troubled by winning the title in his rookie season without Stoner present. It created the appearance that rider aids and 4-strokes had made the sport trivial. To be sure, if Ducati had built a bike that Dovi or someone claimed was an extension of their consciousness, I'd be breaking out the champagne for every Ducati win. But that's not what happened. They built a bike that was comparable to the Honda in some ways, but they didn't have Marquez, and Ducati couldn't seal the deal. That's when Gigi put arsenic in the punch and dared everyone to drink it.

Ride height is not new, and while Ducati's ride height system surely uses some trick electronics, it's just a rules workaround. It's about as clever as programming punch cards on mainframes. I'm sure programming MS Office on punch cards requires a 200 IQ, buy why use your smarts on something so ridiculous? The Japanese are not out of ideas, they are stupefied by the current state of the sport, but they deserve no sympathy, imo, because they were part of the rules making process. They could have closed some of the loopholes. Ultimately, there are 3.5 years remaining for these tech rules. Do the Japanese really need to invest tens of millions in developing a comprehensive MotoGP design philosophy around punch card programming? They probably are mulling a complete withdrawal.

Ducati is backed by VW. The German auto conglomerate dwarfs Honda, and makes Yamaha Motor Corp look like a grain of sand on the beach. This is not David vs Goliath. This is a corporate bloodletting. First one to faint loses. Does a smart company stick around and play this game? or do they pull a Suzuki?

I am in basic agreement with you as I have said previously.

I have always been a Ducati fan (goes back to a girl and an 850 Ducati) and more so after my countrymen Bayliss and Stoner rode for them, and as you have said they won in 2007 as huge underdogs when basically an artisanal equipe helped by a successful gamble on a a different tyre manufacturer and almost accidentally signing probably the only current rider who could ride their bike to its potential, but that 2007 title win provoked/was dealt with by extreme prejudice in both your view and mine.

When Ducati first tried it on with aero/wings etc Honda disapproved, and iirc threatened to bury them if they wanted an all out aero war. Now the boot is on the other foot, and I can see why many have no sympathy, but for me anyway Honda were correct in their anti-aero view. As you say the ride height and aero devices aren’t particularly new or clever, just unnecessary imo and Honda’s, and as I have said imo reduce the difference an exceptional rider can make, and probably decrease safety given the propensity of the bikes to let go at the limit.

If moto gp is mainly a vanity project then the world’s biggest car company will easily outcompete the world’s biggest motorcycle company as you imply. From my point of view Honda are at least a long term committed bike company, which VW/Audi are not, however admirable the original Ducati motogp efforts were.

misfit · Jun 20, 2023

MdubSTYLIE said:
So you prefer a series where a superior bike wins by inferior riders than when the skill of a rider wins him championships? Would you have preferred if Usain Bolts competition wore jetpacks to even the playing field and make it less boring?

But isn't this the nature of MotoGP and other similarly non-spec series? Isn't it also true that the fastest riders, through their performance leverage, tend to ride the fastest bikes? IMO, we are witnessing a natural consequence of the shift in the balance of power between teams, in that, a couple of the faster riders are currently 'stranded' in teams that happen to now be the slower ones?

What *is* concerning to me is the amount of Ducati-based teams compared to Honda and Yamaha. The period of Ducati domination will likely be a long one but then, one can never write Honda off totally.

michaelm · Jun 20, 2023

misfit said:
But isn't this the nature of MotoGP and other similarly non-spec series? Isn't it also true that the fastest riders, through their performance leverage, tend to ride the fastest bikes? IMO, we are witnessing a natural consequence of the shift in the balance of power between teams, in that, a couple of the faster riders are currently 'stranded' in teams that happen to now be the slower ones?

What *is* concerning to me is the amount of Ducati-based teams compared to Honda and Yamaha. The period of Ducati domination will likely be a long one but then, one can never write Honda off totally.

Sure, goes back to a particularly smart Italian poster on here back in the day (? Babelfish), Rossi and Doohan may have ended up on the best bikes, but this was also because they were the best, and probably contributed to their bikes being the best to boot.

Rossi’s bike academy has been fruitful, but I somehow suspect that while Ducati may have several of the best riders on the grid I consider it unlikely they have the best 8 riders on the grid.

The difference is them giving 8 good riders competitive bikes, which is close to unprecedented, although Honda reputedly had 5 equal bikes on the grid at one point in the Doohan era, and gave the other riders Mick’s data as well, which didn’t best please Mick. Having the same 500 gp bike as Mick and riding it the same as Mick was rather different back in the 500 era however, although the bikes had probably been somewhat tamed by the end of his era.

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 20, 2023

misfit said:
But isn't this the nature of MotoGP and other similarly non-spec series? Isn't it also true that the fastest riders, through their performance leverage, tend to ride the fastest bikes? IMO, we are witnessing a natural consequence of the shift in the balance of power between teams, in that, a couple of the faster riders are currently 'stranded' in teams that happen to now be the slower ones?

What *is* concerning to me is the amount of Ducati-based teams compared to Honda and Yamaha. The period of Ducati domination will likely be a long one but then, one can never write Honda off totally.

Totally agree.

misfit · Jun 20, 2023

michaelm said:
Sure, goes back to a particularly smart Italian poster on here back in the day (? Babelfish), Rossi and Doohan may have ended up on the best bikes, but this was also because they were the best, and probably contributed to their bikes being the best to boot.

Rossi’s bike academy has been fruitful, but I somehow suspect that while Ducati may have several of the best riders on the grid I consider it unlikely they have the best 8 riders on the grid.

The difference is them giving 8 good riders competitive bikes, which is close to unprecedented, although Honda reputedly had 5 equal bikes on the grid at one point in the Doohan era, and gave the other riders Mick’s data as well, which didn’t best please Mick. Having the same 500 gp bike as Mick and riding it the same as Mick was rather different back in the 500 era however, although the bikes had probably been somewhat tamed by the end of his era.

I think Ducati's domination is now in full maturity. What has kept both Fabio and Marq at their respective teams are not only their current contracts, and past success, but the belief that their teams will improve based on their past successes. I agree with you that Ducati do not have the 8 best riders on the grid... The only ones that have really caught my attention are the current World Champ, Jorge Martin, Marco Bezzecchi and the recovering from injury .. E. Bastianini.

gui22a · Jun 20, 2023

mylexicon said:
Ducati is backed by VW. The German auto conglomerate dwarfs Honda, and makes Yamaha Motor Corp look like a grain of sand on the beach. This is not David vs Goliath. This is a corporate bloodletting. First one to faint loses. Does a smart company stick around and play this game? or do they pull a Suzuki?

No way hahah. BTW, VW has nothing to do with Ducati Corse and I'm sure they don't give a .... for MotoGP as most people don't even associate Audi with Ducati, let alone VW. Honda may be a bit smaller than VW but this by no means make them small, actually VW market cap is about 77 billion whereas Honda is 55 billion, we are not talking about dwarfirsm here. And Honda is directly involved with MotoGP whereas VW is not. I'm not sure VW sends money for Audi, let alone Ducati. I think Ducati walks with their own shoes to be honest.

Someone asked me if I do prefer a bike domination rather than a rider domination. I do prefer NO domination, but if I could choose, bike domination, cause at least there would be more riders riding that bike capable of making some show as it happened this weekend. As long as I remember, Ducati is the first manufacturer bringing a bike more than 2 riders can fight for the win. When we watched Honda or Yamaha domination, that was not the case with their satellite teams. Both brands monopolized the best material around their #1 rider. At least Ducati is not an ....... in this aspect. And, if not by Ducati finding a way to battle MM93, we'd have in motogp an age similar to 2000's Schumacher-Ferrari duet. Very cool, isn't it?

I can't compete with @Keshav masters english, he outclass me so much I can't even begin to text an answer hahahah. Actually I have a hard time understanding some bits of his text. Tried to google translate his text but the software crashed hahahahaha. Joking aside, I got your point, mate. You basically got tired of paying tributes for bike development, technologies, bits and bytes, whatever, and now enjoy casual racing with riders clashing each other. That's ok, we are old guard and we mature, but as new generations come and go, the cycle repeats. Fanboysm is what moves the sport and each time more related to brands than to riders as people are getting more and more egocentric.

gui22a · Jun 20, 2023

MdubSTYLIE said:
So you prefer a series where a superior bike wins by inferior riders than when the skill of a rider wins him championships? Would you have preferred if Usain Bolts competition wore jetpacks to even the playing field and make it less boring?

Answered above sorry.

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 20, 2023

gui22a said:
Answered above sorry.

You did and well said. I enjoy watching raw pure talent such as Marc saving the bike on his knee or elbow or helmet. But that is not to say I don't enjoy what ducati is doing right now either. But there is something special about watching a once in a generation talent doing things that others cannot that I really enjoy. Its poetic.

#22 · Jun 20, 2023

I haven't been able to post as I was away racing myself this weekend and only just got to watch all the sessions yesterday. Martin was on top form and if he can now keep that up consistently, he will be a threat to Bagnaia. Binder made a rare mistake in the feature race but I'm still counting on him to mount a championship challenge. Vinales is fuycking useless and Aprilia need to replace him ASAP. Zarco moans about Marquez in practice but nearly sent Binder into the gravel at T11 in the sprint. Hypocrite.

Honda.....

I personally believe Marc and Honda are done. I've had a seen similar situations in the past and I think he decided that, given his record at the Sachsenring, if he wasn;t competitive here then it was over. He also wanted to prove it was the bike and not him. Regardless of what people say about him, Honda currently have 3 injured riders out of their roster of 4. Joan Mir was a world champ 3 years ago, Rins won the last 2 of 3 races last season and Marc is an 8 time world champ....it's the ....... bike

It has been reported that Honda have nothing new for the 2024 bike usually tested the day after Misano, so 2024 is gone for them too. Marc can not ride around for another season and a half like this and as I have said before, he needs to buy out his contract and leave if he wants to live a healthy life, let alone win more championships.

Why a MotoGP divorce is now the only option for Marquez and Honda

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 20, 2023

#22 said:
I haven't been able to post as I was away racing myself this weekend and only just got to watch all the sessions yesterday. Martin was on top form and if he can now keep that up consistently, he will be a threat to Bagnaia. Binder made a rare mistake in the feature race but I'm still counting on him to mount a championship challenge. Vinales is fuycking useless and Aprilia need to replace him ASAP. Zarco moans about Marquez in practice but nearly sent Binder into the gravel at T11 in the sprint. Hypocrite.

Honda.....

I personally believe Marc and Honda are done. I've had a seen similar situations in the past and I think he decided that, given his record at the Sachsenring, if he wasn;t competitive here then it was over. He also wanted to prove it was the bike and not him. Regardless of what people say about him, Honda currently have 3 injured riders out of their roster of 4. Joan Mir was a world champ 3 years ago, Rins won the last 2 of 3 races last season and Marc is an 8 time world champ....it's the ....... bike

It has been reported that Honda have nothing new for the 2024 bike usually tested the day after Misano, so 2024 is gone for them too. Marc can not ride around for another season and a half like this and as I have said before, he needs to buy out his contract and leave if he wants to live a healthy life, let alone win more championships.

Why a MotoGP divorce is now the only option for Marquez and Honda

I really hope so. Its not that the honda is slow but it is unsafe. Everyone riding it is risking their future and that is not ok. I'd much rather be losing races on the yamaha than getting thrown off at any given moment by the honda. I wouldn't give a flying .... if honda quit motogp today. The safety of the riders is more important to me than the amount of manufactures that race. .... it, whats two more ducatis?

mylexicon · Jun 20, 2023

gui22a said:
No way hahah. BTW, VW has nothing to do with Ducati Corse and I'm sure they don't give a .... for MotoGP as most people don't even associate Audi with Ducati, let alone VW. Honda may be a bit smaller than VW but this by no means make them small, actually VW market cap is about 77 billion whereas Honda is 55 billion, we are not talking about dwarfirsm here. And Honda is directly involved with MotoGP whereas VW is not. I'm not sure VW sends money for Audi, let alone Ducati. I think Ducati walks with their own shoes to be honest.

Someone asked me if I do prefer a bike domination rather than a rider domination. I do prefer NO domination, but if I could choose, bike domination, cause at least there would be more riders riding that bike capable of making some show as it happened this weekend. As long as I remember, Ducati is the first manufacturer bringing a bike more than 2 riders can fight for the win. When we watched Honda or Yamaha domination, that was not the case with their satellite teams. Both brands monopolized the best material around their #1 rider. At least Ducati is not an ....... in this aspect. And, if not by Ducati finding a way to battle MM93, we'd have in motogp an age similar to 2000's Schumacher-Ferrari duet. Very cool, isn't it?

I can't compete with @Keshav masters english, he outclass me so much I can't even begin to text an answer hahahah. Actually I have a hard time understanding some bits of his text. Tried to google translate his text but the software crashed hahahahaha. Joking aside, I got your point, mate. You basically got tired of paying tributes for bike development, technologies, bits and bytes, whatever, and now enjoy casual racing with riders clashing each other. That's ok, we are old guard and we mature, but as new generations come and go, the cycle repeats. Fanboysm is what moves the sport and each time more related to brands than to riders as people are getting more and more egocentric.

Multinational corporations don't buy companies without a strategy and set of incentives/punishments for the appointed execs. VW knows the plan and the personnel. They don't care if it's hydraulic ride height or emissions-cheating (too soon?). Just get the wins, and deliver several hundred million dollars of windfall profits. The important people at Ducati, including Ducati Corse, may not get emails from Mr. Antlitz, but they do have an equity stake in achieving what VW wants.

Regarding VW's size, it's annual revenues are roughly 20x Yamaha Motor Corp's revenue and about 2.5x-3x of Honda's annual revenue. VAG is much bigger. BMW and Honda are close to the same size in annual revenue.

This isn't about riders clashing. Is that what you think would happen if the regs went back to 2018? Seems like Marquez would just walk away with a big bag of titles. That's not an outcome I would particularly enjoy, but at least it would be authentic and sporting. My critique is about personnel within the sport who frequently deceive themselves, the sanctioning bodies and the fans regarding the sport's new "developments". These people basically get tired of working around the limitations of the rider. They introduce new equipment to circumvent the world class athletes in the saddle. It inevitably leads to a flood of new technical restrictions, and the series settles at a new equilibrium with less economic potential and less interest for the fans.

Mrpurple · Jun 20, 2023

Whats more important on a bike than the tires? Give Honda and Yamaha some fitting rubber and MM ans Fabs will be at the top again.

#22 · Jun 20, 2023

mylexicon said:
They introduce new equipment to circumvent the world class athletes in the saddle. It inevitably leads to a flood of new technical restrictions, and the series settles at a new equilibrium with less economic potential and less interest for the fans.

Exactly. And more technical restrictions are the reason we are in this mess. As I have said before, they've limited number of cylinders and engine size which means your bore and stroke are fixed too. You are on a fixed ECU and spec tyres. What else is there to do apart from aero and ride height devices?

I remember when the 5 engines rule came out. Yamaha said it cost them more to regularly fly those engines back to Japan for dyno testing than it would have to just use more engines.

#22 · Jun 20, 2023

MdubSTYLIE said:
I really hope so. Its not that the honda is slow but it is unsafe. Everyone riding it is risking their future and that is not ok. I'd much rather be losing races on the yamaha than getting thrown off at any given moment by the honda. I wouldn't give a flying .... if honda quit motogp today. The safety of the riders is more important to me than the amount of manufactures that race. .... it, whats two more ducatis?

Yep, at least the Yamaha is just slow.

In other news, KTM have said they are taking up Acostas option for MotoGp for 2024. One rumor is they want Fernandez to be on loan at Gresini but that's unlikely as they look to be securing Tony Arbolino. So they either have to dump Pol or create a new factory team as apparently we are at the limit of privateer teams allowed.

mylexicon · Jun 20, 2023

#22 said:
Exactly. And more technical restrictions are the reason we are in this mess. As I have said before, they've limited number of cylinders and engine size which means your bore and stroke are fixed too. You are on a fixed ECU and spec tyres. What else is there to do apart from aero and ride height devices?

I remember when the 5 engines rule came out. Yamaha said it cost them more to regularly fly those engines back to Japan for dyno testing than it would have to just use more engines.

It's the other way around. Bad developments beget technical restrictions. The choice to pursue additional sport-killing systems is independent of the prior bans, regardless of what the MSMA claim.

They can't have engine freedom and fuel-pressure-freedom and materials freedom because they won't let go of six-axis-gear-specific-moon-phase-specific adaptive throttle mapping, wheelie control, launch control and other horrors lurking in the ECU package. Since they won't drop it, they have to ban themselves from spending $20M to access the 2%-3% benefit that could be derived from adding cylinders and valves, shortening stroke, and playing around with firing order.

If they eliminate the stuff that lets them control how the rider rides the bike, the sport would be a lot more interesting for everyone. But it's a bridge too far for the MSMA. Too scary. Some nobodies like Motocycsz or Ilmor might join.

That's why the rules are not free. Not because bumpkins wanna see guys bash fairings.

mikesbytes · Jun 20, 2023

The unified tyres and unified ECU have enabled the satellite teams to get their riders on or near the podium once in a while. Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't we seen riders from all teams somewhere near the podium at least once this season? For example

Bagnaia
M Marquez
Quartaro
Binder
A Espargaro
Bezzecchi
Martin
A Marquez
Oliveria
Rins
A Fernandez

Barbedwirebikerr · Jun 21, 2023

mikesbytes said:
The unified tyres and unified ECU have enabled the satellite teams to get their riders on or near the podium once in a while. Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't we seen riders from all teams somewhere near the podium at least once this season? For example

Bagnaia

M Marquez

Quartaro

Binder

A Espargaro

Bezzecchi

Martin

A Marquez

Oliveria

Rins

A Fernandez

Isn't quartararo yet to break top 10?

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