Four races, 3 1/2 different men win...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 23 2008, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is funny coming from you who cried all last two years that the physical universe had conspired to ruin Rossi's tires.

whatever
just continue pumping out your lies mr.
You could make them less predictable though, it gets boring.

good grief! some of you have way too much time on your hands!! anyone volunteering to babysit while i get some studying done???

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bikergirl @ May 23 2008, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>good grief! some of you have way too much time on your hands!! anyone volunteering to babysit while i get some studying done???

I have a day off today after 50 hours work so far this week. And now I off for a bike ride.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 23 2008, 06:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And now I off for a bike ride.

i think that won't help bikermum very much, you'd just make her jealous!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ May 23 2008, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i think that won't help bikermum very much, you'd just make her jealous!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 23 2008, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have a day off today after 50 hours work so far this week. And now I off for a bike ride.
Git!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 23 2008, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Doo, I’m a bit puzzled here, seems like you concede some credence (in the general gist) of Lex's position (which I agree with in part also) but the rest seems to pander to those chasticing it as a fantastic imgination--you're not caving into peer pressure are you?

But can you really fault anyone for being doubtful? Even I frequently think to myself "Dorna can't even fix the sport let alone 'fix' the sport". It seems nearly impossible for them to successfully conspire without leaking information. But equally impossible is the idea that DORNA had several difficult meetings between all manufacturing companies involved (and Rossi), yet DORNA will have you believe they all walked happily away with a resolution to do nothing.

This theory started after Malaysia in 2007. For a solid month (probably longer in actuality) MotoGP did not have a tire supplier for the 2008 season. Both Michelin and Bridgestone threw in the towel b/c they hated the competitive environment. Yet when I eagerly awaited the changes to the rule books, they never arrived. Rossi got his way. Ezy tore the rule book in half so he could get his tires, and the fans got no transparency at all.

So I went in search of the changes. The trouble is when you go looking for something, coincidental occurrences leak into your results and appear to indicate causation.

I'm not sure what gentleman's agreement is being executed behind the scenes but I mean to find out.

BTW has anyone noticed that the winning tire at a particular circuit in 2007 is also the winning tire in 2008?

Qatar - Bridgestone
Jerez - Michelin
Estoril - Michelin
China - Bridgestone
LeMans - Bridgestone

If Michelin win this round with a non-pneumatic Honda, or a badly injured Pedrosa, I'm going to have to examine this phenomenon more closely.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 23 2008, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But can you really fault anyone for being doubtful?


So I went in search of the changes. The trouble is when you go looking for something, coincidental occurrences leak into your results and appear to indicate causation.
No - trust noone, let your instinct be the guide


Like I said, shoehorning, but you're wary of that, right?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 23 2008, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes, it requires a bit more to read between the lines, I have found that we all do it when it suits our biases. The kicker is those that used similar imagination as a battle cry all last year are now suddenly looking for a bona fide news report that confirms what we already know about businessmen and the world in general--people in power will always manipulate and medal, and make back room deals for ‘their’ benefit regardless of the duty for authenticity, fairness, and transparency that the masses deserve. They now demand to be shown a news article that quotes those in charge saying: 'Yup, we are making deals to increase revenue at the expense of fairness.' Truth is, I already know that racing is less a sport and more a business, so why do we get so flustered when we sense that some dealings are intended to promote viewership if that means promoting the popular? (I'm guilty too).

How can we really know the truth of more complicated and subtle underdealings, when we debate issues as simple and transparent as Rossi being the only ‘one’ to get Bridgestones as if there was some justification behind it when in reality is was nothing more than a simple business decision to appease and attract viewership; then crafted to ‘deflect’ from the stench of privilege and preferential treatment (not detected of course by the noses of some faithful fans). The irony of course is that now they claim to have the nose to sniff out fantastic conspiracy theory.


Jumkie, quick question buddy. Was the AMA motocross rigged to keep Carmichael at the top for so long? Surely there must have been something up with that, he kept winning. Surely RC wasnt winning all those races of his own accord?


Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 23 2008, 09:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Friend, that would best be answered by those that decidedly believed Casey's wins last year had something to do with his: tires, bike power, electronics, speed traps, etc. etc. (despite the fact that this list of variables also existed on the other Ducatis).

My answer: a prototype series, by its unique nature, can be much more heavily influenced by those in charge. As both followers of the unique aspects of motocross, you can see that this would hardly be the case, even if they gave others a head start.


Ok, but does a works crosser have anything (bar the silloutte) in common with an over the counter one? I may be wrong but I always thought that an off the shelf MX bike was a replica "base model" of what the big guys are riding, in the same way as a customer YZF 500 (Younger readers Google if need be) was the not the same bike as what Wayne or Eddie were riding.in I think if the "powers" wanted to influence the outcome of any motorsport then it is within their power. Anything is possible if we start to go too far down the conspiracy route.

I think the tyre issue has more to do with Rossi, (as the guy who dragged GP out of the wilderness and back into the publics livingrooms, and has won more than anyone else in the the modern era) having the clout to influence the tyre manufacturers into giving him what he wants than any of this conspiracy ...... If it was all about the politics and race fixing, then lets be honest, Phillip Morris (Ducati sponsor) and HRC (much bigger than Yamaha) would have more clout with the big stick to make changes to suit their own ends.

The guy wanted an even playing field, eg: the same tyres as Stoner, to take the fight to him. He got them, and since then the forum has gone from: "Whinger Rossi wants Stoners" tyres to "Ha Ha Rossi is ..... on 'Stones " to "It's all a conspiracy to make sure Rossi wins"

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 24 2008, 03:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Doo, I’m a bit puzzled here, seems like you concede some credence (in the general gist) of Lex's position (which I agree with in part also) but the rest seems to pander to those chasticing it as a fantastic imgination--you're not caving into peer pressure are you? It seems to me the most "ridiculous" sounding parts are coming from those others here on this thread (and the post-France-race thread) that can't accept perhaps that there are forces unseen that may influence 'their' rider performing so well; which is why your post is a bit confusing to me for the following reason: for the most part, it is the same people here chastising Lex for his "conspiracy theory" or at very least, "reading between the lines" for evidence of truth, as the same that gratuitously credited the current champ's bike or superior tires, etc. as the rationale for him winning (more specifically, for their boy losing). I find it rather dastardly, that now, people like Babel & Co. would not see any problem in believing fetched explanations when they had plenty the last two years.
No, not caving into peer pressure Jumkie. Maybe I should have worded it differently. For my part, I can see how this could possibly transpire but I think I don't want to see it. It saddens me that we could be treated with such contempt, (I hate being sold a lie even though I know it happens in lots of things in life).
Even Lex has stated how far fetched it may sound sound, but credit to him, he's not backing down on his theory even though lot's of people are giving stick to him here. It could be true, or it may not. As I've stated previously, I'm a big sceptic on why business' do things the way they do. Most business', (although not all) are there to make money and they're not shy from dodgy business practices in order to make a buck. I guess I'm just hoping this is all a ridiculous conspiracy theory, but it could very well be true.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ May 23 2008, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No - trust noone, let your instinct be the guide


Like I said, shoehorning, but you're wary of that, right?

I told you what you wanted to hear so you would shift from flaming to gloating.

I haven't seen a long-winded rant since.

My turn to gloat. I win.

Now back to work, I have some digging AND muckraking to do and you need to construct some long-winded rants rooted in denial. This honeymoon is over.

I was perfectly content to be silently smug, but NOOOOOOOOOOOO you had to keep nagging.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 23 2008, 11:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The works bike is first a showroom out of the box bike (one that me or you could buy from a dealer), then fitted with upgrades. Very similar to standard national series.



I'm not so sure GP was in the wilderness in a world pre-internet & pre-satellite global coverage for even exciting sports like golf. But, Yes agree, which again this was a business decision to award only him the tires, this is not what we would think of as even parity among equal treatment for all competitors.



Yes, I agree, this is ok. No problem so far with the statement:"The guy wanted an even playing field". Here is where the problem starts, when NOT EVERYBODY has the same opportunity to get that perceived "superior/equal" equipment. You said above, it was a bit of a payback for his years of winning and bringing popularity, the man is an icon in the sport, agree. Yet, in an authentic contest, the governing body is suppost to be NEUTRAL (regardless of past success or failure), if he got the tires, then it should have been available to everybody. It was not.

Now let me ask you, did we ever see a report that said: He got the tires because he is "the guy who dragged GP out of the wilderness and back into the publics livingrooms, and has won more than anyone else in the the modern era"? NO, so how would you and I conclude this? Because we are cerebral enough to ascertain truth beyond the official press release.

This is in part what Lex has tried to do (though I concede, its far more reaching than you & I may stomach) but really its of the same vein of what we use to ascertain truth beyond the official press release. Now we got people here demanding to read the official press release with quotes from the principles to tell us what?--that yes, the governing body sometimes makes (or refrains) from making changes that may influence outcomes. Yeah, I'd like to see the press release that Iraq was started for some less than lofty motives (as vindication of what I already think) but I'm not holding my breath for that official press release to be issued.

Were not gonna see these press releases any time soon mate. What Rossi has done by going to Bridgestone, is kick Michelin up the butt, and it's actually giving us closer racing IMO.

It's never gonna be perfect, it's a sport that is used by businesses to sell bikes run by a business who want to sell air time on tv. We can all vote with our feet and go to see grass roots racing at local circuits where the racing is possibly "purer" than at a higher level. However,even the local mechanic who races a CBR600 on a Sunday is pushing what he can legally use to race, it's human nature. Racers want to win races.


Yes Rossi used his influence to get the Stones, but to be honest, I don't see it as a conspiracy to fix the championship.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 24 2008, 12:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now let me ask you, did we ever see a report that said: He got the tires because he is "the guy who dragged GP out of the wilderness and back into the publics livingrooms, and has won more than anyone else in the the modern era"? NO, so how would you and I conclude this? Because we are cerebral enough to ascertain truth beyond the official press release.

At the end of the day Dorna is a business, out to make money. If the Doctor struggling for 2 seasons sees viewership/attendance down for the first time in years, someone's bound to sit up and take notice. If it IS Rossi bringing in the fans (and it would be short sighted to think otherwise for the majority of fans), and he's got 2 or 3 years left in him, then chances are that if they were in a position to get him what he wants, then they would have. It's business. You would do the same. In an ideal world the organisers would be neutral, yes, but they would be also a non-profit making organisation. Not the case here for sure.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 24 2008, 12:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, I'd like to see the press release that Iraq was started for some less than lofty motives (as vindication of what I already think) but I'm not holding my breath for that official press release to be issued.
Aren't you an ex army/navy/marines/whatever guy? Doesn't this kind of sentiment count as treason? I wouldn't like to see you getting executed. At least not before Roger's had his day at Laguna.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ May 24 2008, 09:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Were not gonna see these press releases any time soon mate. What Rossi has done by going to Bridgestone, is kick Michelin up the butt, and it's actually giving us closer racing IMO.

It's never gonna be perfect, it's a sport that is used by businesses to sell bikes run by a business who want to sell air time on tv. We can all vote with our feet and go to see grass roots racing at local circuits where the racing is possibly "purer" than at a higher level. However,even the local mechanic who races a CBR600 on a Sunday is pushing what he can legally use to race, it's human nature. Racers want to win races.


Yes Rossi used his influence to get the Stones, but to be honest, I don't see it as a conspiracy to fix the championship.

Pete
Agree completely with Pete. All that this has done is gotten Michelin off their complacent butts. If I wanted to buy into the 'conspiracy' I'd say Michelin got something out of Honda for producing that fantastic tyre for ROssi that fell apart in Shangai. And anyway for the first time Bridgestone are working with someone who's been at the top of the game for ages and can give them useful feedback to really work with. If you're a fan of competition, then this should go down well. With all due respect to Stoner (and Melandri for that matter) neither of them is much of a development rider. Stoner has no development experience. The bike he was handed last year was a bad beast and he made it work. Well done to him. He tamed it from race one and that being the case I hardly think it was the result of HIS hard work but rather of those that were there before him.
I rather think that this has messed with Stoner's head. Seeing them work on a decent qualifier with Rossi when he's always claimed not to need one must be killing him. Plus he knows (even though some on here will deny it till they're blue in the face) that at the end of the day, that he has not yet proved he's up to Rossi's standards and even though he's the current title holder, Rossi still carries more clout than him and will until Stoner's got a few more titles under his belt. He is insecure in his position and does not believe in his ability to repeat last year's achievement, otherwise he wouldn't have been stamping his foot at the thought of Rossi getting the Stones. With the way the michelins seem to be going this year, it wouldn't have made much difference- but if Stoner believed they made the difference then it was the best way to mess with his head that Rossi could come up with. Although, truth be told, if Rossi hadn't switched the Michelins probably wouldn't be so good this year at all. So yeah maybe there is a conspiracy of some sort, but the way I see it both manufacturers have rolled their sleeves up.