Four races, 3 1/2 different men win...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 21 2008, 11:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner also recently commented that the soft tires aren't soft anymore. They now last the race distance without wearing down the edges.

I think Rossi is still the only person to attempt running a soft tire in a race (Qatar). I'm pretty sure that soft tires have more or less been eliminated for budgetary reasons (Dorna told them to chuck soft tires to keep cornerspeeds down).
Sounds like stoner has been reading your posts.

He is already on record as saying there was a tyre conspiracy by michelin in 2006, and interestingly rossi now seems to agree with him.

I still believe stoner's current problems are more likely due to a stuff-up than a conspiracy, if for no other reason than I think dorna are too incompetent to successfully conspire.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ May 21 2008, 05:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sounds like stoner has been reading your posts.

He is already on record as saying there was a tyre conspiracy by michelin in 2006, and interestingly rossi now seems to agree with him.

I still believe stoner's current problems are more likely due to a stuff-up than a conspiracy, if for no other reason than I think dorna are too incompetent to successfully conspire.

Have you seen the racing lately? I'm not sure I would consider this a successfully executed conspiracy.

Really though, I struggle with the idea as well b/c it seems like there are too many people involved for a conspiracy to be executed.

I don't think the entire sport is fixed but I do think that the manufacturers like the safety of the operating agreements. I'm sure DORNA are happy to broker, as I mentioned before, collusion is implied in their mission statement and many instances of collusion that were once unthinkable are now common place in racing.

I know I talk a mess about the 2008 tires being born from conspiracy, in actuality they are not. I'm pretty sure Capirossi ran them with success at Sachsenring (when the B-stones melted) and Barros ran them in Mugello which is why he was the top Bridgestone finisher. Casey never ran them during the 2007 season and that's why he's struggling now.

I don't believe Ezy asked the fans which direction the sport should take with the tires. He ended overnight fly-ins and reduced the number of tire sets. Everyone revolted and the tire manufacturers spent themselves into oblivion---Bridgestone unable to expand, Michelin unwilling to continue. When the fans said no control tire Ezy had to hatch a scheme.

Things could not continue the direction they were heading. The most unrealistic scenario is that the manufacturers went into the technical meetings unhappy and disagreeable only to emerge after 3 weeks (3 sessions total I believe) resolute that no change was the solution.

Not at all possible. No substantial rules changes were added to the books. Logic suggests (rightly or wrongly) that something serious is going on behind scenes. The tires were the equipment in question they also seem the easiest to police, especially when you can observe overall tire performance from a single garage.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 22 2008, 02:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I know I talk a mess about the 2008 tires being born from conspiracy, in actuality they are not. I'm pretty sure Capirossi ran them with success at Sachsenring (when the B-stones melted) and Barros ran them in Mugello which is why he was the top Bridgestone finisher. Casey never ran them during the 2007 season and that's why he's struggling now.
This is what I think too.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ May 21 2008, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is what I think too.

It does lead to this question though: why can't B-stone run the 2008's and the 2007 compound specifications?

This is where I think the majority of the nonsense (that I like b/c I always wanted a control tire) is going on.

Michelin used to have two different tire families. Rossi was in charge of Yamaha development, somebody at Honda (Hayden in the recent past) tested what Honda asked for.

Has anybody seen Hayden running bogus practice times b/c of new tire problems. Colin isn't testing anymore either so who is in charge of the Yamaha tire mess?

I can nearly guarantee that one-off's made for particular riders have more or less been banned. The manufacturers can bring x number of unique compounds and those compounds have to be available to everyone, imo.

Therefore, B-stone cannot bring '08 & '07configurations and still remain under the limit so they have to choose to run the old stuff or the new stuff. Obviously, they are going to make sure Rossi has the medium tire he needs for the European rounds (the '08).

Reducing compound configurations as well as the number of tire sets would also explain the blanket tire recommendations for all runners of the same tire make.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 22 2008, 02:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. I can nearly guarantee that one-off's made for particular riders have more or less been banned. The manufacturers can bring x number of unique compounds and those compounds have to be available to everyone, imo.

2.Therefore, B-stone cannot bring '08 & '07configurations and still remain under the limit so they have to choose to run the old stuff or the new stuff. Obviously, they are going to make sure Rossi has the medium tire he needs for the European rounds (the '08).

3. Reducing compound configurations as well as the number of tire sets would also explain the blanket tire recommendations for all runners of the same tire make.
1. Both tyre companies still tailor tyres for individual riders - there was an interview on exactly that with Weber a couple of weeks ago, read it here. Doubtless those tailored tyres are available to all, but would anyone else want them?

2. The 40 tyre limit applies to a bike and rider over a weekend, not to the tyre manufacturers. Bridgestone can bring as many compounds/constructions as they want to a race so they could run 2007 and 2008 tyres if they or their customers want. As far as Rossi having tyres made that suit him, read the thread on Neil Spalding's article - it clearly shows that BStone have not yet made tyres for Rossi & the Yamaha, which is why Rossi and Burgess have had to alter the weight distribution of the bike so dramatically.

3. There is no rule reducing compound configurations.

That's exactly how I understand both rules and practice right now.

Lex with a more plausible speculation but still just a speculation and still highly unlikely.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 22 2008, 02:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It does lead to this question though: why can't B-stone run the 2008's and the 2007 compound specifications?

This is where I think the majority of the nonsense (that I like b/c I always wanted a control tire) is going on.

Michelin used to have two different tire families. Rossi was in charge of Yamaha development, somebody at Honda (Hayden in the recent past) tested what Honda asked for.

Has anybody seen Hayden running bogus practice times b/c of new tire problems. Colin isn't testing anymore either so who is in charge of the Yamaha tire mess?
I can nearly guarantee that one-off's made for particular riders have more or less been banned. The manufacturers can bring x number of unique compounds and those compounds have to be available to everyone, imo.

Therefore, B-stone cannot bring '08 & '07configurations and still remain under the limit so they have to choose to run the old stuff or the new stuff. Obviously, they are going to make sure Rossi has the medium tire he needs for the European rounds (the '08).

Reducing compound configurations as well as the number of tire sets would also explain the blanket tire recommendations for all runners of the same tire make.


I think all the manufacturers would like to be in a mess that gives you 3 wins out of 5 GP, and puts 3 of your bikes with 2 different tyre manufacturers on the podium at the last race, not to mention Lorenzo's run of pole positions. I bet Yamaha are looking at Ducati and Honda saying "why cant we be sorted out like these guys? why are we in this mess?"


Licking toads isnt always a good idea, sometimes altered perception is not a good thing......


Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 17 2008, 01:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> This entire thread has been about facts that I believe prove the situation.

I could go on for days.
Here's news for you....believing something....even if you really REALLY believe it, does not make it fact or prove anythying.
As for going on for days.....that's a fact and you've proved you can. See how it works??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ May 21 2008, 10:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Both tyre companies still tailor tyres for individual riders - there was an interview on exactly that with Weber a couple of weeks ago, read it here. Doubtless those tailored tyres are available to all, but would anyone else want them?

2. The 40 tyre limit applies to a bike and rider over a weekend, not to the tyre manufacturers. Bridgestone can bring as many compounds/constructions as they want to a race so they could run 2007 and 2008 tyres if they or their customers want. As far as Rossi having tyres made that suit him, read the thread on Neil Spalding's article - it clearly shows that BStone have not yet made tyres for Rossi & the Yamaha, which is why Rossi and Burgess have had to alter the weight distribution of the bike so dramatically.

3. There is no rule reducing compound configurations.

Yamaka, the article says they tailor compounds for TRACKS NOT RIDERS. Michelin used to make special tires for certain riders. The complete absence of a remark about rider tailoring convinces me they don't use that strategy anymore. Since Honda and Yamaha are both willing to pay for it, I'm certain it has been banned.

Why can't other people read between the lines?

"There are three variables we can change compound type, casing, and shape"

Really? The world's premier tire laboratory has just three variable categories? This is the powerpoint presentation they were given at the Dorna meetings last season. THIS IS THE NEW RULE.

Did you hear anything about progressive compounding, or special edge curvatures, or tire diameter, hell, he didn't even mention compound zones as a variable. Even that feature is offered in Michelin's street tires.

The tires are a constant compound now to reduce tire costs, level the field, and reduce overall performance in the future (or the present if you're Stoner). Constant compound means the tires are harder overall, like it says in the article.

It doesn't matter what the bike manufacturers do, b/c the suppliers control the compounds available for race. Dorna now has more control over the tire manufacturers.

This whole theory is really starting to come together. Thanks for the link. Now I know more specifically what Dorna told the tire manufacturers at the meetings.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 22 2008, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yamaka, the article says they tailor compounds for TRACKS NOT RIDERS. Michelin used to make special tires for certain riders. The complete absence of a remark about rider tailoring convinces me they don't use that strategy anymore. Since Honda and Yamaha are both willing to pay for it, I'm certain it has been banned.

Why can't other people read between the lines?
No it doesn't. The article does say that they tailor tyres for riders - see the bold parts below:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Tweaking the design of their tyres depending on the demands of the highly varied World Championship circuits and the specific needs of their individual riders, there are three main elements the tyre suppliers can alter, those being compound type, casing and shape.

As Weber explained in a recent chat with motogp.com in China, `It is quite a difficult process because we have to tailor-make the tyres from one track to another. The demands of the tracks depend on the amount of right or left corners and also depend on the nature of the asphalt, which may be more aggressive on the tyre. Then the tyre also has to match with the bike and the rider´s style in order to be as fast as possible.´
You apparently can't read the lines that are there, let alone between them.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 22 2008, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"There are three variables we can change compound type, casing, and shape"

Really? The world's premier tire laboratory has just three variable categories? This is the powerpoint presentation they were given at the Dorna meetings last season. THIS IS THE NEW RULE.

Did you hear anything about progressive compounding, or special edge curvatures, or tire diameter, hell, he didn't even mention compound zones as a variable. Even that feature is offered in Michelin's street tires.
All the things you mention fall into one of Webers 3 catagories :

Compounds covers : progressive compounding, compound zones
Shape covers : special edge curvatures, tire diameter

Remember this is dumbed down journo speak, like refering to the tyres as Hard, Medium and Soft. It's trying to get the concept across to the less techically minded.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 22 2008, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The tires are a constant compound now to reduce tire costs, level the field, and reduce overall performance in the future (or the present if you're Stoner). Constant compound means the tires are harder overall, like it says in the article.
The article says nothing of the sort. Nowhere in the article is there a statement that tyres are a constant compound, and it also does not state that the tyres are harder overall than last year. It does state that race tyres are (by their very nature) harder than qualifiers :

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>`We know that a qualifying tyre is more or less a starting point for a fast tyre, so we have to give as much consistency as possible to the race tyre in order to be used over 20 or 22 laps. That means we have to use some harder compounds, but the compounds should still be as soft as possible.´

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 22 2008, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It doesn't matter what the bike manufacturers do, b/c the suppliers control the compounds available for race. Dorna now has more control over the tire manufacturers.

This whole theory is really starting to come together. Thanks for the link. Now I know more specifically what Dorna told the tire manufacturers at the meetings.
Try reading the article without your "Conspiracy Glasses"^TM on. Your theory is still hogwash with no facts provided to support it. It also appears that when facts which do not support your theory are provided (eg this article) you try to deliberately mis-represent them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ May 22 2008, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Try reading the article without your "Conspiracy Glasses"^TM on.

Trademark..That cracked me up big time .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ May 22 2008, 11:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No it doesn't. The article does say that they tailor tyres for riders - see the bold parts below:

You apparently can't read the lines that are there, let alone between them.



All the things you mention fall into one of Webers 3 catagories :

Compounds covers : progressive compounding, compound zones
Shape covers : special edge curvatures, tire diameter

Remember this is dumbed down journo speak, like refering to the tyres as Hard, Medium and Soft. It's trying to get the concept across to the less techically minded.


The article says nothing of the sort. Nowhere in the article is there a statement that tyres are a constant compound, and it also does not state that the tyres are harder overall than last year. It does state that race tyres are (by their very nature) harder than qualifiers :




Try reading the article without your "Conspiracy Glasses"^TM on. Your theory is still hogwash with no facts provided to support it. It also appears that when facts which do not support your theory are provided (eg this article) you try to deliberately mis-represent them.

Obviously the article is dumbed down. It is prepared for Weber and then he rehearses it when he talks to the press. All major companies have press routines.

Some of the lines you are bolding have been carefully scripted by a linguist at Dorna. Some are Weber quotes that happen to further the ideas Dorna is trying to put forth. Don't forget Weber's quotes have been heavily edited. Dorna have perfected the fine art of saying what they always say without meaning what they always mean. They've scripted these releases for people like you. You need to find something that doesn't come straight from the conspirators mouth

They are talking about their customers as a whole. Perhaps one rider happens to get preference but they all get the same stuff.

Anyways, what I know that you may not know is that Pedrosa used to have his own front tire. He was in love with it and despite prodding from Michelin refused to give it up. It was removed from the Michelin line up and he was required to use the new "standard" Michelin profile. The first time he used it was at Jerez, it seemed to work pretty well for him, but it ain't the special Pedrosa one-off he's accustomed to.

Why would they tell Pedrosa he can't have his tire? It seems likely they would have discontinued his tire and its variations b/c it meant they couldn't bring more compounds for their other riders.

Why don't Bridgestone ever show up with the medium versions of the 07s and the 08s? Why did Bridgestone tell Casey to run the medium 08s despite the fact he hadn't replicated a single best 07 time?

If you can find me some answers that aren't on the DORNA site, I'd appreciate it.

Plus you missed a major Dorna slip up. They were so busy scripting their side of the article they glossed over a damning word in Weber's quotes.

"`It is quite a difficult process because we have to tailor-make the tyres from one track to another. The demands of the tracks depend on the amount of right OR left corners"

Thanks for letting the cat out of the bag Weber.

Multiple compound construction requires you to monitor the quantity and the corresponding g-loads of left AND right corners. A constant compound tire requires you to construct a tire based upon the number and g-loads of left OR OR OR OR right turns, based upon whichever requires the most durable compound.

Whoever wrote this should be fired. Ezy, I'm on to you.

I can't believe you are still trying to take the position that they had a serious tire crisis held 3 or 4 major technical meetings focused solely on tires, they threatened a control tire, and then they resolved to do everything exactly the same.

That's even more ludicrous than my conspiracies.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 22 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Some of the lines you are bolding have been carefully scripted by a linguist at Dorna.

That's it, im not reading another letter.
Lex, this is complete ......... Can we stop this nonsens now! For every silly conspiracy attempt you've tried, others have shown you why it's not so, often with hard evidence and actual facts, but you obviously won't listen. Now, I don't care if you're off your medication and don't listen, but could you PLEASE stop writing about this before others must start medication from listening to this rubbish?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 22 2008, 03:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's it, im not reading another letter.
Lex, this is complete ......... Can we stop this nonsens now! For every silly conspiracy attempt you've tried, others have shown you why it's not so, often with hard evidence and actual facts, but you obviously won't listen. Now, I don't care if you're off your medication and don't listen, but could you PLEASE stop writing about this before others must start medication from listening to this rubbish?



If ........ involves an english speaking DORNA employee or official, writing an article on motogp.com, then I will continue to speak only .........

It only sounds bad b/c you think the sport is still being run the same way.

Once you make the giant logical leap to realizing there is no possible way they could be administering the tire rules the same way they did last year, you can go looking for interesting stuff.

You can sit on the couch and arm-chair quarterback the inevitable demise of the ridiculous position you have taken, or you can come up with an alternate explanation for the anomalies. I don't care which, it won't change the slightly less pathetic attempt DORNA are making at running this relatively boring premier championship series.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 23 2008, 08:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If ........ involves an english speaking DORNA employee or official, writing an article on motogp.com, then I will continue to speak only .........
Can't argue there. DORNA does talk a load of .... and it's not written in stone that they make any rule changes for the fans (or the riders for that matter).
I see Lex's point because big business' are there primarily to make money, not for any other reason even though they may state otherwise. Proving it is a whole new thing and copping .... about it is par for the course. One thing Lex, even though I disagree with you a fair bit, you can see how ridiculous it all sounds but keep putting forward your argument. I've been reading it with interest, but then again I like a good conspiracy theory.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 22 2008, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Obviously the article is dumbed down. It is prepared for Weber and then he rehearses it when he talks to the press. All major companies have press routines.

Some of the lines you are bolding have been carefully scripted by a linguist at Dorna. Some are Weber quotes that happen to further the ideas Dorna is trying to put forth. Don't forget Weber's quotes have been heavily edited. Dorna have perfected the fine art of saying what they always say without meaning what they always mean. They've scripted these releases for people like you. You need to find something that doesn't come straight from the conspirators mouth
Bollocks. WTF makes you think that Michelin would let Dorna edit their press releases? Take the "conspiracy glasses"^TM off FFS.

BTW .... off with the "people like you" ..... Have you been a consultant engineer for the last 15 years. No? Thought not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 22 2008, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>They are talking about their customers as a whole. Perhaps one rider happens to get preference but they all get the same stuff.

Anyways, what I know that you may not know is that Pedrosa used to have his own front tire. He was in love with it and despite prodding from Michelin refused to give it up. It was removed from the Michelin line up and he was required to use the new "standard" Michelin profile. The first time he used it was at Jerez, it seemed to work pretty well for him, but it ain't the special Pedrosa one-off he's accustomed to.

Why would they tell Pedrosa he can't have his tire? It seems likely they would have discontinued his tire and its variations b/c it meant they couldn't bring more compounds for their other riders.

Why don't Bridgestone ever show up with the medium versions of the 07s and the 08s? Why did Bridgestone tell Casey to run the medium 08s despite the fact he hadn't replicated a single best 07 time?
Give me some bloody facts to support this drivel re. "I know something you don't". Or is this the school yard?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 22 2008, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you can find me some answers that aren't on the DORNA site, I'd appreciate it.
Find me some facts that match your theories. I've done my bit, you just don't seem to have sufficient IQ to realise it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ May 22 2008, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Bollocks. WTF makes you think that Michelin would let Dorna edit their press releases? Take the "conspiracy glasses"^TM off FFS.

Because Dorna published it? I dunno maybe it's the other way around. Maybe Michelin edits Dorna's press releases.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>BTW .... off with the "people like you" ..... Have you been a consultant engineer for the last 15 years. No? Thought not.

What has that got to do with bike racing? I'm not saying you're stupid, I'm saying you're loyal.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Give me some bloody facts to support this drivel re. "I know something you don't". Or is this the school yard?


Find me some facts that match your theories. I've done my bit, you just don't seem to have sufficient IQ to realise it.

This isn't the schoolyard it's much worse; this is the INTERNET.

I've given plenty of facts that I believe provide sufficient circumstantial evidence. I know no one likes circumstantial evidence but this isn't a criminal trial so it's fair game. Whether or not you believe the facts match my theories is the part that's up for debate.

Let me briefly give you a no BS version of all the things I've said.

Theory: DORNA have been fixing the early rounds of the championship.

Assessment: Weak. Not a lot of evidence to support it. China is really the only good example of a race the was set up for Rossi to win. That hardly constitutes fixing 4 rounds. Melandri's sudden pace after being off the charts awful all weekend was further reinforcement that their is some tire fixing going on. Melandri probably got the hard 07s b/c Ducati pitched a fit that they might be midpacking and backmarking at their strong circuit.

Theory: DORNA have limited the number of compound variations and they have instituted uniform or constant compound.

Assessment: Very Plausible. B-stone never have supplies of the medium 07's and 08's at the European rounds. They required Stoner to run the 08 compound at China despite the fact he was moving at a snails pace. Tires have always been getting softer and more durable, yet the latest Dorna release says that harder tires are the way forward To what?---the safer, slower sport they tried to make in 2007. The tire manufacturers make blanket tire recommendation to all of their customers.

Theory: Ezy made these changes because the current world champion is a small market rider on a small market team.

Assessment: Highly plausible. Dorna do everything for marketing. When Ezy realized that Ducati/Stoner would probably bite the bullet I'm sure he didn't even bat an eye. Maybe if Hayden goes to Ducati in 2009 it will bring some much needed marketing clout to the little Bolognese outfit. Was Ezy really going to pass up another opportunity to help Vale? I'm sure Carmela would die to have Rossi win in three different formulas, for two different manufacturers, for both tire manufacturers. What a legend! Sad it won't be legit.

Theory: DORNA have instituted a de facto control tire.

Assessment: Very weak. It seems odd that the soft compound tires have all but vanished. It seems odd that people on the same bike on the same tire compounds finish right next to one another at a Michelin track. It seems like FIAT Yamaha is the perfect place to police telemetry since the bikes are nearly identical. Alas, no solid evidence yet, other than the propaganda machine kicking out a report about FIAT Yamaha being very careful not to let data leak. Duh, Lorenzo and Rossi don't want to give the other an edge. Smacks of a cover up imo.

Theory: Motogp.com is a propaganda machine

Assessment: Nearly fact. Articles that state the tire manufacturers are doing everything the same. Articles declaring Ducati are puzzled and lost this season, when they didn't miss an apex in 2007. Redundant articles stating that teammates don't want to share highly secretive race data.

Theory: They made major changes to the tires rules for 2008 that aren't in the rule book.

Assessment: Vague, but guaranteed. Underhanded deals are in DORNA's freakin mission statement

Theory: DORNA made an unprecedented move by using the rule book to obtain tires for one rider on the grid.

Assessment: Oh yeah, that part is fact. It was the only part that couldn't be covered up no matter how hard they tried. So they just pretended like that is the way they've always done things :gulp: maybe that is the way they've always done things.

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